Instant Jazz

tonyrath · May 2015

I am a humble teacher labouring on the lower slopes of music education not famous or dazzling but a good player and teacher with a 100 percent pass rate in exams and pupils who have been with me for over five years in some cases. Now I get from time to time young men who want to learn instant jazz/blues either on piano or guitar who want to know everything quickly but do not want to practice. I explain that if I could do this I would be a lot richer and could retire and that those people who are telling you this on the interweb are wait for it exaggerating their claims slightly Had one tonight nice lad - nice guitar but did not know modes - arps - fretboard and wants it all quickly and cannot be bothered to practice as its not creative Do my best but will not see him again probably

BTW I do get female pupils - but they practice and learn

imalone · May 2015

If you do ever find the secret let us know!

frankus · May 2015

he already knows he's part of the iiVluminati.

Some day they'll be exposed and everyone will know the secret bebop scale of Blind Wee-Wee Jefferson.

Jalapeno · May 2015

Is his name Bill Oddie ?

GuyBoden · May 2015

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

SquireJapan · May 2015

GuyBoden;641368" said:
There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

That's hilarious ... that's me. I also want to learn the banjo, but don't listen anything played with a banjo. The idea of it is cool, and its on the list, but it's a little way off

I'm what's wrong with the world ...

menamestom · May 2015

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

I think people confuse playing Jazz, with playing something Jazzy.

PolarityMan · May 2015

I play jazz all the time but then I keep practiing and nail it.

bingefeller · May 2015

Jazz is based on fear:

meltedbuzzbox · May 2015

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

define Jazz

frankus · May 2015

I've met a fair amount of shredders who want the occasional fruity chord and to grok syncopation to be like Nuno and Paul Gilbert ... I can't see any value in judging them for it.

GuyBoden · May 2015

meltedbuzzbox said:

GuyBoden said:

There's some players who want to play "JAZZ", but never listen to any Jazz music. I find this very puzzling..............

define Jazz

It's been well documented and defined over the years, it includes dixieland, swing, bebop, fusion and free jazz, but the great thing is that it's constantly evolving................................

Clarky · May 2015

no matter what you want to play well, classical, shred, jazz, country... anything really..

there's no short cut.. and each style is pretty much a lifestyle in its own right..

plus.... there are very few players multi-discipline players that are serious masters of jazz and metal shred and country etc..

the only one I can think of that can is Guthrie... he's one of a kind and should be in the circus cos he ain't normal...

GuyBoden · May 2015

Clarky said:

no matter what you want to play well, classical, shred, jazz, country... anything really..
there's no short cut.. and each style is pretty much a lifestyle in its own right..
plus.... there are very few players multi-discipline players that are serious masters of jazz and metal shred and country etc..
the only one I can think of that can is Guthrie... he's one of a kind and should be in the circus cos he ain't normal...

Very true, but even Guthrie isn't great at Bebop to most Jazz player's ears.....

frankus · May 2015

GuyBoden said:

the only one I can think of that can is Guthrie... he's one of a kind and should be in the circus cos he ain't normal...

Very true, but even Guthrie isn't great at Bebop to most Jazz player's ears.....

Ugh, this old chestnut... IIRC it's some...not most... (but of course I guess it depends on your definition of Jazz as to who fits into that circle of "jealous listeners"*) actually IIRC it was Metheny who said this in 2008, I guess his fanboys are still echoing that.

Doesn't seem to include people like Jack Zucker, who seems to know a thing or two about it.

Doesn't seem to bother Zak Barrett much either... or didn't for the 12 years he played in the Bassment with him... doing shred numbers like Afro Blue, Summertime, Chromazone, One Shining Soul and some of Meshuggah's lesser known tracks..

It didn't seem to bother Lee Ritenour either when he played Sevens with Tal Wickenfield, Vinnie Collouita and Guthrie on that album he put out a while back.

Seems there's always someone prepared to sacrifice enjoying music for the sake of observing music, then think they're doing everyone else a service by being a drag.

