Victory Amps Launching tomorrow!!

Drew_TNBD · October 2013

spacecadet said:

Your PA should cover your needs

Aye, and it does! It's just in the form of a box that has 4 speakers in it and my amp sits on top of it!

steamabacus · October 2013

Back in the day .....

17 watts was stupendously loud

"Never, since the arrival of rock music, has so much hearing loss been suffered by so many, caused by so few." - Jeff Beck

spacecadet · October 2013

digitalscream said:

I suggest you moderate your tone. Just about everybody in this thread has 10+ years of gigging experience; you acting superior (and sounding like a stuck record without actually responding to any of the points that anybody's made in any meaningful way) just makes you look like a bit of a dick.

And how many years experience have I had? I started playing live when I was 15. I am now 36. I have done gigs virtually every week since in many different styles with many different rigs ranging from a school hall to a basement bar to restaurants to clubs to festivals to stadiums. Ok, only ever one stadium but still. My experience is vast. I am comfortable with being a dick. I will lose no sleep over it. I have argued my point and will happily challenge anyone to prove me wrong. It wouldn't happen. In the right scenario 10 watts is enough. In the wrong scenario it's not. Thats what I have said. A feature set is what it is. It works for some and not for others. I have responded to points made with valid arguments and I have also read others valid arguments. All it comes down to is preference and choice. I choose one thing, you choose another. Simples.

hotpickups · October 2013

Ok that's it! I'm unsubscribing from this thread. This would have never happened over at musicradar.com. Before I go a word of advice guys and that is just let things go. Sometimes it just isn't worth the battle

spacecadet · October 2013

Also my dads bigger than your dad! I love you all.

guitarfishbay · October 2013

Aha, the wattage debate again.

10 watts is no use to me in my current situation.

Though I'm actively gigging as a percussionist I am not actively gigging as a guitarist at this moment in time. I am however rehearsing at least once per week as a guitarist in a band, and also doing amateur recording on the side as and when I can.

A 50/100 watt amp is the only thing that makes sense in my situation, otherwise I just don't hear myself properly when we practice at proper volumes - i.e. those set by a rock/metal drummer with a well maintained pro standard kit. There is a PA in the room and it is only powerful enough for vocals and that is it. Better PA is on a long list of needed things, one thing at a time. For now what we have works.

An Axe FX/Kemper is designed specifically to emulate the model you choose - so if you're telling it to emulate a 100 watt half stack a comparable sound should come out from the unit, the fact the unit isn't 100 watts itself makes no difference in that instance as the PA in theory receives a signal that is similar to the real thing.

Micing a real amp for recording, the wattage does make a difference. A 15 watt amp does not have the girth of a 100 watt amp and it is obvious under a mic in a recording. I have a strong interest in recording and in the genres I am most interested in (rock and metal) people mostly either use 100 watt half stacks, or emulations of them. I don't know of anyone recording material seriously on low wattage amps, most things are still 5150 or Dual Rec or Marshall as they have been for a long time.

That doesn't mean low wattage amps don't sound good, they have their uses and are sometimes a better choice for a lot of genres. But if I want a wall of sound high gain tone and I want to use a real amp not a modeller I'm going straight to a 50/100 watt amp and a 4x12. If I used the modeller I'd use the emulation of said setup.

If I owned a 10 watt amp I could use it for practicing, or recording (but the tone wouldn't be what I wanted). It would be no use in my rehearsal room, and as has been mentioned some live music venues at the low end of the circuit have dire PAs. I don't see a point in owning anything low wattage when a high wattage amp can be used at any volume needed and produces the tone I want for recording.

jpfamps · October 2013

I provided backline for a show recently at a decent sized venue (realistically around 500 capacity).

The guitarist specified a channel switching Marshall + 4x12 and we provide an 80s 50W JCM800.

This was loud enough that the FOH engineer had none going through the PA.

The problem was of course that the singer couldn't hear any vocals through the wedges as all you could hear on stage was the guitar.

Incredulously the guitarist wanted guitar through his wedge monitor as well!

If the guitar was quieter on stage then the vocal monitoring issue would not have occured (IEM would also have worked but the band specified wedges).

