Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

bloodandtears · March 2015

you don't say... lol..

frankus · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

Is that the same as diatonic chords?

bloodandtears · March 2015

Humour me then.... in the key of C major. . Suggest an F Lydian chord progression. ... G, Am, F, F ???

rlw · March 2015

frankus said:

rlw said:

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

It's as complicated as you want to make it - it boils down to:

there are only 12 different musical notes, you can play any one of them at any time in a bar but for different durations...

The rest is number wang that sounds fabulous on an internet forum but is largely (if not wholly) irrelevant on a stage.

..thus restoring my faith.........

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

Humour me then.... in the key of C major. . Suggest an F Lydian chord progression. ... G, Am, F, F ???

Simple Modal Harmony

Each Mode has a Character note.

Dorian's 6th, Phrygian's 2nd, Lydian's 4th, Mixolydian's 7th, Aeolian's 6th, Locrian's 5th and 2nd (not popular).

Tension chords contain the Mode's character note.

Non-Tension chords don't contain the Mode's character note.

When the character note is the Root of the chord it has the most tension, then it's the 5th, then the 3rd and the 7th has the weakest tension.

So, for a simple diatonic "F" Lydian Mode progression, knowing "F" Lydian's character note is the 4th, "B".

Simple three note chord example:
Chord 1 could be simply 3 note major triad F, A, C.
Chord 2 could be 3 notes F, A, B.
Chord 3 could be 3 notes E, A, B.
Chord 4 could be a E minor triad with the notes E, G, B.

Next, non-diatonic modal harmony or polymodality?

bloodandtears · March 2015

So you suggest.....

F major : F,A,C
B7 : B,F,A
A sus 2 : A,B,E
E minor : E,G,B

yet whilst my suggestions of G, Am and F were constructed of the correct scale notes (thus safe chords), only the G chord exploits the lydian raised 4th B note.. right??

I shall try these when I next have my guitar to hand... may just be joining the dots here..

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

So you suggest.....

F major : F,A,C
B7 : B,F,A
A sus 2 : A,B,E
E minor : E,G,B

yet whilst my suggestions of G, Am and F were constructed of the correct scale notes (thus safe chords), only the G chord exploits the lydian raised 4th B note.. right??

I shall try these when I next have my guitar to hand... may just be joining the dots here..

Yes, the character note "B" creates tension, as stated, you get more or less tension depending on the chord voicing (where the "B" is in the chord), you'll notice this when you play..............if you play B,F,A, that will create a lot of tension, because the "B" is the root note of the chord........

My chord examples, have nice sounding voice leading, but experiment with the "B" in various positions in each chord:
Chord 1: F, A, C.
Chord 2: F, A, B.
Chord 3: E, A, B.
Chord 4: E, G, B.

Good luck

bloodandtears · March 2015

So you are suggesting keep the "tension/flavour" as the 3rd note in a triad initially, before experimenting?

Do your triads have names??

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

So you are suggesting keep the "tension/flavour" as the 3rd note in a triad initially, before experimenting?

Do your triads have names??

To make it easy, I'm just using three notes, as you already know, it's the intervals between the notes that dictate the chord's flavour; minor, major, dim, aug, sus etc, so these 3 notes could be apart of many different chords......

Chords are just a collect of notes, if it's diatonic, they're just notes from the same scale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

bloodandtears · March 2015

Ok.. think I'm making a breakthrough albeit theoretically ...

C Mixolydian.. flattened 7th note is the flavour note.. C D E F G A Bb C

proposed chords... C, Am, Bb, Gm ... the latter two adding the tension notes

getting warm??

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

Ok.. think I'm making a breakthrough albeit theoritically ...

C Mixolydian.. flattened 7th note is the flavour note.. C D E F G A Bb C

proposed chords... C, Am, Bb, Gm ... the latter two adding the tension notes

getting warm??

Yes, that's it, personally, I think that knowing the notes in each chord instinctively, makes it much easier.

So, using your proposed Mixolydian modal progression, with voice leading harmony chords.

CMaj = C, E, G
Amin = C, E, A (triad inversion of A,C,E)
BbMaj = Bb, D, F
Gmin = Bb, D, G (triad inversion of G,Bb, D,)

Have fun

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Hey there @GuyBoden, I have seen the phrase "voice leading" used quite often, but TBH I haven't a clue what it means.

I would be really grateful for a bit of guidance. Cheers, Chris.

GuyBoden · March 2015

ChrisMusic said:

Hey there @GuyBoden, I have seen the phrase "voice leading" used quite often, but TBH I haven't a clue what it means.
I would be really grateful for a bit of guidance. Cheers, Chris.

Sorry, yes the term "Voice leading" just means using the least amount of note movement when moving to the next chord (usually using an inversion of the target chord's notes.). A half step movement sounds best, but obviously that's not always possible.

Example, if you had to move between the following two chords:

CMaj = C,E,G
Amin = A,C,E

You move the C to A (a big move)
Move E to C (a big move)
Move G to E (a big move)

or you could have better voice leading by using the following inversion of the Amin chord: C, E, A

You move the C to C (No move)
Move E to E (No move)
Move G to A (Small move)

That's all there is to voice leading really, but it can get more complex.

