The difference between a Key and a Mode

frankus · June 2015

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

yep thinking gets in the way of muscle memory, several studies show that
I don't mind learning stuff for an exam, the qualification will hopefully have some use.

I like learning stuff, it's just the way I am, but we're all different.

I didn't know that muscles had memory, I thought that the brain had the memory cells.

I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination. I like little bits of trivia, they help glue important bits of information together.

Despite the name, muscle memory refers to fine motor skills just as much as gross motor skills. Certainly most of my guitar tutors have referred to it.

Research shows that muscle memory does a wonderful job of stuff provided the frontal lobe doesn't interrupt - and here I think there's a word of caution to intellectuals - if you work the frontal lobes as much as you work the cerebellum on a subject the two compete and the motor cortex gets confused

There is such a thing as over-intellectualisation, but it's apparent in extemporising rather than debating.

GuyBoden · June 2015

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

yep thinking gets in the way of muscle memory, several studies show that
I don't mind learning stuff for an exam, the qualification will hopefully have some use.

I like learning stuff, it's just the way I am, but we're all different.

I didn't know that muscles had memory, I thought that the brain had the memory cells.

I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination. I like little bits of trivia, they help glue important bits of information together.

Despite the name, muscle memory refers to fine motor skills just as much as gross motor skills. Certainly most of my guitar tutors have referred to it.

Research shows that muscle memory does a wonderful job of stuff provided the frontal lobe doesn't interrupt - and here I think there's a word of caution to intellectuals - if you work the frontal lobes as much as you work the cerebellum on a subject the two compete and the motor cortex gets confused

There is such a thing as over-intellectualisation, but it's apparent in extemporising rather than debating.

I just type on the internet for a bit of a break from working, if I had my guitar I wouldn't be typing....

Handsome_Chris · June 2015

I don't know too much of this theory stuff. Does this mean that I can't write music anymore?

thomasross20 · June 2015

viz said:

Omg thanks!

Heat of the moment!!

Hahaha

thomasross20 · June 2015

Jalapeno said:

thomasross20 said:

Yep I know
Standard patterns or not - they still scare me!!

It's pretty simple when you hear them a lot, you need to practice this stuff in context rather than writing about them on Internet forums

Definitely!!!

viz · June 2015

I was literally getting off a plane at the time lol

thomasross20 · June 2015

frankus said:
I like learning stuff too, but not for the sake of learning - seems like procrastination.

Yes - so I'm wary of watching too many jamplay vids and not actually getting round to trying out ideas. It's all about the playing (certainly not about the gear!!)

frankus · June 2015

GuyBoden said:
I just type on the internet for a bit of a break from working, if I had my guitar I wouldn't be typing....

I don't think anyone would disagree with that sentiment

koneguitarist · June 2015

Why don't you all just play notes that sound right? In gigs spanning 37years I have never been asked what mode or scale I am playing, maybe that's more down to my lack of knowledge as I couldn't answer the question anyway! $:\$ ">

viz · June 2015

I think that happens as well - I think it's just that some people are interested in the construct as well as the sound. Some people (I for one) are naturally fascinated by maths, and the theory side of music turns us on I guess. Takes all sorts etc.

thomasross20 · June 2015

I'd only play what sounded right IF I COULD. Problem is I want to know what the "right" notes are and only then throw in the "wrong" ones for some chromaticism. I could never play without knowing the basic shapes but that's just me!

koneguitarist · June 2015

Don't get me wrong not knocking it, just don't understand it.

And I am not going to go into the feel debate over technique, but I am sure the notes are all the same,

it's not our knowledge of the fretboard modes that makes us more musical but our inherent musical ability that makes our choice of note interesting.

Hope that makes sense?

viz · June 2015

koneguitarist said:

Don't get me wrong not knocking it, just don't understand it.
And I am not going to go into the feel debate over technique, but I am sure the notes are all the same,
it's not our knowledge of the fretboard modes that makes us more musical but our inherent musical ability that makes our choice of note interesting.

Hope that makes sense?

It certainly does, and I think most of us who feel comfortable playing whatever's in our head/heart would say it comes relatively naturally, but learning is a huuuuge part of it, and I don't just mean learning to play the instrument. I mean learning music as well. All those amazing composers didn't only rely on something innate alone, they had a gruelling musical upbringing. It's nature and nurture, just as it is with anyone at the peak of their profession, right? Sports people, scientists, artists, you name it. Imo.

thomasross20 · June 2015

Have to say when I watch modal lessons online it's usually accompanied by some bad alternate picking and same-ish lines.