Mind you the guitarist might not have enoyed his gig as much........

guitarfishbay · October 2013

hotpickups said:

Ok that's it! I'm unsubscribing from this thread. This would have never happened over at musicradar.com. Before I go a word of advice guys and that is just let things go. Sometimes it just isn't worth the battle

In fairness the wattage debate happened at least monthly on the MR forum.

Some people don't need higher wattage because of either volume, features, or tone. Usually these are people who don't play in loud bands (at the low end of the circuit) or they are people with access to good PAs at the middle and above ends of the circuit.

Some people do need high wattage because of tone, features, or volume (i.e. rehearsal with poor PA, some gigs with poor provided PA). This probably applies to most members playing the rock/metal originals circuit, as as has been discussed there are a lot of really poor venues. Not to mention if you rehearse in a regular sized rehearsal room with a drummer hitting at full pelt 10 watts just won't cut it with no PA support. We can get in to practicing theory and volumes but the fact is that at some point you need to do dry runs at high volume and if you can't hear yourself you can't practice properly.

rockmonster · October 2013

hotpickups said:

This is all getting very boring guys. Can we just move on and talk about kit and not carrying on our disputes and prejudices

agreed!

daveyh · October 2013

guitarfishbay said:

- i.e. those set by a rock/metal drummer with a well maintained pro standard kit.

Small point - is the drummer pro standard to match the kit? Playing with a drummer who can actually vary their volume by the way they play and set up their kit is a revelation and a lot of this argument becomes moot.

ourmaninthenorth · October 2013

Tools for the job....

I'm using this.....

2 Watts. My audience ( ie the Wife) can hear it just fine.

Although I've also used these, and again everybody could hear it just fine, however judging by some often received comments some people wished they couldn't...

b-(

digitalscream · October 2013

For what it's worth, I rehearse and gig (soon) with a 20W Jet City, which just has enough headroom to do the job, and sounds bloody brilliant when pushed. I've tried with a 12W amp in the past (one of the new VHTs), and it just couldn't cope at all, even with the drummer making every effort to behave himself.

guitarfishbay · October 2013

daveyh said:

guitarfishbay said:

- i.e. those set by a rock/metal drummer with a well maintained pro standard kit.

Small point - is the drummer pro standard to match the kit? Playing with a drummer who can actually vary their volume by the way they play and set up their kit is a revelation and a lot of this argument becomes moot.

We practice at a low/moderate volume usually, however when doing a dry run at high volume he hits as hard as he would for a gig or recording session, which gets very loud due to the style we play. We have to use earplugs because of the proximity to the drumkit and cymbals when he's playing that loud, which raises the volume we need to set the amps too. But we feel it is absolutely necessary to rehearse at that kind of energy level at certain times otherwise we won't be able to actually rehearse what we will be like at gigs, especially the drummer. Rock toms just don't sound or feel right played lightly.

Regardless, the drummer is pro standard. He's a drum teacher and active in three higher standard function bands spanning from jazz to rock music. On paper that means nothing (I've met a lot of musicians with great experience/qualifications on paper but can't back it up with ability) but I would class him as being very good.

Myself I can't justify owning a 10 watt amp because it is money tied up in something that I'd find restrictive. It won't sound right for recording and it won't cut it in the rehearsal room if we play loud.

Also it won't look right on stage either, again I'm not at the stage where buying a dummy rig for looks makes any sense. It just doesn't look right for a rock band to play small combos on stage, half stacks are part of the image, as is our drummers rediculous kit (which has increased in size since this photo to the point we've had to ban him from bringing it to rehearsal as setup time was too great).

guitarfishbay · October 2013

FWIW this is my main rig. It can be set below speaking volume if required. It has more options than pretty much any other single valve amp head going and paired with a few pedals, mics and another cab with greenbacks I feel I can cover any recording tone I personally want to achieve. I wouldn't rule out going Axe/Kemper if my band is successful and tours extensively, however I'd still want to own this for my own personal tastes because I really think it is superb.

I bought all of the pieces used and my total spend was roughly the same price as the V100 watt head, so I am the target market I guess. The V100 doesn't have the features I'd want though. For £100 more than the V100 I'd pick a Recto Reborn if I was forced to buy new, at that price I just don't think the V100 feature set competes with that of the Mesa head, and it has been imported and the price inflated greatly already.