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Thanks @GuyBoden

Freebird · March 2015

I find the practical theory is easier to understand on a keyboard as the layout is more logical.

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Well it should be a breeze on the guitar then...

You have six parallel keyboards laid out with every note in sequence with 2 octaves on each (with 24 frets or a judicious bend or two)

Seriously though, it really is like that, just as you said originally about the simplicity of a single string.

And then look at all the expression we have at our disposal, the envy of any keyboard player

Freebird · March 2015

ChrisMusic said:

Well it should be a breeze on the guitar then...

You have six parallel keyboards laid out with every note in sequence with 2 octaves on each (with 24 frets or a judicious bend or two)

Seriously though, it really is like that, just as you said originally about the simplicity of a single string.

And then look at all the expression we have at our disposal, the envy of any keyboard player

I take it you have memorised the entire fretboard then

Actually you have cracked it, that is the way to 'visalise' the fretboard as six separate keyboards! I am defininately going to make an effort to learn the position of every single note (I know 3 1/2 strings already

)

I've got one of these for various bits and bobs, such as composing outlines, finding a melody, exploring music theory, playing simple drum patterns, etc. I would say it is quite a useful tool along with the smartphone app I mentioned above, as I can come to the fretboard with fully formed ideas. Naturally I am talking about original music here.

frankus · March 2015

If we're talking about visualising the fretboard.

I think of the first position as a banjo (utelising the open strings and detuning).
The 4 nps scales as two saxophones.
Jimmy Bruno's Five Piano's as a means of visualising the white notes on the fretboard
then much less importantly as moveable chord-melody tools
Then the country-harp - where you play hammer-ons or fretted harmonics in the same scale an octave up.
there's the lap-steel sounds of Lee Hodgson's lovely bend-combo's (I set in a CAGED framework)
the endless "bunkai" of Ted Green's Chord Chemistry

I can extemporise some of each of them, my love of the sounds they create means I stick with them whenever I'm not franitcally learning the latest tune our singer has created - playing it without capo and sneaking in sweet notes when he's not looking...

Limitation is a good thing, according to Ted Green, Wes Montgomery know 80 chords in all (Ted really knew hundreds if not thousands, intimately enough to use them for solos or chord solos too) - but every possible way of using them... so inversions and synonyms - but importantly - as sounds first - the labels REALLY don't matter, so choose two shapes and play em on different frets till you find a combination that works and you don't know why.

When you've done, successfully, ONCE, you will fundamentally understand the difference between chords and voicings.

Miles Davis played the Trumpet - range 2 octaves (equivalent to one of those CAGED patterns... just one - utterly understood, the different weight of the notes depending on the context, the notes in between ... Davis improvised by taking his solo last and pulling together all the nice sounds from the other player's solos - ahead of any theory he listened, he appreciated and he reproduced.

Do the Math on this one:

It is easier to recognise the function of a played note (only twelve), hear the type of chord (major, minor, dominant - only three) - than it is to discern bullshit musical theory (limitless) - people, eager to learn will be seduced by the "hormonal pentacostal third inversion of the phrygian major - maj 9 maj 13 scale-mode-note-cluster*" because it looks (not sounds) woo..

Do yourself a favour: buy Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist - and you'll learn the real musical terms, and fun ways to understand them, without the mysticism, from a reknowned professional musician who treats you as an equal

* AKA pentatonic minor.

Freebird · March 2015

A little theory goes a long way B-)

frankus · March 2015

Not nearly as far as a concrete bond between ears and fingers!

Learning some base 12 maths and vocab - which is all theorey is, is simple compared to the donkey work of practising chord changes... not nearly as rewarding either.

For instance - Ted Green's Modern Chord Progressions pt1 has about 20 chord progressions on the first page - he's light on talky-talky, after practising them for about 6 weeks, the progressions and the chords were sneaking into lots of my improvisations... I was not consciously thinking "hey C-7b9 will logically fit, there" no, I was thinking "how did that get there? it sounds good!" - I rarely stuffed in a crap sounding chord as long as I left my ego out of my playing. All I had to do was keep practising and keep my ego out and I was entertained and melodic too.

Prior to martial-arts training I would not have had the self discipline to set aside ego, submit to a process for an extended period of time with no assurance of results.

So, if we're playing tennis: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Freebird · March 2015

frankus said:

Not nearly as far as a concrete bond between ears and fingers!

Learning some base 12 maths and vocab - which is all theorey is, is simple compared to the donkey work of practising chord changes... not nearly as rewarding either.

For instance - Ted Green's Modern Chord Progressions pt1 has about 20 chord progressions on the first page - he's light on talky-talky, after practising them for about 6 weeks, the progressions and the chords were sneaking into lots of my improvisations... I was not consciously thinking "hey C-7b9 will logically fit, there" no, I was thinking "how did that get there? it sounds good!" - I rarely stuffed in a crap sounding chord as long as I left my ego out of my playing. All I had to do was keep practising and keep my ego out and I was entertained and melodic too.