I quite enjoy looking at it from a more arpeggio-based approach (though like I say, I do pick the notes from the mode!)

daveyh · June 2015

I treat modes as the key. Works well and it's never caused me any problems.

MatthewShreddery · June 2015

I don't think the answer in the OP was too bad.

Modes are just scales. They each have their own unique colour and mood.

Really, modes could just be called moods (to quote Frank Gambale from a recent clinic of his).

Key just tells you which note is tonic, and usually implies a tonal centre.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from people trying to learn things from a theoretical perspective, before they have even learnt what the scales sound like.

A bit like trying to learn a language by reading a dictionary.

I'm not entirely sure what the full question actually is.

Are you asking with regards to how you'd notate a key/mode, and any differences thenceforth?

Or are you asking more from an aural perspective; what are the differences in the way they sound?

I really don't think there is a difference between a key and a mode. It's all just sound, and as most of us play music by ear I'd sooner be able to hear the tonal implications of a set of chords or even a static one-chord-vamp rather than be able to tell you how many flats/sharps are in the key signature (though knowing that stuff helps too).

I stand by my simple philosophy - keys are either major or minor. Regardless of modes and all that stuff. For most musical scenarios I've ever encountered this has been the case.

If I was playing a D Lydian vamp I would notate the music in the key of D major.

This key has 2 #'s.

The frequent recurrence of G#'s - the #4 - in the music would be an indication that this is a modal piece of music.

Is there really a need to indicate to the performer that a piece is in such-and-such a 'mode'?

Isn't that a little bit like musical mollycoddling?

It's like people want to feel safe - 'here's a box of notes, they'll all work over these chords...'

We're in C - if you can't hear that the II chord has an F# in it (Lydian jam anyone?) then you've got some more practice to do.

(EDIT - I pulled the key of C from thin air - not related to my previous paragraph talking about D Lydian)

viz · June 2015

You get a vizdom for that post.

carlos · June 2015

From what I read, I rate @MatthewShreddery's reply as the best. @koneguitarist also gets some kudos in a sort of idiot savant (no offence, bear with me) way - ultimately you want to know everything, forget everything, and then play by ear. But that takes a lot of learning, and a lot of forgetting to get there, the proverbial 10k hours of practice.

I view modes as always associated with chords. Pieces are not necessarily written in Dorian or Ionian, the big signposts of our music are major and minor keys, which imply only their basic triads. Everything else is colour, whereas coming from the chords in the piece or from our own sensibility. There's a universe of chord theory and substitutions out there which you can choose to use or not. For instance, let's take a dominant chord in a piece of music. Easiest would be to play a Mixolydian scale over it as it has all the notes (135b7) from a dominant chord. But that might not be the colour you want, so you can pick for example a wholetone scale to play over it which has #5 in it. The #5 is not part of the key but the scale does have the 1 and the flat 7 which are really the "essentials" of a dominant chord, so it works... with a different colour. I think it's fine to learn the shapes and memorise them: I've got CAGED, 3nps, maj/min pentas down. But after that rote learning, it's really important to learn the sounds.

Take it away Miles (from 3:30 onwards)

carlos · June 2015

And even better video. I really recommend watching this and incorporating it:

frankus · June 2015

I think the idea of know everything, forget everything is specious.

By the time a kid gets to school he should know how to talk with people to get what he needs, know how to pick out a safe adult if he loses mum or dad, maybe know his address, maybe be able to get dressed, maybe take himself to the loo.

It's something similar for guitarists (ignoring the whole guitarist/musician shit-storm) if they can get up on stage, play in tune, know the tunes they'll play, keep time and manage their volume levels. Ideally they should be able to recall the amp settings in case another band change them, ideally recall the setlist, ideally not get pissed in the time between sound-check and their spot, ideally get on with the rest of the band.

When people are discussing the bullshit of modes, keys, diatonic notes, inversions - that's the domain of improvisation, song-writing and waffling.

It sounds pretentious at a gig, anally retentive in a studio BUT fucking awesome on internet forums for guitarists (try it with musicians and you'll be out of your depth almost instantly).

stickyfiddle · June 2015

MatthewShreddery said:

I don't think the answer in the OP was too bad.

Modes are just scales. They each have their own unique colour and mood.
Really, modes could just be called moods (to quote Frank Gambale from a recent clinic of his).

Key just tells you which note is tonic, and usually implies a tonal centre.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from people trying to learn things from a theoretical perspective, before they have even learnt what the scales sound like.

A bit like trying to learn a language by reading a dictionary.

I'm not entirely sure what the full question actually is.
Are you asking with regards to how you'd notate a key/mode, and any differences thenceforth?
Or are you asking more from an aural perspective; what are the differences in the way they sound?