Drew_TNBD · October 2013

daveyh;48628" said:
Small point - is the drummer pro standard to match the kit? Playing with a drummer who can actually vary their volume by the way they play and set up their kit is a revelation and a lot of this argument becomes moot.

I used to be in a band once. We were trying to play a sort of hardcore post-rocky thing with a pop edge. Think Oceansize meets Oasis. The drummer was chiefly a Jazz drummer, and it just did not work. He couldn't hit the snare hard enough for the rock thing to happen, and his timing was very behind the beat.

Now he was an incredible drummer. He really could drum. But it wasn't the genre for him.

People need to let go of the idea of volume being a bad thing. Being too loud (or at least YOUR idea of too loud) is not necessarily because the person is not talented enough, or hasn't made the right gear choices. Sometimes they've made the CHOICE to be that loud, for aesthetic reasons.

Danny1969 · October 2013

Drew_fx said:

spacecadet;48522" said:
The point has been made. 10 watts probably won't get you a super clean sound over a drummer. If you have a PA, and monitors you will be fine. You can gig it. THATS THE POINT. Not once have I said 10 watts is loud enough on it's own.

As far as educating people, yes it's patronising but I am seeing people that bloody well deserve it. The ignorance is astounding! "I have to have a million watts so I can hear myself or get over the drummer/ bass player/ screaming girls". Bollocks. If you don't have a PA or monitors, 10w aint cutting it. If you do it's fine. It's more than enough. I'll bet there are some of you that get to a gig and dial in your sound that you think sounds great too. It almost certainly does. BUT, what happens when everyone else kicks in. You get lost an no one can hear that incredible solo you just did. Oh, unless of course you have a million watts turned up full and thats all anyone can hear.
It almost sounds like you've never been in a real band before.

Or have you ever played a venue where the PA is barely powerful enough to handle kick drum and vocals at the same time, let alone guitars and bass as well?

If you're playing giant stages to thousands of people, you HAVE to be mic'd up. In small clubs, it isn't necessary. We have watts for a reason - to get volume. Put the cabs on the stage, face them slightly away from the audience. Dial in your sound to fit the environment, don't just go "I usually use 11" .... that is as stupid as insisting that a 1x12 10watt combo is going to cut it in a metal band, it just isn't. The whole culture of guitar backs this up; if we didn't need 4x12s and 100 watt amps, we wouldn't want them, and if we didn't want them, they wouldn't make them

If the PA can handle the kick drum then handling guitars wouldn't be a problem as guitars have very little low end

We don't need 4 x 12"s or 100 watt amps. It's a style thing, guitar players buy them because they look rock & roll, not for any practical reason.

daveyh · October 2013

Drew_fx said:

People need to let go of the idea of volume being a bad thing. Being too loud (or at least YOUR idea of too loud) is not necessarily because the person is not talented enough, or hasn't made the right gear choices. Sometimes they've made the CHOICE to be that loud, for aesthetic reasons.

That they've made that choice is great, and volume per se isn't a bad thing, but there also a time when it's not just about your choices and that there are other considerations. I personally wouldn't want things to be quiet, but I would rather have a small amp working hard, mic'ed up with loud, well mixed, controllable stage volume that doesn't compromise FoH.

guitarfishbay · October 2013

Danny1969 said:

Drew_fx said:

spacecadet;48522" said:
The point has been made. 10 watts probably won't get you a super clean sound over a drummer. If you have a PA, and monitors you will be fine. You can gig it. THATS THE POINT. Not once have I said 10 watts is loud enough on it's own.

As far as educating people, yes it's patronising but I am seeing people that bloody well deserve it. The ignorance is astounding! "I have to have a million watts so I can hear myself or get over the drummer/ bass player/ screaming girls". Bollocks. If you don't have a PA or monitors, 10w aint cutting it. If you do it's fine. It's more than enough. I'll bet there are some of you that get to a gig and dial in your sound that you think sounds great too. It almost certainly does. BUT, what happens when everyone else kicks in. You get lost an no one can hear that incredible solo you just did. Oh, unless of course you have a million watts turned up full and thats all anyone can hear.
It almost sounds like you've never been in a real band before.

Or have you ever played a venue where the PA is barely powerful enough to handle kick drum and vocals at the same time, let alone guitars and bass as well?

