Martin McGuinness RIP

Rocker · March 2017

A very sad loss to politics and life in Northern Ireland. McGuinness will be remembered for leading the IRA to abandon conflict and into Government. We can only hope that there is someone with sufficient strength of character to continue his great work...

EricTheWeary · March 2017

I saw the news this morning and looked on here, been surprised how long it's taken for someone to post it.
I'm without strong opinion, TBH, but MrsTheWeary is pretty much getting ready to dance on his grave.

Richardj · March 2017

I guess he will be mourned, along with all of the men, women and children the IRA murdered in cold blood.

Time will tell if his later life will ever make up for that.

joneve · March 2017

Richardj said:

I guess he will be mourned, along with all of the men, women and children the IRA murdered in cold blood.

Time will tell if his later life will ever make up for that.

My guess is, it won't.

RocknRollDave · March 2017

Did he really "lead the IRA to abandon conflict" or did he merely find that the support - financially and otherwise - for armed conflict in NI had dropped off massively, due at least in part to the terrorist attack on American on September 11th? Was the ceasefire due to a genuine desire to move on peacefully or a regretful acceptance that the world had moved on?

Nitefly · March 2017

I find myself strangely unmoved. His contribution to the peace process might have been more convincing had it started about 20 or 30 years sooner.

robgilmo · March 2017

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

RocknRollDave · March 2017

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

HAL9000 · March 2017

Apparently the BBC only learned about his death following an anonymous phone call.

I'm hoping that in the news clips that will inevitably be shown that his words will be spoken by an actor.

robgilmo · March 2017

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Some one negotiating and fighting for peace?

CabbageCat · March 2017

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Health and Safety rep?

fretmeister · March 2017

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

I was only giving orders. guv

RocknRollDave · March 2017

robgilmo said:

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Some one negotiating and fighting for peace?

So, you think it is likely that McGuinness joined a paramilitary group/ army* (*depending on which side of the fence you sit) to become their peaceful ambassador? Really?!

Snap · March 2017

He was a man who had two very distinct phases in his life: a politician and a senior IRA member. How many people he killed, or was party to killing is not established. He never denied or confirmed this, but there is a lot of suggestion he was very actively involved in the IRA murders. Suggestion I say, and allegation, for the record. I don't know, and we should be careful when making such accusations, bearing in mind this is a public board. Just in case....

However, the fact that his fiercest opponent Ian Paisley eventually became big friends with him, when they were both involved in resloving N Ireland's troubles says a lot about change and forgiveness.

I have mixed views on the IRA. They were/are a terrorist organisation that carried out some terrible murders and brutal crimes, but they arose from a position of persecution. Nothing IMO justifies terrorisim, but I can understand how the IRA came to be, and why. I am no IRA apologist, far from it, but we British, by our actions over there, played a very big role in the creation of paramilitary organisations.

Can;t say I am even vaguely stirred by his death, but undoubtedly he was a major figure in the establishment of peace in NI.

RocknRollDave · March 2017

Snap said:

we should be careful when making such accusations, bearing in mind this is a public board. Just in case....

He is dead. You cannot defame or slander the dead, legally speaking.

That said, I agree that we should not attribute to him actions that we do not know for sure that he carried out. However, I think it is a matter of record that he was a member of some incarnations of the IRA at some stage in his life.

Gagaryn · March 2017

It's a matter of record that he was second in command of the PIRA Derry Brigade for at least the first half of the 70's - so including during Bloody Sunday.

He changed in later life and worked hard to secure some sort of peace in Northern Ireland - doesn't mean his earlier life should be forgotten but important that it is considered in the context of the times and the situation in Ireland that had existed for decades before he joined up.

ICBM · March 2017

He was a terrorist *and* a peacemaker. Both should be remembered, but the second is more important because that's where he ended rather than where he began.

Any man who can sit down and negotiate peace with his bitterest enemy - as Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness did - is worthy of respect. That McGuinness could go to meet the Queen and bow and shake her hand is also remarkable given the history involved - likewise the Queen laying a wreath at the memorial to the 1916 rebels in Dublin, on a visit which I think was at least partly brokered by McGuinness.

We should remember the history in order to not repeat it, but we shouldn't remember it so well we're trapped by it either.

AliGorie · March 2017

https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits

starwarsnosebleed · March 2017

He pioneered the world of dry stout. Cheers!

GoldenEraGuitars · March 2017

As a Scot who has spent 17 years in Northern Ireland I can hopefully add an impartial view.

Ive studied a fair bit of irish history, it's fascinating. But nothing can take away from the fact that it was 1169 or so that the Norman conquests first invaded Ireland. Of course, times were bloody different but it highlights that Ireland has never been left alone or dealt an easy hand. The modern violence we all know about is due to the Protestant loyalists in Northern Ireland oppressing the catholic population. They were last in line for everything and that's just how it was.

