Martin neck bow

ToneControl · July 2021

AlbertC said:

I bought a brand new Martin 00-18 in April. The neck/action was fine when I bought it.
I picked it up today having not touched it for about 3 or 4 weeks and immediately saw the action has become very high (5mm+ on low E) and the neck has clearly bowed. Should I be concerned with a sudden shift like this? My other acoustics (kept in the same room) are all fine.
Presumably the shop I bought it would remedy this for free but it's probably a 2 hour 30 min round trip. Should I just by the necessary truss rod adjustment tool and do it myself?

We've had extremely high humidity at some points over the last few weeks

As a long term tactic, you should have a truss rod tool for each of your guitars, because adjustments will be necessary, and driving for hours to make an adjustment is a bit like driving 3 hours to get someone to change the wiper blades on your car

As far as I understand, manufacturers expect guitarists to make normal adjustments to truss rods, hence making them user-accessible. I adjust the truss rod on almost every new guitar I buy, once I have let it settle down in my house for a few days (unless it's way out).
Larrivee included a truss rod tool with every guitar I bought, as do many other manufacturers.

As a short term thing: it seems most likely that the guitar was stored somewhere dry before you bought it. The first thing the shop would do is try tightening the truss rod, that's its function. Watch youtube videos of people examining neck relief, look down the neck from the headstock, compare it with your other guitars, is it like other examples? Tighten it 1/8 of a turn, then look again.

btw have you changed the strings for a higher gauge? Just checking

The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors

Personally I've recently decided that two 1 hour journeys to drop off and collect a guitar just to get the nut slots tweaked to stop sticking is a waste of time and money, and I bought a set of nut slot files. I think anyone with a few guitars should buy a set, if they are DIY-minded. However, that's a world away from truss rod adjustment, any guitarist should be able to understand and use the tools to adjust neck relief, and the action on an electric.

As our expert ICBM says, adjusting the saddle on an acoustic is a couple of levels up from tweaking the truss rod. Basically because it's not as reversible. It's still pretty simple though, but easier to get wrong.

If you're not used to assessing the gap with the relief test by eye, try this:
Put the guitar flat on your lap, fret first string (bottom E) with left little finger
fret first fret after the body join with right little finger
tap around halfway in between with either thumb
do this on all your guitars, get a feel for what is normal (which is that it makes a tapping noise, but with very little movement)
then try it on this new guitar, if it's a lot further down before the thumb tap reaches the fret, then the relief is too high. As I said, you can look down the neck and see this too, compare it with your functioning guitars

I'd recommend tweaking the truss rod. Also getting a hygrometer to monitor humidity in your guitar room

ToneControl · July 2021

re: myths

crunchman · July 2021

Adjusting a truss rod isn't hard. Make sure you get the right tool though. You don't want to damage the nut.

Do it an 8th of a turn at a time, and see what it looks like.

I do slacken the strings a bit if I'm tightening the rod, but I might be being over cautious there.

I did get a bit nervous adjusting the rod on a Custom Shop Tele once, but that was because it was a vintage style body end adjustment, and I had to loosen the neck screws to get at the adjustment.

malcolmkindness · July 2021

It always amazes me how quickly this type of discussion drifts off course, let's try and bring it back on.

The OP has a practically brand new Martin which, over the past three weeks, has developed a significant action problem. He wonders if he should try to adjust the truss rod himself as he considers a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop to be a lot of trouble. An "expert" on here says an emphatic yes, so now we have a discussion about the means and the merits of adjusting truss rods rather than wondering what might actually be causing the problem.

I have been playing acoustic guitar for nearly sixty years and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to adjust a truss rod, if I bring a guitar to a country with a significantly different climate, for example. As a general rule a well set up guitar should not require regular truss rod adjustments unless the environment is altered dramatically.

The OP seems to have lost interest in this discussion already, but if he is still around, I would strongly recommend returning the guitar to the shop and having an expert look at it and hopefully diagnose the problem.

malcolmkindness · July 2021

"The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors."

As I have said before, this is fine if you have a cheap second hand guitar and want to make it more playable, but the OP is talking about a Martin 0018 less than three months old, bought new from a shop!

ToneControl · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

"The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors."

As I have said before, this is fine if you have a cheap second hand guitar and want to make it more playable, but the OP is talking about a Martin 0018 less than three months old, bought new from a shop!