I really don't think there is a difference between a key and a mode. It's all just sound, and as most of us play music by ear I'd sooner be able to hear the tonal implications of a set of chords or even a static one-chord-vamp rather than be able to tell you how many flats/sharps are in the key signature (though knowing that stuff helps too).

I stand by my simple philosophy - keys are either major or minor. Regardless of modes and all that stuff. For most musical scenarios I've ever encountered this has been the case.

If I was playing a D Lydian vamp I would notate the music in the key of D major.
This key has 2 #'s.
The frequent recurrence of G#'s - the #4 - in the music would be an indication that this is a modal piece of music.

Is there really a need to indicate to the performer that a piece is in such-and-such a 'mode'?
Isn't that a little bit like musical mollycoddling?
It's like people want to feel safe - 'here's a box of notes, they'll all work over these chords...'

We're in C - if you can't hear that the II chord has an F# in it (Lydian jam anyone?) then you've got some more practice to do.
(EDIT - I pulled the key of C from thin air - not related to my previous paragraph talking about D Lydian)

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm fairly certain the red bit sums up eveyrthing I've ever felt about discussing modes. Exactly this. I'm one of the lucky ones who "did" music from 7 or 8, and can play pretty much anything I want to by ear (my fingers fail at widdly stuff far earlier than my ears do). A lot of guitarists aren't like this though- they play finger patterns that they know work in certain circumstances, but to know what will work, they need to know the circumstances in order to work out what patterns will work, not just use their ears.

In other words, I agree with Kone, I think.

Clarky · June 2015

stickyfiddle said:

MatthewShreddery said:

I don't think the answer in the OP was too bad.

Modes are just scales. They each have their own unique colour and mood.
Really, modes could just be called moods (to quote Frank Gambale from a recent clinic of his).

Key just tells you which note is tonic, and usually implies a tonal centre.

I think a lot of the confusion comes from people trying to learn things from a theoretical perspective, before they have even learnt what the scales sound like.

A bit like trying to learn a language by reading a dictionary.

I'm not entirely sure what the full question actually is.
Are you asking with regards to how you'd notate a key/mode, and any differences thenceforth?
Or are you asking more from an aural perspective; what are the differences in the way they sound?

I really don't think there is a difference between a key and a mode. It's all just sound, and as most of us play music by ear I'd sooner be able to hear the tonal implications of a set of chords or even a static one-chord-vamp rather than be able to tell you how many flats/sharps are in the key signature (though knowing that stuff helps too).

I stand by my simple philosophy - keys are either major or minor. Regardless of modes and all that stuff. For most musical scenarios I've ever encountered this has been the case.

If I was playing a D Lydian vamp I would notate the music in the key of D major.
This key has 2 #'s.
The frequent recurrence of G#'s - the #4 - in the music would be an indication that this is a modal piece of music.

Is there really a need to indicate to the performer that a piece is in such-and-such a 'mode'?
Isn't that a little bit like musical mollycoddling?
It's like people want to feel safe - 'here's a box of notes, they'll all work over these chords...'

We're in C - if you can't hear that the II chord has an F# in it (Lydian jam anyone?) then you've got some more practice to do.
(EDIT - I pulled the key of C from thin air - not related to my previous paragraph talking about D Lydian)

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm fairly certain the red bit sums up eveyrthing I've ever felt about discussing modes. Exactly this. I'm one of the lucky ones who "did" music from 7 or 8, and can play pretty much anything I want to by ear (my fingers fail at widdly stuff far earlier than my ears do). A lot of guitarists aren't like this though- they play finger patterns that they know work in certain circumstances, but to know what will work, they need to know the circumstances in order to work out what patterns will work, not just use their ears.

In other words, I agree with Kone, I think.

I think the prob with all this theory stuff is that the reason for it's existence is often overlooked..

music theory is simply a means to give folk the language to describe what they hear / to communicate with other musicians..

occasionally it can be a compositional aid, as in "what possibilities are open to me over this chord / progression"..

too often though, I see many guitarists getting confined within a set of rules... like sticking your creativity in a cage.. using theory as a means to write seems to me like the tail wagging the dog... your intuition and experience should choose the notes.. the theory simply enables you to talk about them after should you need to...

carlos · June 2015

frankus said:

It sounds pretentious at a gig, anally retentive in a studio BUT fucking awesome on internet forums for guitarists (try it with musicians and you'll be out of your depth almost instantly).

Yeah, you wouldn't discuss it at a gig, but the rest is just your experience. I've certainly been in the studio and discussing theory, except in that moment it's not theory but rather actual useful way to communicate musical choices. Say your bandleader asks you to solo over a minor section with a more mellow feel? It's nice to know that you can raise your 6's (go from Aeolian to Dorian) for an instant more mellow sound. Some people might even ask what you just played so they can follow that and then it's useful to have common terms to explain.

