The difference between a Key and a Mode

GuyBoden · June 2015

I thought that this was a clear answer to the recurring question:

Question: "What's the difference between a Key and a Mode"
Answer: "The Key will tell you what note is the tonic and the Mode will tell you the scale."

From this site Jake Hertzog. Guitar Player Magazine:
http://JakeHertzog.com

"What’s the difference between a diatonic key and a mode like super locrian or lydian?—Moded out in Manhattan

Dear Moded:Great Question! This is where some of the terminology of music theory becomes confusing. So you’re not alone in trying to figure this out, to make it worse, many of these words are not always used correctly in common conversation, so it’s no wonder people are confused. Think of it this way: A KEY refers to a particular “home base” or tonic note. For example the “Key of C”. But that doesn’t tell you anything about the rest of the notes that will be used. A MODE refers to a particular set of half steps and whole steps, but does not specify any one tone. So the KEY will tell you what note is the tonic and the MODE will tell you the rest of the scale construction. Lets break it down with an example: Our good old fashion C Major, is called “key of C” but that is a mis-nomer. The truly accurate description of this harmonic system would be the “KEY of C Ionian”. Now I’ve given you a tonal center (c) and a mode type (ionian) that tells you that you will start on C and then go : w w 1/2 w w w 1/2. and then you will be back at C. So Remember, you need BOTH things to tell you what notes to play, KEY and MODE. They are linked. This should also lead you to the idea that practicing in a KEY means you play every MODE and practicing in a MODE means you play every KEY. Hmmm…got a lot of work ahead of you. Good luck!!!"

IanSavage · June 2015

Enough of that, is Sweet Home Alabama in D or not?!?

GuyBoden · June 2015

IanSavage said:

Enough of that, is Sweet Home Alabama in D or not?!?

The question might be, "What Mode is Sweet Home Alabama in?"

mike_l · June 2015

GuyBoden said:

IanSavage said:

Enough of that, is Sweet Home Alabama in D or not?!?

The question might be, "What Mode is Sweet Home Alabama in?"

G. Ionian.

D. Mixolydian.

C. Don'tgiveafuckian.

There, sorted.

Clarky · June 2015

I disagree with that answer...

the "key of C" refers to the key of C major.. it's perfectly clear...

if the key is something else, like a minor one with C as the tonic, then the key will be Cm...

the guy writing that is making clearly stuff up cos he is not 100% certain of the answer either.. look at a classical score for any instrument / ensemble / orchestra "in C", and the title will NEVER say "in C Ionian". It'll be "blah blah in C". And as you'd expect, the key signature will have no sharps or flats... and the piece will be in C major...

that answer is jazzer slang at best

yes there is a difference between key and mode... but it has nothing to do with that answer... unless of course you're a jazzer cos then it'll make perfect sense... and everyone else that's not a jazzer don't count... cos they're stupid.. lmao

ArchtopDave · June 2015

Clarky said:

I disagree with that answer...
the "key of C" refers to the key of C major.. it's perfectly clear...
if the key is something else, like a minor one with C as the tonic, then the key will be Cm...
the guy writing that is making clearly stuff up cos he is not 100% certain of the answer either.. look at a classical score for any instrument / ensemble / orchestra "in C", and the title will NEVER say "in C Ionian". It'll be "blah blah in C". And as you'd expect, the key signature will have no sharps or flats... and the piece will be in C major...
that answer is jazzer slang at best
yes there is a difference between key and mode... but it has nothing to do with that answer... unless of course you're a jazzer cos then it'll make perfect sense... and everyone else that's not a jazzer don't count... cos they're stupid.. lmao

I more or less agree with Clarky. The key is not only defined by the Key Signature, but also then tells you what the sequence of notes are i.e if it's C Major then the notes in the scale are CDEFGABC. The Key in this case could also be the Relative / Natural Minor (A Minor). The Modes relate to the degree of the parent scale on which you choose to start the Mode, i.e if you start C Major on the second note of the scale (D) then you get D Dorian.

It eternally fascinates me how you can play the same set of notes in different ways and get them to sound differently. If you're improvising in C Major, and then change to A Minor (Aeolian) or D Dorian, then the colouration of your sound changes, despite the fact that you're playing from the same set of notes.

frankus · June 2015

I agree with Clarky (jazzers are some of the most creatively stupid people on the planet) - and I will now say stuff he might well disagree with, but I agree with what he's written.

A Key is something you write at the start of a piece of music - it's generally a note on the accidentals you'd expect to encounter in the music.

At the start of a piece of music there's also a time-signature - it's generally the best pattern to frame a passage of music to be read, like a key.