I've done more adjustments than that on brand new, more expensive guitars
All down to the individual, but I wouldn't go on a 3 or 4 hour round trip to get basic adjustments done

crunchman · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

"The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors."

As I have said before, this is fine if you have a cheap second hand guitar and want to make it more playable, but the OP is talking about a Martin 0018 less than three months old, bought new from a shop!

New guitars can take a while to settle in. There may also have been a change in atmospheric conditions. Maybe the shop was storing the guitar in a cold, dry warehouse, and the OP's house is quite humid.

Checking the neck relief, and adjusting the truss rod if necessary, is the sensible thing to do. If he checks the neck relief, and it turns out that the truss rod doesn't need adjusting, then there is definitely a problem, and it needs to go back.

He also needs to check that there isn't significant bellying of the top.

However, the likelihood is that a truss rod adjustment will go a long way towards fixing it.

It's possible the saddle will need a reduction in height as well. Guitars tend to come from the factory with a reasonably high action and the manufacturers will err on the side of the saddle being a bit high. Some players like their action high, and it's easy to take material off of a saddle if necessary. To raise the action you would ideally need a new saddle, which is much more of an issue, so they generally come new with the saddle quite high, with room to reduce it if necessary.

It's very unlikely for a new Martin to have a structural problem, and almost certain that this can be fixed through a combination of a truss rod adjustment and the saddle height being reduced if necessary. If the OP is happy to drive for two and half hours and spend twice as much on fuel as a truss rod wrench would cost, then that's his prerogative, but if it was me, I'd give it a tweak myself first. As others have said repeatedly in this thread, every guitarist should learn how to check relief and adjust a truss rod. It's not difficult.

ToneControl · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

It always amazes me how quickly this type of discussion drifts off course, let's try and bring it back on.

The OP has a practically brand new Martin which, over the past three weeks, has developed a significant action problem. He wonders if he should try to adjust the truss rod himself as he considers a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop to be a lot of trouble. An "expert" on here says an emphatic yes, so now we have a discussion about the means and the merits of adjusting truss rods rather than wondering what might actually be causing the problem.

I have been playing acoustic guitar for nearly sixty years and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to adjust a truss rod, if I bring a guitar to a country with a significantly different climate, for example. As a general rule a well set up guitar should not require regular truss rod adjustments unless the environment is altered dramatically.

The OP seems to have lost interest in this discussion already, but if he is still around, I would strongly recommend returning the guitar to the shop and having an expert look at it and hopefully diagnose the problem.

I wouldn't think it was appropriate to diminish someone's expertise by the use of inverted commas after he has been working in that job for 30 years, and given that he is widely respected by many. If the OP lived considerably further North, and followed your advice, it would be ICBM being the expert in the shop who was then asked to check the guitar, Getting free advice on here from him is very generous

malcolmkindness · July 2021

ToneControl said:

malcolmkindness said:

"The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors."

As I have said before, this is fine if you have a cheap second hand guitar and want to make it more playable, but the OP is talking about a Martin 0018 less than three months old, bought new from a shop!

I've done more adjustments than that on brand new, more expensive guitars
All down to the individual, but I wouldn't go on a 3 or 4 hour round trip to get basic adjustments done

He actually stated "a 2 1/2 hour round trip" and we have no way of knowing that it requires only a basic adjustment, it sounds quite serious to me in a brand new guitar!

malcolmkindness · July 2021

ToneControl said:

malcolmkindness said:

It always amazes me how quickly this type of discussion drifts off course, let's try and bring it back on.

The OP has a practically brand new Martin which, over the past three weeks, has developed a significant action problem. He wonders if he should try to adjust the truss rod himself as he considers a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop to be a lot of trouble. An "expert" on here says an emphatic yes, so now we have a discussion about the means and the merits of adjusting truss rods rather than wondering what might actually be causing the problem.

I have been playing acoustic guitar for nearly sixty years and I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to adjust a truss rod, if I bring a guitar to a country with a significantly different climate, for example. As a general rule a well set up guitar should not require regular truss rod adjustments unless the environment is altered dramatically.

The OP seems to have lost interest in this discussion already, but if he is still around, I would strongly recommend returning the guitar to the shop and having an expert look at it and hopefully diagnose the problem.

