Query failed: connection to localhost:9312 failed (errno=111, msg=Connection refused). Martin McGuinness RIP - Tributes Discussions on The Fretboard
UNPLANNED DOWNTIME: 12th Oct 23:45

Martin McGuinness RIP

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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Drew_TNBD said:
    lonestar said:
    Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    How does one shitty set of actions justify another shitty set of actions? I'd really fucking love to know that.
    I suppose it doesn't, really. 

    But to use WW2 as the example... when Germany rampaged across Europe they were stopped, by force. 

    When the Brits kept trying to take Ireland they were met by Irishmen who stood up for themselves. 

    My question to you is - can a nation not defend itself against an invading force? 
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 15285
    edited March 2017
    Drew_TNBD said:
    If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

    History is fun!
    Actually ,if you want to go back the Normans were not French (there were no FRENCH as such ) Burgundians , Alsatians were all at war with one another - the Normans were of Viking descent as was Harold Godwinson and Tostig the Viking pretender to the Crown of England 
     An interesting historical fact is that once Landed at Hastings Harold sent messenger envoys to William asking if he wouldn't mind staying put and waiting for him to come and join battle as he was busy in the North of England quelling a Viking rebellion  under Tostig .William was a gent and duly obliged whilst his troops ran around for 4 months pillaging Sussex.
     The biggest threat to William was that on the very same day he landed at Hastings Harald Hadrada ,a Dane Viking ,landed in Kent with a force ready to March on England and Harold Godwinson .Both Harold and William pointed out that it was a tad inconvenient and would he mind awfully postponing ;they  asked him to leave and come back for another attempt some time in the not too distant future -and he obliged !
      THE POINT OF THE STORY  AND RELEVANCE TO THE MCGUINNESS ISSUE IS THAT HISTORY AND POLITICS ARE NOT CLEAR CUT
    NOR HOW WE ARE TAUGHT AT SCHOOL;
    MANDELA, ARAFAT,BEGIN,TOPRAK,TITO,ASSAD, etc all TERRORISTS /FREEDOM-FIGHTERS depending on your perspective but all Poachers turned Gamekeepers and legitimised.
     Most of the British Empire was "captured"initially by Pirates/Privateers inc Raleigh and Drake who were able to buy favour with respective royalty by cherry picking the spoils and giving the rump to the Empire.Like Conquistadores they were also "terrorists "
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 69426
    lonestar said:

    Must have been a very eye opening way of life for him. I assume he returned safely?
    Yes - there was no trouble then. But you're right about eye-opening - he was never entirely unsympathetic to the Republicans even at the height of the IRA terror campaign, even though he thought they shouldn't have targeted civilians.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • martmart Frets: 5165
    I keep trying to come up with an analogy for a murderer being allowed to turn to politics.

    He was a changed man, apparently. Ah, so that's OK then lol. Like Dirty Den but a bit dirtier.

    A rapist turning to social work? Hmm. Needs work I think.
    It's not easy, but for me I think the answer is in Ian Paisley. He wasn't exactly a soft-hearted bleeding-heart liberal, was he. If *he* came to the conclusion that it was better to work with McGuinness than continue to condemn him, then I'm inclined to trust him.
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  • lonestar said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    lonestar said:
    Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    How does one shitty set of actions justify another shitty set of actions? I'd really fucking love to know that.
    I suppose it doesn't, really. 

    But to use WW2 as the example... when Germany rampaged across Europe they were stopped, by force. 

    When the Brits kept trying to take Ireland they were met by Irishmen who stood up for themselves. 

    My question to you is - can a nation not defend itself against an invading force? 
    I'm not disagreeing that British history is sullied with the blood of many innocent people, but I am at a loss to see attacking innocent civilians hundreds of miles away in England is "defence" "against an invading force".

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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    edited March 2017

    who's side R U on ?

    Today's Daily Mail - Irish edition v UK edition pic.twitter.com/c72MiwOdP4


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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    lonestar said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    lonestar said:
    Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    How does one shitty set of actions justify another shitty set of actions? I'd really fucking love to know that.
    I suppose it doesn't, really. 

    But to use WW2 as the example... when Germany rampaged across Europe they were stopped, by force. 

    When the Brits kept trying to take Ireland they were met by Irishmen who stood up for themselves. 