For anyone not in the know Bebop is one strand of Jazz that a fair few people believe died in the 60s, if you want to fake it play the major scale with an added flat seventh and play the scale up and down - start on a chord tone and every strong beat will then have a chord tone...which is why the scale was invented (to play by numbers when you're playing too fast to think about what precisely you're playing) of course there's more to it than that and if you go to the Hufflepuff student common room, I'm sure there are at least twenty jazz-wizards willing to explain it to you, just follow the scent of broken biscuits

* term coined by Theodore Adornos in The Theory of Modern Music to describe ... well, some people who listen to Jazz music.

tonyrath · May 2015

By jazz I mean modal playing - bluesy jazz - tunes with passing notes using arps and modes and stuff

Some bop yes but other styles have now been developed Also play and invent a TUNE around chords - notes whatever

IMO You have to hear it to play it - and you have to know your way around the fretboard in order to be creative In order to bend and break the rules - you have to know them

frankus · May 2015

I kinda agree with internalising this stuff till it's instinct (not even referenced by name), but then again I'm not really happy about the pointless judgement that's being leveraged to make the humble-brags in this thread.

If you've not heard it before, a humble-brag is where you say something like "aw jeez, I only managed 80 roundhouse kicks in a minute today, I think I'm coming down with a cold" - the overt message is "oh noes I r unwell" the covert message is "I can do 80 roundhouse kicks in a minute, bitches!" ... the reason it's covert is because some people aren't comfortable bragging, or they're used to getting put down for bragging (or more to the point they feel put down when people counter their statements of their own awesome).

But the problem with a humble-brag is it just drags other humble-braggers out of the wood-work, people don't get the recognition that'd make them feel great... and you get a round of what Eric Berne called "Isn't it Awful".

By all means say you're the bomb at Jazz and feel great about it, few have earned it like you Tony but I think that greatness is undermined if it isn't founded on generosity and compassion - for one you'll doubt my motives for saying it. Billy Cobham is a lovely guy, to see his face fall a little speaks more volumes than Pat Metheny calling other musicians "musical necrophiliacs" or "pooched out".

Most of the great teachers I've had, are mentors or coaches. Learning the vital minor adjustments to thinking and posture that seem too easy to take seriously, but they keep me on course till I can feel/hear the benefits, at which point I take over.

So with ACM lecturers/Nashville Session Musicians (how to view practice, how to observe and accept failings, how to plot a path away from those failings, how to perform, how to relax, how to stop feeling inadequate about playing) that stuff that's required to be brought to mind with great frequency - and that's what I was coached to do, at that stage playing music is a piece of piss.

At present I'm learning kickboxing after years of Karate - ones a sport the other is martial art, people can get a blackbelt at some clubs (not mine) and be utterly useless at defending themselves (except in an internet debate).

In 2 private sessions with a UK Muay Thai champion, I've a better guard, kick and stronger punch - most of that comes from putting my feet in the right place... he took a look at my boxing and knew what to fix first. He then came up with a way to fix that by getting me to see the benefits. He had the confidence to say, okay this is a bit dull, but we'll find a way to make it genuinely exciting.

In counselling, when I learned to control my anger, I was taught to simply control my breathing and stifle the chain of physiological events, it took a few weeks - it made a shocking difference the next time someone decided to start a row with me, my heart rate didn't go up and the other guy backed down bewildered at his failed attempts to escalate the situation. I've spent years afterwards improving my understanding of family systems and transactional analysis but the reality is the profound stuff took a really short time for a great communicator to get me to experience.

You got students who don't want to practice? Well, feel sad about it or find a way to make them want to practice.. what switch got flipped in your head when you were a kid that never got flipped in theirs? Reprogram them! Save them from having a borderline personality, help them be mindful, rock their world. change your little bit of the world too.

I think it's trendy in music to be cynical, my Dad does it, some of my friends do it, but I think it's a massive impediment, frankly the ones who aren't cynical are the ones I play my best with and I'd rather play with or to, people don't share as much with cynical people - some people like that because they look around and see nothing but mediocrity - it's self fulfilling and a little delusional.

Phil_aka_Pip · May 2015

meltedbuzzbox said:

define Jazz

Interviewer: "what is jazz?"
Louis Armstrong: "Man, if you have to ask, you'll never know"

Clarky · May 2015

frankus said:
Seems there's always someone prepared to sacrifice enjoying music for the sake of observing music, then think they're doing everyone else a service by being a drag.

I couldn't agree more with this..

have a wisdom

Clarky · May 2015

time for Clarky to come out of the closet...