So if you don't read music time signature and key are words about the music rather than artefacts of a piece of notation.

An analogue of that is "the central line is red", "the picadilly line is blue" their portrayed on a popular map in those colours is all.

It's possible to express one time signature sound using another (not for all examples, but some - as found in Rhythmic Illusions)... equally you could write something in the key of C and pepper the notation liberally with # and b so that someone listening transcribes it in their head as another key. There's more than one way of doing it...

GuyBoden · June 2015

I agree with what Jake Hertzog from Guitar Player Magazine has stated on his site. He's using more recent music theory, the Key signature might have the F# sign on the staff, the Key tonic note is "A" and the Mode "A Dorian".

Using recent music theory; the Mile's Davis Modal Tune "So What" is in the key of D, using Mode Dorian.

Clarky · June 2015

guitar mag theory or not, answer that question in a real music exam like that, in a real university, and you'll get zero points...

because this

Question: "What's the difference between a Key and a Mode"
Answer: "The Key will tell you what note is the tonic and the Mode will tell you the scale."

is completely untrue.. opinion has nothing to do with this stuff.. what a key is and what it does is just a simple fact.. the whole thing about adding the mode type looks to me like some stuff that someone made up cos they couldn't answer the question in a better way. sorry mate.. it's just wrong

GuyBoden · June 2015

Clarky said:

guitar mag theory or not, answer that question in a real music exam like that, in a real university, and you'll get zero points...
because this
Question: "What's the difference between a Key and a Mode"
Answer: "The Key will tell you what note is the tonic and the Mode will tell you the scale."
is completely untrue.. opinion has nothing to do with this stuff.. what a key is and what it does is just a simple fact.. the whole thing about adding the mode type looks to me like some stuff that someone made up cos they couldn't answer the question in a better way. sorry mate.. it's just wrong

It's not my theory, it's how Modern Music Theory is taught.

Jake Hertzog from Guitar Player Magazine knows his stuff.

Clarky · June 2015

frankus said:

I agree with Clarky (jazzers are some of the most creatively stupid people on the planet) - and I will now say stuff he might well disagree with, but I agree with what he's written.
A Key is something you write at the start of a piece of music - it's generally a note on the accidentals you'd expect to encounter in the music.
At the start of a piece of music there's also a time-signature - it's generally the best pattern to frame a passage of music to be read, like a key.
So if you don't read music time signature and key are words about the music rather than artefacts of a piece of notation.
An analogue of that is "the central line is red", "the picadilly line is blue" their portrayed on a popular map in those colours is all.
It's possible to express one time signature sound using another (not for all examples, but some - as found in Rhythmic Illusions)... equally you could write something in the key of C and pepper the notation liberally with # and b so that someone listening transcribes it in their head as another key. There's more than one way of doing it...

I agree with all of that but not the way you use the word accidental... an accidental is a note outside of the key.. so... if we were in the key of G for example, the key sig would show the note F as a sharp.. that's not an accidental because it's in the key of G.. however, if at some point in the music we wanted the note C to be C sharp for a little while, the sharp sign would be next to the note [and not next to the clef].. the C sharp is the accidental until it becomes C natural again, which puts it back in line with the key sig..

your point about "peppering sharps around" actually happens.. if you look at the score of a minuet for example, there will no doubt be a key change roughly have way though... you'll see a couple of give away 'things' for the key change.. lots of accidentals will show up.. and there will [certainly in classical music] be a perfect cadence to establish the new key..

all my crap ramblings above put to one side... I totally understand point you're making and fully agree with it..

Clarky · June 2015

hmmmm.... looking at my comments above and I think I'm in danger of looking like a complete asshole.. and that is totally not my intention..

anyways... I'm just trying to get the point across that some of the music theory in mags etc [and even some contemporary music academies] is not good.. and being modern don't make it more right either... just like trem arms that do vibrato, or calling a chord a sus4 chord just because it contains the same notes as a real sus4, but it's not involved in a suspension event... etc.. simply put, they are very poorly chosen labels for things because they were misunderstood, but now they are generally accepted terms..

viz · June 2015

Wiz

frankus · June 2015

Yes - I did misuse accidentals! it's the polar opposite of what I've written.

I am wondering if this is one of those "when in Rome things", in Karate there are about four stances we use, in boxing there's one and in Muay Thai another... all meant to do the same things, all supposedly the way to do it. but there's value in each and cross-over to be exploited - knowing all of them gives an interesting perspective.

In so many disagreements it's easy to be experts on our own side, the people who're massively useful are those that can step outside their own, and at some point that means having adopted neutrality enough to absorb another person's point of view.