    My question to you is - can a nation not defend itself against an invading force? 
    I'm not disagreeing that British history is sullied with the blood of many innocent people, but I am at a loss to see attacking innocent civilians hundreds of miles away in England is "defence" "against an invading force".
    I suppose you can imagine how the Irish felt when the first invading British army arrived.

    An army from a country a couple of hundred of miles away starts murdering Irish men, women and children for resisting, for speaking their own language, for playing their own sports, for having their own way of life. 
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 15285
    Or engineering a famine.........
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    AliGorie said:

    who's side R U on ?

    Today's Daily Mail - Irish edition v UK edition pic.twitter.com/c72MiwOdP4

    http://https//pbs.twimg.com/media/C7gsyt4XQAA-efu.jpg:large

    It's not as black and white as that, I'm afraid. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 69426
    AliGorie said:

    who's side R U on ?

    Today's Daily Mail - Irish edition v UK edition

    So it's not only a disgraceful hate-stirring right-wing rag, it's a hypocritical one too. Who would have imagined that?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Bidley said:
    Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?
    Peace has thankfully got a hold just now, yes. It's wonderful. Pity that the media isn't picking up on that, are they...
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6284
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

    History is fun!
    The Normans weren't French, they were Normans (who were southern Scandinavians). 
    They were from Normandy. Which is in France. Back in the day I don't think they referred to themselves as French though. It was all much more fragmented.
    The Norman invaders of Britain were direct escendants (only 3 or 4 of generations) from Rollo and his original viking settlers, who were given Normandy by Charles III (aka Charles The Simple) to defend Paris from further viking attacks.
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 15285
    edited March 2017
    Jalapeno said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

    History is fun!
    The Normans weren't French, they were Normans (who were southern Scandinavians). 
    They were from Normandy. Which is in France. Back in the day I don't think they referred to themselves as French though. It was all much more fragmented.
    The Norman invaders of Britain were direct escendants (only 3 or 4 of generations) from Rollo and his original viking settlers, who were given Normandy by Charles III (aka Charles The Simple) to defend Paris from further viking attacks.
    See my point above but the pacification of Charles 111 Danegelt/ Normandy gift was pointless -the Vikings reneged on the agreement within 18 months and attacked Paris by the Seine route led by Tostig (i think )
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  • BidleyBidley Frets: 2890
    lonestar said:
    Bidley said:
    Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?
    Peace has thankfully got a hold just now, yes. It's wonderful. Pity that the media isn't picking up on that, are they...
    That's not what I asked though...
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    So - Empire2 - who's is it ?.
    yeah - Normandy = Norse 
    DNA holds the secrets
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 2999
    lonestar said:
    Bidley said:
    Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?
    Peace has thankfully got a hold just now, yes. It's wonderful. Pity that the media isn't picking up on that, are they...
    Peace doesn't sell papers, and people would rather be outraged than anything else. Google srop funding hate,,an organisation worth supporting.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Bidley said:
    lonestar said:
    Bidley said:
    Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?
    Peace has thankfully got a hold just now, yes. It's wonderful. Pity that the media isn't picking up on that, are they...
    That's not what I asked though...

    Bidley said:
    Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?
    Yes, a peaceful agenda is being pushed in Northern Ireland
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    lonestar said:
    I keep trying to come up with an analogy for a murderer being allowed to turn to politics.

    He was a changed man, apparently. Ah, so that's OK then lol. Like Dirty Den but a bit dirtier.

    A rapist turning to social work? Hmm. Needs work I think.
    Do we REALLY have to remind you of some basic history here? Several points and paragraphs have been written in this thread by people who have a basic grasp of what happened. I'm not repeating myself for you. Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    Well that made it perfectly OK to bomb shopping centres and town centres killing innocent women and children.

    Glad that's cleared up now.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 2999
    No of course it didn't, but if you start a war you cannot expect to suffer no casualties , Ireland is a lot closer to home than say Iraq, that's what happens in wars, tell me, why is Tony Blair still a free man?
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 3106
    for the same reason george bush is a freeman
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    Did the British actually declare war? Wasn't aware of it. 
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Richardj said:
    lonestar said:
    I keep trying to come up with an analogy for a murderer being allowed to turn to politics.