I wouldn't think it was appropriate to diminish someone's expertise by the use of inverted commas after he has been working in that job for 30 years, and given that he is widely respected by many. If the OP lived considerably further North, and followed your advice, it would be ICBM being the expert in the shop who was then asked to check the guitar, Getting free advice on here from him is very generous

If the free advice without seeing the guitar, is the one word "yes" then I think I'll pass thank you.

malcolmkindness · July 2021

crunchman said:

malcolmkindness said:

"The best first step with an issue like this is to do research and ask for advice, which is what you have done. Happily nowadays you can watch youtube videos on stuff to reduce risk of misunderstandings and errors."

As I have said before, this is fine if you have a cheap second hand guitar and want to make it more playable, but the OP is talking about a Martin 0018 less than three months old, bought new from a shop!

New guitars can take a while to settle in. There may also have been a change in atmospheric conditions. Maybe the shop was storing the guitar in a cold, dry warehouse, and the OP's house is quite humid.

Checking the neck relief, and adjusting the truss rod if necessary, is the sensible thing to do. If he checks the neck relief, and it turns out that the truss rod doesn't need adjusting, then there is definitely a problem, and it needs to go back.

He also needs to check that there isn't significant bellying of the top.

However, the likelihood is that a truss rod adjustment will go a long way towards fixing it.

It's possible the saddle will need a reduction in height as well. Guitars tend to come from the factory with a reasonably high action and the manufacturers will err on the side of the saddle being a bit high. Some players like their action high, and it's easy to take material off of a saddle if necessary. To raise the action you would ideally need a new saddle, which is much more of an issue, so they generally come new with the saddle quite high, with room to reduce it if necessary.

It's very unlikely for a new Martin to have a structural problem, and almost certain that this can be fixed through a combination of a truss rod adjustment and the saddle height being reduced if necessary. If the OP is happy to drive for two and half hours and spend twice as much on fuel as a truss rod wrench would cost, then that's his prerogative, but if it was me, I'd give it a tweak myself first. As others have said repeatedly in this thread, every guitarist should learn how to check relief and adjust a truss rod. It's not difficult.

I think it's safe to say that most of us know all of this already, but that's not really the point. Every time I have bought a brand new guitar, the shop has invited me to come back after six months for a free setup. If a problem has developed in the first few months of ownership, it is the responsibility of the shop to put it right whether it is a simple adjustment or a full replacement because the instrument has a serious fault.

drofluf · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

<snip>

I think it's safe to say that most of us know all of this already, but that's not really the point. Every time I have bought a brand new guitar, the shop has invited me to come back after six months for a free setup. If a problem has developed in the first few months of ownership, it is the responsibility of the shop to put it right whether it is a simple adjustment or a full replacement because the instrument has a serious fault.

I think this is the salient point; it’s a new guitar. Adjusting a truss rod is easy and something any guitarist should be comfortable doing. But I accept others may prefer to have a professional do it. Plus, as I said it’s a new instrument.

If you give me a pile of parts I’m perfectly comfortable turning them into a bicycle (yet to build a wheel though) but if I have a new bike I take up the shop’s free service. Similarly when my 2015 Martin needed adjustment I got out the Allen key and gave it a tweak - but given I got it at Oxfam I doubt I’d have had much luck if I’d taken it back to the shop lol:

Kilgore · July 2021

The OP has chosen not to respond, which suggests he has resolved the issue himself, will return the guitar to the retailer or has decided we are bunch of contrarian idiots whose advice cannot be relied upon either way.

WezV · July 2021

Guitars are most likely to need adjustments at certain points in their life

When they are new and settling in
When you make a drastic change to setup/string gauge
when there environment (humidity and temperature) changes significantly

I would fully expect to adjust the truss rod on a 3 month old acoustic. I would expect to do it less often as the guitar ages and settles in

you never used to need to worry about seasonal changes in most of the UK, but it does seem that the swings are getting more noticeable. In other parts of the world its not uncommon to need a summer and winter saddle. Those touring with classical string instruments often carry bridges of different heights for the same reason

Its perfectly safe to adjust a truss rod as long as you always use the correct tool, and never force. I always loosen before tightening just to ensure the rod isn't seized. You can also loosen string tension and make tiny adjustments at a time, but these are belt and braces precautions that most who are familiar with a truss rod wont need to bother with.

the most common damage you see is a worn adjustment nut from someone not following the above advice

meltedbuzzbox · July 2021

Jesus wept some of the replies on this thread...

guitarjack66 · July 2021

It sounds like this guitar might be expensive therefore having an experienced person take a look at it might be the safest idea. I imagine most Martin guitars are north of 1k and I personally wouldnt tinker with anything so expensive.

maltingsaudio · July 2021

This is a good read!