What I've found is the only way to achieve convincing someone else you get their point of view is to paraphrase it and repeat it back (at this point the other person corrects - either the other person or themselves) and the other person has another go.. in counselling it's called active listening and it's a proper skill in dealing with difficult people and tricky situations.

From my understanding of Clarky, I believe he's grokked the idea of keys and such inside his own area of expertise and used that as a platform to understand it for other genres or modern approaches. It might be useful for someone to identify the disparities in a summary to nail it for all time.

I can think of three people on this thread who are either inclined to or qualified for some parts of the job, and I think understanding this might be enriching - not just for us plebs, but just to crystalise the differentiations for people preferring or knowing one part.

Clarky · June 2015

you're right about the "when in Rome" thing.... there are certainly theoretical points that make most sense within a specific context..

for example, in old money [17th Century], for a key change to be fully established, a perfect cadence is absolutely mandatory.. Just like a cap is at the start of a sentence or a full stop is at the end. it was a point of grammar. and of course in modern music [irrespective of genre] rules such as that don't need to be adhered to.. and are generally not adhered to in practice either..

so yes context is a big deal...

when I teach theory, I teach classical first because that is where the fundamental principles were established and really nailed down.. then I overlay the contemporary.. so I teach both "the rules" and some of the ways that they got broke [good and bad]..

there are two ways of looking at modes... one of them is obvious.. how do I find / use them cos they're so powerful and cool...

the other is more historical... where did they come from so why do they even exist... and how were they used.. it's this question that begins to give a little insight as to them being what you could sort of consider as "sub-keys" within the parent major key [in exactly the same fashion as a minor key being "relative"]..

GuyBoden · June 2015

Just thought I'd add that Jake Hertzog studied music at Berklee College and his Masters at the Manhattan School of Music.

Yeah, I'd say, he knows his stuff.

frankus · June 2015

It's not really contributing to the discussion just reinforcing your position, planning on becoming entrenched?

Rocker · June 2015

I only ever consider what Key a song is sung in. Then I know the chords that are most likely to be suitable or 'fit'. TBH I couldn't explain modes if you paid me...

Clarky · June 2015

GuyBoden said:

Just thought I'd add that Jake Hertzog studied music at Berklee College and his Masters at the Manhattan School of Music.

Yeah, I'd say, he knows his stuff.

if that's true, then I'm gobsmacked that he answered that question so poorly

in his defence though, that is a very difficult question to answer briefly with clarity because the background knowledge needed is quite large. as always with music.. so many things are so easy to demonstrate but so difficult to explain with the written word..

@frankus I can do the entrenched bit if ya want.. lol… cos I still think the answer is in the 'not that great' to 'totally wrong' area

mike_l · June 2015

I'd go with playing each mode in a single key to hear the differences.

So in (for example) G

G major

G Dorian

Etc

That'll explain things way better.

GuyBoden · June 2015

Clarky said:

GuyBoden said:

Just thought I'd add that Jake Hertzog studied music at Berklee College and his Masters at the Manhattan School of Music.

Yeah, I'd say, he knows his stuff.

if that's true, then I'm gobsmacked that he answered that question so poorly

in his defence though, that is a very difficult question to answer briefly with clarity because the background knowledge needed is quite large. as always with music.. so many things are so easy to demonstrate but so difficult to explain with the written word..

Yeah, Jake Hertzog is a talented player/educator and has even opened for John Scofield.

Check him out on wiki or just Google him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hertzog11/Jake_Hertzog

viz · June 2015

In many cases, the key signature can define the key (obviously) AND the root, even if the mode is not Ionian. In other words, you might write a piece in C, with all the B's as B Flats. ie the piece is based on C mixolydian scale, and every time a B pops up, you give it an accidental. That's perfectly OK, you wouldn't have to write the key sig as though it were in F with one flat. Look at Danny Elfman's sheet music for The Simpsons, which is based on the Lydian scale (actually the overtone scale because it has a flat 7 near the end, but that's beside the by). It has a key signature of no sharps or flats, and it starts off in C. Every time there's an F, it has to have a sharp. Then it modulates through a few keys till it ends up in Db with accidentals all over the place. The key signature defined the start key, despite the piece not being based on that key's ionian scale.

On the other hand, you might decide to use the key sig to minimise the number of accidentals. You might use a key signature as though the piece is based on that key's ionian scale, but actually write the piece based on the mixolydian scale, a 5th up. For example, Debussy's cathedral engloutie, which has no sharps or flats, looks like it's written in C major, but is actually in G with all the F's as F naturals without accidentals, not F sharps. ie it's based on the G mixolydian scale. Check it out.

