Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

Freebird · March 2015

After much confusion, I came across this fella who breaks everything down into tetrachords. So it's all about the movement then?

And here is the chart, now it's easy to run through the different modes and hear the difference .. (Tip: try it on a single string for simplicity.)

frankus · March 2015

I won't get to see the video before tomorrow night - if not Wednesday - but I'd be interested to know how it's helped you

Freebird · March 2015

frankus said:

I won't get to see the video before tomorrow night - if not Wednesday - but I'd be interested to know how it's helped you

Just visualising the pushing and the pulling of the various modes, and being able to easily play them on a single string for a quick sound comparison.

I also like the breakdown into tetrachords, and the introduction of the dreaded tritone

I can now see each mode as [1st Tetrachord] [Tritone] [2nd Tetrachord]

So for E we can divide the potential notes into [E F F# G G# A] [A#] [B C C# D D# E]

frankus · March 2015

Got ya, thanks for the info, I'll take a look.

I get modes as sounds and variations from a major scale.. and a composite of two chord types (describing all the notes in the scale) .. I'll check this out when I have time - have a wisdom for showing this to us

bloodandtears · March 2015

Whilst I grasp the tonal concept of modes.. I haven't made the link to create chord progressions to exploit these "flavours"; I'll guess that triads made from the scale notes would suffice but I'm probably wrong...

My previous experience has been noodling over static vamps provided in short backing track form.

Freebird · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

Whilst I grasp the tonal concept of modes.. I haven't made the link to create chord progressions to exploit these "flavours"; I'll guess that triads made from the scale notes would suffice but I'm probably wrong...

My previous experience has been noodling over static vamps provided in short backing track form.

Harmonizing the modes is Lesson 2 if anybody wants to chip in

A lot of people struggle with the concept of modes, and that is the reason why I posted this 'introductory' piece.

bloodandtears · March 2015

@Freebird ; make sure to tag me when its up.. deffo interested..

Freebird · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

@Freebird ; make sure to tag me when its up.. deffo interested..

Have a read here, it's fairly concise.

Basically you have to built chords that include the altered notes. The last link also includes suggested chord progressions for each mode.

http://www.riddleworks.com/modes.html

http://www.riddleworks.com/modes2.html

http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm.html

http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm2.html

http://www.riddleworks.com/chords.html

http://www.jamplay.com/articles/5-guides/120-modal-chord-progressions

Freebird · March 2015

While I'm at it, I would also like to recommend this smartphone/tablet app: http://getchord.com/

It's well worth the couple of quid for the pro version, although there is also a restricted free version.

It was a trivial task to harmonise each mode once I knew what I was doing. You can fine-tune the results to a granular level, e.g. choose the number of notes from 1 to 7. So if you set it to 4 notes, it will automatically build chords around the altered notes.

The app also does tons of other useful stuff, too numerous to mention here.

Note: I have no affiliation with this product besides being a satisfied paying customer.

frankus · March 2015

Using modes in chords I use this idea:

if you line up the modes in a fashion that they get darker each time: lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian then you get the idea of something akin to declension in languages.. likewise the chords change always in this pattern:

Major -> Major -> Dominant -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor7 flat5 -> (repeat from the top a semitone down).

bloodandtears · March 2015

So I wasn't far wrong then??

Freebird · March 2015

frankus said:

Using modes in chords I use this idea:

if you line up the modes in a fashion that they get darker each time: lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian then you get the idea of something akin to declension in languages.. likewise the chords change always in this pattern:

Major -> Major -> Dominant -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor7 flat5 -> (repeat from the top a semitone down).

I'll have a look at this, but I am only on Day 2 of modes >:D<

The 2nd link I posted above has a similar idea, only in a slightly different order.

axisus · March 2015

I don't get modes at all, but I have found a secret cheat that kind of works.

Freebird · March 2015

axisus said:

I don't get modes at all, but I have found a secret cheat that kind of works.

Me too, it's called Chord! app LOL. Using the dark arts contained within this thread, I've just knocked out a little synth ditty in around 5 minutes that already sounds chart worthy :-S

viz · March 2015

frankus said:

Using modes in chords I use this idea:

if you line up the modes in a fashion that they get darker each time: lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian then you get the idea of something akin to declension in languages.. likewise the chords change always in this pattern:

Major -> Major -> Dominant -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor -> Minor7 flat5 -> (repeat from the top a semitone down).

Yes that's awesome. And another way to look at them is as parallel couplets:

Ionian and Aeolian are the natural major and minor. Aeolian is the relative minor of Ionian, three semitones below.

Lydian and Dorian are the sweeter modes of each respectively; (Lydian is a sweet major with a sharpened 4th; Dorian is a sweet minor with a sharpened 6th)

Mixolydian and Phrygian are darker modes of each; (Mixolydian is a dark major with a flattened 7th; Phrygian is a dark minor with a flattened 2nd).