I'm a secret Gyspy Jazz fan

it makes me smile

tonyrath · May 2015

Frankus what a load of bollocks My post is about people who do not want to learn the basics whatever the style

1 Fretboard knowedge is required at beginner plus level ie Grade 2 in guitar exams

3 Ear training starts at absolute beginner level and is continual

frankus · May 2015

In the words of Germaine Clement "be more specific with your feedback..." or else it just seems like you want to keep hold of your belief and avoid any interaction with people who challenge that.

I've not been a teacher but I've had a lot of teachers at school who seemed to think attendance and recital was enough. I'm pretty much with George Leonards prognosis of these people: lazy.

I've coached a lot of different styles of martial arts and my biggest motivation for those people was getting them to come back - not for the money (unlike you it's not my profession). I wanted to the club to thrive and more people to share what I enjoy.

I'm trained as a scrum master - which is a business process coach and educator for (in my case) IT projects, everyone wants the shiny stuff and not the basics that have real value - the trick is playing the long game and not fucking things up by having a sulk (no matter how stupid people with a lot of authority are being).

And I've paid a lot of experts a lot of money, I'll happily handed over £50 an hour to and those people bring a hell of a lot more to the table - that's physiotherapy, psychology, guitar, boxing, kick boxing, fitness and martial arts. I have no problem paying for experience and enthusiasm, but if I don't find enthusiasm, I wouldn't be calling back.

I've no issue with truculent teachers, myself, I can leave my ego at the door to get the most from someone else's experience - and that has involved getting punched a lot and hard (which I find a lot more tolerable than sarcasm for some reason) - but I'll put the money down to the expense of finding the right teacher, if I can't get on with a teacher, frankly anything where it involves a power trip and I'm out.

What I take exception to is teachers thinking they can educate using discouragement, if they weren't so wrapped up in their own suffering they'd see it for what it is, abuse. That's poor communication skills - no need to dress it up as anything else.

If a student doesn't want the basics, I can't see the kudos in being effete about that, they don't get it? Help them, educate!

Clarky · May 2015

tonyrath said:

By jazz I mean modal playing - bluesy jazz - tunes with passing notes using arps and modes and stuff
Some bop yes but other styles have now been developed Also play and invent a TUNE around chords - notes whatever

IMO You have to hear it to play it - and you have to know your way around the fretboard in order to be creative In order to bend and break the rules - you have to know them

lil' point to note here...

the headbangers mostly play modally.. even though they mostly don't actually realise it..

Clarky · May 2015

tonyrath said:

1 Fretboard knowedge is required at beginner plus level ie Grade 2 in guitar exams
3 Ear training starts at absolute beginner level and is continual

I seriously agree with this...

I mainly teach via repertoire rather than exercises.. cos it's fun and my stude's get great satisfaction from conquering each piece.. and I think that lessons learned within the context of a song / riff / solo etc seem to stick better..

the songs I give the students are carefully chosen to either introduce them to some new technique, idea / theory thing, etc.. or to pick at a technique scab they have that needs sorting

that said... fingerboard knowledge and listening starts on lesson 1, and never stops.. it just gets more demanding.. it takes a little time before folks can hear with certainty when notes are 'in' or 'out'.. it's very cool though when you see the penny drop for them..

GuyBoden · May 2015

Clarky said:

tonyrath said:

By jazz I mean modal playing - bluesy jazz - tunes with passing notes using arps and modes and stuff
Some bop yes but other styles have now been developed Also play and invent a TUNE around chords - notes whatever

IMO You have to hear it to play it - and you have to know your way around the fretboard in order to be creative In order to bend and break the rules - you have to know them

lil' point to note here...
the headbangers mostly play modally.. even though they mostly don't actually realise it..

I don't want to get into an argument, but modal Jazz and playing modal Pop/Rock is very different harmonically. I think this difference is not quite understood by many fellow forum members, but maybe they don't even care.

To get my point, just examine the Modal harmony in older folks songs played in a mode to how Modal harmony is used in Modal Jazz.