Obviously the latter is akin to writing a piece in A minor with the key signature of no sharps or flats, which is obviously quite normal. You wouldn't write it in A major with 3 sharps, and then put natural signs in front of every C#, F# and G#!

thomasross20 · June 2015

So. No one way to do it.
I view the whole fretboard as a modal map. I fuse that with the CAGED system so I can play anywhere I want. From the modes I pick out the notes for pentatonics, chords and arpeggios. The modes have ALL the notes so I start from that full painting and then choose the bits that interest me.

I'm proper memorising the fretboard and all note names now having done many jamplay lessons so far. But I have to say... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based at that point.

I find there's so much to memorise I've barely moved away from the major scale modes. But I'm hoping that as long as I can use them to full effect...

viz · June 2015

mike_l said:

I'd go with playing each mode in a single key to hear the differences.
So in (for example) G
G major
G Dorian
Etc
That'll explain things way better.

Correct, because the fact the G Dorian is a SCALE, is at least as important as the fact that it's also a Mode of F Ionian.

Then when you know how it sounds, you can reinforce that with pieces that use it. Eg Greensleeves, what shall we do with the drunken sailor, etc.

mike_l · June 2015

viz said:

mike_l said:

I'd go with playing each mode in a single key to hear the differences.
So in (for example) G
G major
G Dorian
Etc
That'll explain things way better.

Correct, because the fact the G Dorian is a SCALE, is at least as important as the fact that it's also a Mode of F Ionian.

Then when you know how it sounds, you can reinforce that with pieces that use it. Eg Greensleeves, what shall we do with the drunken sailor, etc.

I was more thinking that G is the key, Ionian/Dorian etc is the scale.

viz · June 2015

Exactly. If it's based on G dorian, it could have nothing whatsoever to do with the key of F. Your comment of the key is G, the scale is dorian, is absolutely correct. It can just be thought of as a scale in its own right with its own root, as can all the diatonic scales.

Just to build on what you say, it is obviously important to group the 3 major modes and the 3 minor modes together. So as Dorian is a minor scale, if one wanted to notate it (and not use the approach of having the key sig of F major - 1 flat - ie the same as G dorian), one would say the key is G Minor (2 flats), but every Eb is made into an E natural, rather than G major (1 sharp) with the B flattened and the F naturalled. I know you weren't talking about notation but thought it useful as an add-on point.

thomasross20 · June 2015

Guys, if you're playing c mixolydian in the 3rd fret area what shape do you play? Same as me? From the point of view of the E string I'd play the E shape G Dorian scale but with root C on the A string. IMO that's the best way as you've immediately unlocked all notes in that area of the fretboard

thomasross20 · June 2015

In the HEAT of the moment, with chords changing (admittedly I usually play songs where a chord set imply one mode so I don't have to think too much!)... I just want to know how you navigate the fretboard. I assume you all pivot back to a root note point (CAGED) but the shapes differ depending which part of the fretboard you're in. I basically remember the E and A CAGED shapes for all modes so I can cover a large area of the fretboard - and I intend to expand this to G, C and D shapes - lots to remember.

frankus · June 2015

thomasross20 said:

So. No one way to do it.
I view the whole fretboard as a modal map. I fuse that with the CAGED system so I can play anywhere I want. From the modes I pick out the notes for pentatonics, chords and arpeggios. The modes have ALL the notes so I start from that full painting and then choose the bits that interest me.

I'm proper memorising the fretboard and all note names now having done many jamplay lessons so far. But I have to say... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based at that point.

I find there's so much to memorise I've barely moved away from the major scale modes. But I'm hoping that as long as I can use them to full effect...

I would love that kind of knowledge!

I'd think that as long as you know the function of the notes in the scale patterns, you'd be able to figure out most of the popular modes:

Lydian is major with a #4

Mixolydian is a major with a b7

Melodic Minor is a major with a b3

Dorian is a Minor with a natural 6

Phrygian is a Minor with a flat 2

if you think of the enharmonic minor and it's major - it's the same notes A Phrygian =~ C Mixolydian.

But I don't think in that way (and wish I could) so I don't know if I'm saying something that's helpful

Roland · June 2015

thomasross20 said:

So. No one way to do it ... I'm much more of a "shapes" player. I often find (not always the case!) that with too much technique/theory the emotion can be lost. You know what I'm saying... I definitely focus on the sound and shapes. Especially at speed - it HAS to be pattern based ...

Thomas speaks sense

GuyBoden · June 2015

viz said:

If it's based on G dorian, it could have nothing whatsoever to do with the key of F. Your comment of the key is G, the scale is dorian, is absolutely correct. It can just be thought of as a scale in its own right with its own root, as can all the diatonic scales.

Well done Viz.

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The difference between a Key and a Mode

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