And I know plenty of musicians from other instruments who know fuck all of theory. They can instantly sight read, both pitches and rhythm, but they'd have no idea what notes go with what chords as they never studied that. Just don't mess with keys players, their harmonic knowledge will mess you up.

frankus · June 2015

georgenadaintl said:

frankus said:

It sounds pretentious at a gig, anally retentive in a studio BUT fucking awesome on internet forums for guitarists (try it with musicians and you'll be out of your depth almost instantly).

Yeah, you wouldn't discuss it at a gig, but the rest is just your experience. I've certainly been in the studio and discussing theory, except in that moment it's not theory but rather actual useful way to communicate musical choices. Say your bandleader asks you to solo over a minor section with a more mellow feel? It's nice to know that you can raise your 6's (go from Aeolian to Dorian) for an instant more mellow sound. Some people might even ask what you just played so they can follow that and then it's useful to have common terms to explain.

I remember having lunch with Justin Sandercoe, Jason Sidwell and Eric Roche (so that dates it somewhat) and the discussion got around to session work. The winner for all round vagueness from a producer seem to be "I'd like the solo to be like a kind of three am sleeze" ... and after the take "that was 2 am" ...

And I know plenty of musicians from other instruments who know fuck all of theory. They can instantly sight read, both pitches and rhythm, but they'd have no idea what notes go with what chords as they never studied that. Just don't mess with keys players, their harmonic knowledge will mess you up.

One of my friends is a keys player and a sound engineer by trade, when I say stuff about modes I get an "aw bless" look from him .. a bit like you'd get if you heard the keepers had given chimpanzees hand guns at a safari park.

I think guitarists could be like other musicians or we could carry on bothering ourselves with important sounding stuff that frankly we probably don't use.

MatthewShreddery · June 2015

I don't know many good improvisers who haven't spent a lot of time learning scales, so I don't know why someone would give you funny looks for mentioning modes - after all they are just scales too.

It's not cool to not know theory. It's not uncool to not know it either. It all depends on what your goals are, what your musical intentions are etc.

It's totally cool to only use 5 notes in your solos, but some people want to explore other sounds.

The only way to get these sounds into your ears and into your fingers is to practice them by way of scale/chord study and by transcribing music.

We guitarists do tend to mystify modes, like they're some sort of black magic voodoo shit. The classical background to modes is some heavy reading and quite hard to digest. However, most of us use modal theory in 2 basic ways: to play in 'a mode' (Miles Davis, Joe satriani), and to play over chord changes (play Dorian over chord ii, altered scale which is melodic minor up a half step, over chord V) etc.

Simple really.

koneguitarist · June 2015

The point I was making, that when I was growing up and playing in bands, we all just wanted to be able to play in Key and in time. If it sounds right it's right, if it sounds wrong it's wrong.

Never heard of modes and stuff till the 90's after all these guitarists started popping out of Berkley, all sounding the same, and all featured in Mike Varneys column in Guitar player.

I get it why some want to learn more, and why some could not care less about soloing in some Phrygid mode!

It's music not an exam, do you think Peter Green thought if I use a mixythingy here it will make it sound better, or do you think he heard the notes in his head and expressed them?

koneguitarist · June 2015

More to the point, do you think if he knew more scales he would have put a better choice of notes in, yet may have lost the whole point of solo!

MatthewShreddery · June 2015

I agree with you @koneguitarist - not sure if you were directing your post at me or not..?

I might add however, that regardless of how naturally talented a musician may be, there will be sounds he cannot imagine until he has heard them.

You only really hear things in your head when you listen to music that has those sounds. If you only listen to blues (blues-blues, not jazz) then you may only hear certain sounds limited to those commonly played in that genre, as opposed to guys who listen to lots of bebop.

Clarky · June 2015

MatthewShreddery said:

I might add however, that regardless of how naturally talented a musician may be, there will be sounds he cannot imagine until he has heard them.

You only really hear things in your head when you listen to music that has those sounds. If you only listen to blues (blues-blues, not jazz) then you may only hear certain sounds limited to those commonly played in that genre, as opposed to guys who listen to lots of bebop.

this goes back to your point about transcribing / learning the solos of others…

learn by example

MatthewShreddery · June 2015

Yes, which in turn goes back to my earlier points about learning theory before sounds. I think you're better off learning what things sound like before analysing what they are on paper. Certainly at the beginner stages at least.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

The difference between a Key and a Mode

Comments