Prior to martial-arts training I would not have had the self discipline to set aside ego, submit to a process for an extended period of time with no assurance of results.

So, if we're playing tennis: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I'm more into the creative side of things, a jack of all trades really, so the actually playing is not the most important consideration in my case. But I do get your point, and I would imagine most members on a forum like this would be biased towards the playing side of things. I've already got the makings of one great tune out of this discussion, and I actually entered the notes into my DAW with a mouse! But I did write them down on a piece of paper first after reading a bit about the Mixolydian mode, so a little bit of theory can always point you in the right direction. Sometimes ideas can also come from noodling on the guitar or keyboard, so it's a bit of either/or on my part

frankus · March 2015

I actually meant improvisation, I kinda like to think on my feet so sparring and improvisation are favourites.. well they're both improvisation in different mediums.

Thing is people obsess over notes because that transfers well to a forum or before that usenet, the whole wizard of Oz - don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain thing... there are rhythmic modes and they make the most boring of scales interesting ... but everyone's on about the notes.

There's a great demo where Victor Wooten of playing the wrong notes and making a great solo, then playing the right notes and sounding shit, notes have nothing to do with it (in my opinion it's groove).

Of course in sparring it's a lot about not getting into a rhythm as that's predictable...

I'd really recommend Victor Wooten's Groove Workshop.

MatthewShreddery · March 2015

Honestly, just watch Frank Gambale's Modes No More Mystery.

He may not explain them from a musicological standpoint, but for guitarists wanting to improvise modally it is indispensable IMHO.

bloodandtears · March 2015

Great stuff @GuyBoden ; much appreciate..

would you mind marking my homework??

I'm playing with simple chord progressions based on modes to assist my learning.. I've tried to include the flavour notes in the chord as well including it in my melodies whilst retaining the tonal root.

Progression 1) A, A, Dsus4, D : D Mixolydian?
Progression 2) Gm, C, Dm, C : G Dorian?

GuyBoden · March 2015

Knowing the fretboard is the basics.

bloodandtears said:

Great stuff @GuyBoden ; much appreciate..

would you mind marking my homework??

I'm playing with simple chord progressions based on modes to assist my learning.. I've tried to include the flavour notes in the chord as well including it in my melodies whilst retaining the tonal root.

Progression 1) A, A, Dsus4, D : D Mixolydian?
Progression 2) Gm, C, Dm, C : G Dorian?

A quick glance:

A = A C# E
D = D F# A
Dsus4 = D G A

D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C

No C# in D Mixolydian.

frankus · March 2015

Using that technique (sorta relative modes), you could just say D mixolydian is the same notes as G major...

G major diatonic chords = G maj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Ddom, Emin, Fm7b5 (note: Dom chords in a major scale = Mixolydian)

which if you start from D gives you Ddom, Emin, Fm7b5, G maj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj.

But a big factor of any scale is the 5th, the reason we have a melodic minor is because the V (fifth diatonic) chord is better if it's a dominant - so the chances are pretty strong that whilst the math may be pleasing on the eye - the progressions may lack real movement and be less than captivating to the ear.

Theory is there to explain what you're doing, not determine what you're doing.

bloodandtears · March 2015

@GuyBoden ; I meant A Mixolydian obviously ;-) (or is it simply D major)?? I guess I was trying to imply an A tonality whilst throwing in the G (flattened 7th) flavour note..

How is progression 2?

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

@GuyBoden ; I meant A Mixolydian obviously ;-) (or is it simply D major)?? I guess I was trying to imply an A tonality whilst throwing in the G (flattened 7th) flavour note..

How is progression 2?

Yes, good stuff.

Progression 2) Gm, C, Dm, C : G Dorian?

Gm = G Bb D
C = C E G
Dm = D F A

G Dorian's 6th "E" is the Character note that creates tension in a chord or solo.

IMHO, the problem I find with the Dorian mode's character note is that it doesn't add that much tension. This is why excessive noodling in Dorian over a minor chord is very common and can get tedious very quickly, so I feel it's good to add some added playing dynamics.

bloodandtears · March 2015

@GuyBoden

A C9 chord substitution will be tastier of course... in progression 2

I feel I'm getting closer... sorry for the entire blogjack and constant questions lol

Freebird · March 2015

GuyBoden said:

Knowing the fretboard is the basics.

bloodandtears said:

Great stuff @GuyBoden ; much appreciate..

would you mind marking my homework??

I'm playing with simple chord progressions based on modes to assist my learning.. I've tried to include the flavour notes in the chord as well including it in my melodies whilst retaining the tonal root.

Progression 1) A, A, Dsus4, D : D Mixolydian?
Progression 2) Gm, C, Dm, C : G Dorian?

A quick glance:

A = A C# E
D = D F# A
Dsus4 = D G A

D Mixolydian = D E F# G A B C

No C# in D Mixolydian.

D Mixolydian is very usable, well for me anyway

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Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

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