My tuppence on it is:

The confidence to assess and adjust a guitar comes from experience, if you spend your whole life doing it then there is very little mystery, if you have only possessed one guitar and have sold your soul to get it then it’s only reasonable to be very cautious, seek advice and get help when you feel the need to have something done. Once having been mentored then crack on and do it yourself or not.

Adjusting a truss Rod is nothing to be scared of, however due to the stories and myths that abound it can seem this way. These fears can only be allayed by actually doing it and getting the experience. I would suggest that there are as many on here who spend their time tinkering with their guitars as there are those who daren’t. And if you ask these people who do, I expect they will say they were bricking it first time they took an Allen key to a truss Rod .

Finally quick word on Martin Guitar lifetime warranty. I actually know someone who had a neck reset done under their warranty after 25/30 years of owning one in the UK. Original receipt proving sole ownership was provided at the time and Martin weren’t happy but did end up paying!

Mellish · August 2021

I'd go back to the store. As it is you have a year's warranty or what's left of it, so that you're covered if it's more serious than thought. But if you do try a diy fix and it goes badly wrong, you won't have a leg to stand on. Just my opinion.

AlbertC · August 2021

Gosh, I missed that this thread had carried on collecting posts including a bit of handbags.

To update it the situation, being under warranty I decided to take it back to the shop (I happened to be headed that way on another matter so it made sense). I left it with them for a couple of hours and came back but I wasn't at all happy that after the adjustment they made that the action was as good as it was before - the neck still didn't look right to me. Something else they actually mentioned was that the fingerboard seemed to had swollen slightly so it was a little bit proud of the neck on both sides.
They said they would send the guitar back to Martin and have it sorted out - put in a drying room. It's still with Martin at the moment. Martin have apparently reported back the guitar has - I think it was -11% humidity. I have no idea what a normal % would be so I don't know if that's really bad or what.
I didn't think I had a humid house and I've certainly never had another guitar suffering with a similar problem in 15 years here.

Jalapeno · August 2021

Good luck !

malcolmkindness · August 2021

Well done, that was the correct course of action. I'm still amazed at the number of people who vehemently disagreed with me when I suggested it on the day of your first post.
I hope it works out for you in the end.

Mellish · August 2021

The Martin factory advises 45-55% humidity. mate.

drofluf · August 2021

Mellish said:

The Martin factory advises 45-55% humidity. mate.

That’s for the air, I think the 11% figure quoted was for the wood. If I understand correctly wood for guitars should be in the range 6-9%.

Mellish · August 2021

Oh right. Well it seems a low figure which made me think it didn't need drying out. I keep my Martin at 50% humidity and 72F.

Mellish · August 2021

@drofluf. Yes, you're right. I misunderstood the OP.

Hottubes · August 2021

If you're going to do it yourself, you only turn it a fraction at a time either way.

boogieman · September 2021

Gibson include a truss rod tool and instructions on how to do the adjustment (or at least they certainly did with the last two Gibsons I’ve had). So they obviously expect an owner to be able to do the job themselves.

malcolmkindness · November 2021

This has been such a controversial topic I would love to know if it was ever resolved?

BillDL · November 2021

So would I. I wasn't here at the inception, but it was bumped up the recent list again from your comment and I've just read through every comment. I have always approached advice on anything from the angle of assuming that the person asking a question has little or no experience in the subject being asked about and never to assume that he or she is as conversant as I am if I have the prerequisite knowledge or skill to answer the question or offer guidance. It is far easier in the long run to establish the person's level of skill and knowledge first and then tailor an answer based on that person's self-assessment, or else give a full and comprehensive answer at the outset in the full knowledge that the person asking might already know many of the absolute basics being suggested and can simply choose to skip forward until he or she reaches the point of learing something new.

bugileman · November 2021

Jeez the hostile responses were totally unnecessary! Just a guy asking for advice, who clearly doesn't have much experience.

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