In both the Minor and the Major case, the relationship between the natural, the sweet and the flat is I, IV, V (or I, +IV, -IV). In other words when you go up a 4th, you sweeten the natural with a sharpened note; and when you go down a 4th, you darken the natural with a flatter note.

As the major and minor modes are both characterised by I, IV, V, this also means that, in the same way as the Aeolian is the relative minor of Ionian, so is Dorian of Lydian, and Phrygian of Mixolydian.

So it's good to think of these modes as major/minor pairs, where the major is 3 semitones above its relative minor, for each pair.

That can help when moving between major and minor, within the relative, regardless of what mode you're playing in.

Freebird · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

So I wasn't far wrong then??

I wouldn't like to give advice at the moment, but it seems that you can build extended chords using the altered notes.

In saying that, I just used the 1st and maj/min 3rd notes for the harmonization and it sounds superb. I've probably done something wrong though B-)

frankus · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

So I wasn't far wrong then??

You were right, yep.

Personally I only remember modes by the notes/sounds that make them different from the major scale, or as two adjacent chords.

Chords I think of in a few dimensions - major, minor, dominant, more or less information.

I think of voicings and scale patterns as streetmaps - I don't want to go down every street

I am a bear of little brain and that helps to enjoy myself

GuyBoden · March 2015

Freebird said:

After much confusion, I came across this fella who breaks everything down into tetrachords. So it's all about the movement then?

And here is the chart, now it's easy to run through the different modes and hear the difference .. (Tip: try it on a single string for simplicity.)

Tetra chords and Modal harmony, I think he must have read the classic Jazz book "Ron Miller : Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony"

Sambostar · March 2015

I understand modes, starting on degrees of scale etc and hear the obvious overall tonality, but can't grasp the subtlety of the actual tones relative to the root tone in real life, although I struggle with links in to chords progression too. Will study the video, but it looks confusing to me. Think I'd rather just hear progressions.

ChrisMusic · March 2015

These two introductory videos helped me understand the modes.

I think they each explain it well, and even better to watch both.

I hope this will make it easier for some of you in getting a handle on this topic.

Great video you found there @Freebird, that's given me another very useful perspective on them, thanks

Here's Rex Pearson's lesson, I recall it being quite good, this is his one on the Modes...

Duration 11:50

Apologies if you are easily 'Chapper-fended', but his one is split between two lessons, and I think is worth watching too...

Duration 7:47

Duration 7:46

Freebird · March 2015

ChrisMusic said:

These two introductory videos helped me understand the modes.
I think they each explain it well, and even better to watch both.
I hope this will make it easier for some of you in getting a handle on this topic.

Great video you found there @Freebird, that's given me another very useful perspective on them, thanks

It seems to me that when investigating the modes it pays to look at them from as many different angles as possible.

Thanks for your videos and something else to ponder

frankus · March 2015

Sambostar said:

I understand modes, starting on degrees of scale etc and hear the obvious overall tonality, but can't grasp the subtlety of the actual tones relative to the root tone in real life, although I struggle with links in to chords progression too. Will study the video, but it looks confusing to me. Think I'd rather just hear progressions.

Hi Sambostar - I don't know if this will help, but I've found in chess playing that the terms for actions has helped me understand stuff a little better: pins, splits and so on, sometimes the vocabulary clarifies stuff - so I'm wondering if it's the same here.

Modes are used in two different ways:

Modes created from a common root note are known as relative modes - C major, C lydian, Cmixolydian, C dorian etc.. they're all relative to the same root note. This kinda stuff is used by Joe Satriani in his "pitch axis approach" given a C5 power chord he can use the C relative modes to create movement in the music.

Modes starting on degrees of the scale are known as derivative modes - they're derived from one key signature... C major, G mixolydian, F lydian, D dorian... etc. For this you're always playing the notes of C major but the chords or bassline beneath is changing the context of those notes. Youtube Guthrie Govan's Pirate Modes for an audio example of this - if you've not seen it before.

Often people don't differentiate between the two when they're talking about modes and it gets confusing trying to follow the discussion.

ftumch · March 2015

axisus said:

I don't get modes at all, but I have found a secret cheat that kind of works.

Well don't keep us in suspenders, share

ChrisMusic · March 2015

Freebird said: It seems to me that when investigating the modes it pays to look at them from as many different viewpoints as possible.

I think that is a very healthy way to view the world in general. The more different perspectives you take on any subject, the less two dimensional things and ideas are, and the more three dimensional your reality becomes. Walk around a statue, read around a subject, watch a number of videos on YT about anything, talk to ten different people and get ten different opinions (or more!), just to see this notion in motion.

See the world through other's eyes, and build a perspective and understanding. Find the viewpoints that resonate and help you grow.

Do bear in mind that all reality is just an illusion created by the brain.

A construct, for the simple convenience of our survival !