The "Brits" were brought over for what was meant to be a limited time in order to restore peace. From what I have read and seen the Catholics welcomed the army with open arms. This didn't last, there was a turning point in the whole timescale that I'll be honest... I'm loathed to remember (must re read my history!). This led to the "troubles" and the IRA that the BBC love to parade about as a terrorist force was reborn. I say "reborn" because the IRA was not a new term (you can read up about that yourself but they did try to remove the Brits before under that name).

Now, BOTH sides have committed attrocities that don't bear talking about in detail. But I live in an area of high activity. You have to watch your mouth around here. Everyone I know has a story. And that's the way it was and still is to a certain extent. There is a bigger picture out there that people don't want to know about because it contradicts what the news bulletins told you when you were younger. If I get time I'll detail more of it for you guys but imo a lot of the violence could have been avoided.

My thoughts on McGuiness? Not sure. He was vital to the peace process. He was also instrumental in a lot of deaths. I know that the IRA bombed English locations but if you want to know the full story you should read up about it. There are names and pasts that you never knew existed and no matter which side they were on their stories are fascinating.

I never suffered at the hands of this man so can I judge him? I don't know. But is Northern Ireland a beautiful and safe place to live? Yes, yes it is. And I'm thankful that my wife and 3 children can enjoy a safe life here because of the efforts made to restore peace.

robgilmo · March 2017

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

GoldenEraGuitars · March 2017

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

robgilmo · March 2017

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?

TimmyO · March 2017

At different points his defence to whatever the dire deed being investigated at the time varied from "I am not in the IRA", "I have never been in the IRA", "That was a different branch of the IRA", "I didn't know that thing in particular was about to happen"

Let's not forget too that the 'political violence' was also set against the same organisations practising 'general organised crime violence'.

And the suggestion that it was all 6 and 2 threes is naive.

That said, is is true that his personal involvement carried a significant part of the peace process - by that point it being HIM was important (because he was a bit of a hero to other bloodthirsty murderers, so could persuade them), whereas back in the day, any old tom dick or harry could have filled his roles.

So it's complicated.

I think if the Queen can bury her own emotions and shake his hand, then those of us less directly affected should probably be able to do something similar.

Reverend · March 2017

One of my Mum's best friends was held hostage by him back in the 70s. She was a nurse at a hospitaland they refused to hand over a patient.

GoldenEraGuitars · March 2017

robgilmo said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?

Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us

robgilmo · March 2017

Bangor first then sadly Newry, people say Newry has changed, it being a city and all that but I just cant help seeing it the same way I did when I grew up there. I never got the whole marching thing either, just a way to wind people up I reckon. It is a cultural thing I guess and the reasons why these things happen may not come into play much now, I dunno. I cant say I miss it, I do miss my family, Tayto crisps, Club Orange, The Mourns, batch loaves and decent sized sodas, They changed the size of soda bread over here to something so small there simply isn't any point.

Evilmags · March 2017

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?

Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us

There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden.

GoldenEraGuitars · March 2017

Evilmags said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?

Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us

There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden.

Yeah but thankfully I'm from Edinburgh so I didn't see any of that.

Evilmags · March 2017

lonestar said:

Evilmags said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

lonestar said:

robgilmo said:

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.

Correct. The hardcore republican movement still exists here and you can guarentee that he was a marked man.

Incidentally... I served Brian Shivers in our shop last year (massarene barracks murders). Whether or not he was connected to the getaway car is another story but I felt odd dealing with him. While it is safe here there are constant reminders of the past.

When I was home last it was odd to see people still painted kerb stones and flew flags, I moved away just before the ceasefire and somehow thought that as peace came the norm flag flying and kerb stone painting would somehow become a thing of the past. Do people still march for no apparent reason other than to wind up the opposition?

Where did you live mate? Yes, we're about to hit the marching again. Seeing as I'm Scottish I really don't "get it". But it's in the culture so I doubt it'll fade away anytime soon.

I hate the kerbs and flags. It's only part of a certain social mindset though. Thankfully we have no painted kerbstones near us

There are marches in Scotland´s western parts and quite a few English towns too, but they don´t get much coverage. Glasgow, Lanrk, Ayr and Renfreshire all have major Orange Order lodges. I also know of at least two provo bars in Glasgow and one in London. The bigotry is not gone, just got older and a bit more hidden.

Yeah but thankfully I'm from Edinburgh so I didn't see any of that.

Me too. even the Masons have died down a lot in Edinburgh. They used to have some power. Souther Ireland becoming rich and secular is probably the biggest reason it has died a death. In the 50s and early 60s Scotland was a much more Calvinist country and people were terrified of suffering the poverty Ireland did when it was run by religious types. That fear is gone now and with it a lot of the bigotry it inspired.

marantz1300 · March 2017

my mum got beaten up ,with lumps of wood for being an Irish whore.
because of the hyde park bomb.
we were living in London.
the hatred was everywhere.

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