Clarky · May 2015

to be honest.. I don't discriminate.. if you're in the key of Am and you're playing from a different key centre [A Dorian being so common] then you're playing modally.. to my mind it really is that simple..

this being the case... it's not rare for a blues / funk / rock / pop song in a major key to use Mixolydian harmony in places or throughout.. and likewise, in a minor key Dorian won't be rare either

if however you're playing over a chord progression in [or centred around] a given key, but you've treating each chord [or small groups of them] very differently harmony wise in order to create melodies / licks that are of more exotic content, then you're still playing modally.. but the difference here is that you're using a method that some refer to as Melodic Substitution..

of course melodic substitution is the bread and butter of jazz and all it's derivative styles... but jazzers ain't the only fellas that do this.. shredders like Satch and Vai etc and many prog rock / metal are big on this too.. but the reason they don't sound like jazz is that they make different choices and they're music has a different context..

so... to me... modes are modes... jazz or not.. the only difference is context and application..

btw: I'm not arguing.. just my point of view.. and if no one agrees with me.. that's cool.. and they're clearly wrong.. lmao

GuyBoden · May 2015

Clarky said:

to be honest.. I don't discriminate.. if you're in the key of Am and you're playing from a different key centre [A Dorian being so common] then you're playing modally.. to my mind it really is that simple..
this being the case... it's not rare for a blues / funk / rock / pop song in a major key to use Mixolydian harmony in places or throughout.. and likewise, in a minor key Dorian won't be rare either
if however you're playing over a chord progression in [or centred around] a given key, but you've treating each chord [or small groups of them] very differently harmony wise in order to create melodies / licks that are of more exotic content, then you're still playing modally.. but the difference here is that you're using a method that some refer to as Melodic Substitution..
of course melodic substitution is the bread and butter of jazz and all it's derivative styles... but jazzers ain't the only fellas that do this.. shredders like Satch and Vai etc and many prog rock / metal are big on this too.. but the reason they don't sound like jazz is that they make different choices and they're music has a different context..
so... to me... modes are modes... jazz or not.. the only difference is context and application..

btw: I'm not arguing.. just my point of view.. and if no one agrees with me.. that's cool.. and they're clearly wrong.. lmao

We all percieve things in different ways, the basics of what I perceive to be modal Jazz Harmony is outlined here:
The Basics of Modal Jazz Harmony

frankus · May 2015

It's a bit trite and perhaps too blunt, but I'm thinking of the old Einstein quote right about now: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." I could be wrong, but most things I believe in I can explain from a high level to people because I enjoy looking at it from their point of view..

So, to my mind, popping a link to something to explain what you believe is... well it's... it's best explained here...https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

GuyBoden · May 2015

frankus said:

It's a bit trite and perhaps too blunt, but I'm thinking of the old Einstein quote right about now: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." I could be wrong, but most things I believe in I can explain from a high level to people because I enjoy looking at it from their point of view..

So, to my mind, popping a link to something to explain what you believe is... well it's... it's best explained here...https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Frankus, yes, you're probably correct with that Einstein quote, I've tried to explain Modal Jazz Harmony in previous threads/posts, but Ted Pease explains it better than I ever could.

Just down load the lesson for free, from Berklee.
Modal Jazz Harmony

Clarky · May 2015

I think my point is getting missed a bit...

playing modes is playing modes.. any style of music can and generally does to varying degrees

playing jazz is playing jazz.. jazz styles just happen to be heavy users of modes

what my original comment was aiming at [maybe not that well] is something like this..

earlier Tony makes a great point that you have to be able 'hear' them to use them well.. totally agree.. I just popped up to say I agree.. and also to add that there are a lot of folks outside of the jazz world that have a great interest and need to understand and use / exploit modes too.. I guess my original comment didn't put across what I was thinking particularly well..

GuyBoden · May 2015

Clarky said:

I think my point is getting missed a bit...
playing modes is playing modes.. any style of music can and generally does to varying degrees
playing jazz is playing jazz.. jazz styles just happen to be heavy users of modes
what my original comment was aiming at [maybe not that well] is something like this..
earlier Tony makes a great point that you have to be able 'hear' them to use them well.. totally agree.. I just popped up to say I agree.. and also to add that there are a lot of folks outside of the jazz world that have a great interest and need to understand and use / exploit modes too.. I guess my original comment didn't put across what I was thinking particularly well..

Clarky, to me, your point is not missed, but playing older Jazz standards uses traditional harmony with 2-5-1s, 1-6-2-5s, cadences etc, where as Modal Jazz uses harmony based on each mode with the tonic centre being the mode. I may be wrong, but personally, I think that's quite a different approach.

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