Duration 2:07

There are hundreds of talented street artists out there creating some fantastic illusional art...

Duration 2:51

And one more for the road...

please excuse the naff narration, but it shows how questionable our sense of reality is, including the 'Tritone Paradox'.

It's all a matter of perspective right ?

Duration 6:26

Sorry for the slight side-track.

As you were folks,

back to Modes...

GuyBoden · March 2015

frankus said:

Modes are used in two different ways:

Modes created from a common root note are known as relative modes - C major, C lydian, Cmixolydian, C dorian etc.. they're all relative to the same root note. This kinda stuff is used by Joe Satriani in his "pitch axis approach" given a C5 power chord he can use the C relative modes to create movement in the music.

Modes starting on degrees of the scale are known as derivative modes - they're derived from one key signature... C major, G mixolydian, F lydian, D dorian... etc. For this you're always playing the notes of C major but the chords or bassline beneath is changing the context of those notes. Youtube Guthrie Govan's Pirate Modes for an audio example of this - if you've not seen it before.

Often people don't differentiate between the two when they're talking about modes and it gets confusing trying to follow the discussion.

I've never heard of "derivative modes", but we all live and learn. I'm guessing that this must be the diatonic harmony derived from the the tonic mode's scale.

Knowing that each mode has a "character note" was extremely useful for my Modal playing, any chord that contains this "character note" sounds unstable and wants to resolve to a more stable chord in the mode's harmony.

This is similar to common functional harmony where the Ionian scale has the "character note" a perfect 4th, so any chord that contains "character note" a perfect 4th will sound like it needs to resolve.

rlw · March 2015

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

ChrisMusic · March 2015

I love his way of laying out four note sequences on paper and working from there. A great way to view this, and a useful creative technique.

One thing though. If you think about it, the whole-tone segment is fully included in the Ionian major scale, it is scale degrees 4, 5, 6, 7. With it starting on the Lydian root, I would have thought that would make it a natural candidate for being called the Lydian sequence, with it's characteristic sharpened fourth.

With the whole-tone sequence that he has used on his paper sample, topping and tailing that with a semitone puts it in full major scale context. Topping and tailing with a whole-tone gives the full 6 note whole-tone scale, or 7 notes to the octave resolution.

It would complicate his diagram, but you can overlay the four whole-tone segment to see what I mean, you don't need the whole-tone scale to justify it..

A worthy addition, IMHO, would be to have a four note sequence from the half-whole tone scale. (8 notes and 9 to the octave resolution). That is another flavour to mix into making your own modal sequences.

Whole-half tone scale is easy, and it comes from consecutive Dorian sequences with the paper a semitone apart instead of a tone apart.

Do let me know if I have got any of this wrong, after all I am still climbing the learning curve myself.

http://i.imgur.com/fwg7DiL.jpg

Great thread / discussion @Freebird, lots to think about

frankus · March 2015

rlw said:

Fuck me but this is all very complicated isn't it.....

It's as complicated as you want to make it - it boils down to:

there are only 12 different musical notes, you can play any one of them at any time in a bar but for different durations...

The rest is number wang that sounds fabulous on an internet forum but is largely (if not wholly) irrelevant on a stage.

GuyBoden · March 2015

ChrisMusic said:

I love his way of laying out four note sequences on paper and working from there. A great way to view this, and a useful creative technique.

One thing though. If you think about it, the whole-tone segment is fully included in the Ionian major scale, it is scale degrees 4, 5, 6, 7. With it starting on the Lydian root, I would have thought that would make it a natural candidate for being called the Lydian sequence, with it's characteristic sharpened fourth.

With the whole-tone sequence that he has used on his paper sample, topping and tailing that with a semitone puts it in full major scale context. Topping and tailing with a whole-tone gives the full 6 note whole-tone scale, or 7 notes to the octave resolution.

It would complicate his diagram, but you can overlay the four whole-tone segment to see what I mean, you don't need the whole-tone scale to justify it..

A worthy addition, IMHO, would be to have a four note sequence from the half-whole tone scale. (8 notes and 9 to the octave resolution). That is another flavour to mix into making your own modal sequences.

Whole-half tone scale is easy, and it comes from consecutive Dorian sequences with the paper a semitone apart instead of a tone apart.

Do let me know if I have got any of this wrong, after all I am still climbing the learning curve myself.

http://i.imgur.com/fwg7DiL.jpg

Great thread / discussion @Freebird, lots to think about

IMHO, after too many years of playing Jazz, the basic info I needed to know was the character note of each mode and the mode's harmonic chord tones. Otherwise solos sound like meandering noodling.

bloodandtears · March 2015

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

GuyBoden · March 2015

bloodandtears said:

By "Harmonic Chord Tones" I assume you mean chords in progressions that facilitate the mode?

Yes, that's it, but as always it's easier said than done.

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Modes - A breakthrough for me :)

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