    He was a changed man, apparently. Ah, so that's OK then lol. Like Dirty Den but a bit dirtier.

    A rapist turning to social work? Hmm. Needs work I think.
    Do we REALLY have to remind you of some basic history here? Several points and paragraphs have been written in this thread by people who have a basic grasp of what happened. I'm not repeating myself for you. Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    Well that made it perfectly OK to bomb shopping centres and town centres killing innocent women and children.

    Glad that's cleared up now.
    Don't be so facetious. You know very well what is being said in all of this.

    The UK government made it quite clear they, by their actions, that they wanted control of a country that wasn't theirs. Did you expect the Irish to fight back with their feather dusters?

    Im guessing you live in England, so you probably don't know any of what has actually happened here. I suggest you read some history about Ireland. You think it was harsh that the IRA targeted destinations in England? Of course it was and I'm not for one moment agreeing with any of the violence at all. But I think only one person has actually acknowledged, in this thread, how vile the Brits have been over the last 150 years towards the Irish.

    Problem is, the Irish are close and they hit back. I think you should read back through the thread to see some of the history. 
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22443
    lonestar said:
     how vile the Brits have been over the last 150 years towards the Irish.
    Why should someone born in 1984 have to even think about any of this bullshit? I wasn't around 150, 70, 60, 40, or even 35 years ago. You claimed to be impartial on page 1 of this thread, but you've been anything but.
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    I think the issue is that you still appear to think that the acts of terrorism were entirely justified.

    They weren't.  Terrorism cannot be justified. 
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Drew_TNBD said:
    lonestar said:
     how vile the Brits have been over the last 150 years towards the Irish.
    Why should someone born in 1984 have to even think about any of this bullshit? I wasn't around 150, 70, 60, 40, or even 35 years ago. You claimed to be impartial on page 1 of this thread, but you've been anything but.
    I am impartial. I'm Scottish and I live in Northern Ireland, have done for 17 years. I'm telling you about the reality that the media doesn't. You think the BBC is going to tell you about both sides of the story?

    Im also not religious... get that! So, I'm Scottish/British living in Northern Ireland and I'm not religious. Wow, yes I'm very much one sided (rolls eyes). 

    The thing is, there are two sides to this. And if you didn't care you wouldn't be commenting. I'm 33, and I have an interest in how the land we live in and on came to be. If that's making me sound one sided because you think I'm giving the Brits a hard time you really need to look at my comments again. 
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 2999
    edited March 2017
    Richardj said:
    I think the issue is that you still appear to think that the acts of terrorism were entirely justified.

    They weren't.  Terrorism cannot be justified. 

    Indeed, no terrorism can be justified, by either the Irish or the English, war by its very nature is terrorism. However we can explain why such acts happened, this isn't justifying anything , simply stating the facts around such acts and why they took place.

    You appear to think that if England goes to war for some reason its absurd to think the country you go to war with wont fight back.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    Richardj said:
    I think the issue is that you still appear to think that the acts of terrorism were entirely justified.

    They weren't.  Terrorism cannot be justified. 
    I've answered this point, twice. You sound like a broken record. Please read the thread again ( I know you won't because you'll see me renounce violence). 
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4843
    Drew_TNBD said:
    lonestar said:
    Scroll up and see what the police, UVF and army did to Catholics.
    How does one shitty set of actions justify another shitty set of actions? I'd really fucking love to know that.
    @Drew_TNBD, you said that you have never been to Ireland. Go to Belfast for a couple of days and spend a day or two in Derry. Do the tourist things, the bus tour, walk on the walls of Derry etc. You might get some understanding of the situation there. And material for an album perhaps?
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8207
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    I'm going to leave this thread now. I have justified myself a number of times now and the conversation seems to have turned against me.

    At lease I can leave with the knowledge that I have a deeper understanding of the history of the country. It's hard to talk to people who just reply with "yeah but they're all terrorists"....

    Yawn...
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  • RichardjRichardj Frets: 1538
    @lonestar, I'm genuinely not trying to start an argument with you.  We all have our own perspectives on these things and mine comes from the other nation involved here.  Somewhere in the middle hopefully there is a little agreement.

    @robgilmo, I think referring to it as a war is still utterly wrong on every count though.


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