If you're playing giant stages to thousands of people, you HAVE to be mic'd up. In small clubs, it isn't necessary. We have watts for a reason - to get volume. Put the cabs on the stage, face them slightly away from the audience. Dial in your sound to fit the environment, don't just go "I usually use 11" .... that is as stupid as insisting that a 1x12 10watt combo is going to cut it in a metal band, it just isn't. The whole culture of guitar backs this up; if we didn't need 4x12s and 100 watt amps, we wouldn't want them, and if we didn't want them, they wouldn't make them

If the PA can handle the kick drum then handling guitars wouldn't be a problem as guitars have very little low end
We don't need 4 x 12"s or 100 watt amps. It's a style thing, guitar players buy them because they look rock & roll, not for any practical reason.

They also sound rock n roll. If you go to a recording studio that specialise in rock/metal music they absolutely will have and use 100 watt amps and 4x12s (or Kemper/Axe/other emulations of them) because they sound more appropriate, under a mic, even when not that loud.

I sold my 1x12 cab because it sounded very compressed under a mic for home recording. Now I use 2x12 and 4x12 cabs with the exact same speaker and get a much bigger sound.

I have done my own tests over time comparing things from 1 watt amps to 100 watt amps and comparing cabs of various sizes. I've owned several cabs with a V30 in - Orange PPC112, Blackstar Artisan 2x12, Mesa Rectifier 2x12, Zilla Fatboy 2x12, Line 6 Spider Valve 4x12, Blackstar S1 4x12, Laney TT412 and Mesa Rectifier 4x12.

IMO the Mesa 4x12 sounds the best, it is also the biggest cab (save for the Blackstar cab which is the same size with a slightly different design).

A lower powered amp and 1x12 cab just can not produce the same tone. I have tried, and it doesn't work that way. It is a tone thing, not a volume thing. As I stated earlier I can run my Mesa rig super quiet (and I do a lot of the time) so there is literally no point in me owning a low wattage amp and small cab.

As far as I'm concerned my choices are high quality halfstack or Axe FX/Kemper FRFR rig. All the in between products compromise on too many things when it comes to modern rock/metal, especially low wattage valve amps and 1x12 cabs. If I had different goals I'd use different gear.

hotpickups · October 2013

True but it never got so heated
Like it was becoming here. Yes I'm back. Looking more interesting now all the bickering has gone

guitarfishbay;48614" said:
hotpickups said:

Ok that's it! I'm unsubscribing from this thread. This would have never happened over at musicradar.com. Before I go a word of advice guys and that is just let things go. Sometimes it just isn't worth the battle

In fairness the wattage debate happened at least monthly on the MR forum.

Some people don't need higher wattage because of either volume, features, or tone. Usually these are people who don't play in loud bands (at the low end of the circuit) or they are people with access to good PAs at the middle and above ends of the circuit.

Some people do need high wattage because of tone, features, or volume (i.e. rehearsal with poor PA, some gigs with poor provided PA). This probably applies to most members playing the rock/metal originals circuit, as as has been discussed there are a lot of really poor venues. Not to mention if you rehearse in a regular sized rehearsal room with a drummer hitting at full pelt 10 watts just won't cut it with no PA support. We can get in to practicing theory and volumes but the fact is that at some point you need to do dry runs at high volume and if you can't hear yourself you can't practice properly.

Dave_Mc · October 2013

I don't gig at all.

) All I know is, even at the home levels I play at, for certain tones, I prefer the sound of higher wattage amps, for a number of reasons. I also have lower wattage and different style amps for when I prefer a different type of tone.

Can some people gig with single-enders? I'm sure they probably can [I note though that I never said they couldn't, whereas you (spacecadet) most certainly did say that anyone who couldn't gig with 10 watts needed to be educated]. Does that mean everyone can, or that people need to be educated? I dunno.

But if you'll forgive me, I'll find a better teacher to "educate me". Belligerence and condescension are rarely good traits in a teacher, I find.

Lodious · October 2013

OK, so who is going down to Andertons / Peach to try these at the weekend?

spacecadet · October 2013

Ok, let me just apologise if I have come across in anyway condescending, patronising, dickish or anything else derogatory. It was never my intention to upset anyone or get anyones back up.

My education comment was a valid one. There are people that do need educating. Hell, thats why some of us are on here. To learn. The people that need this most are the ones that clearly make a comment about something yet have no experience or knowledge in that field but are possibly respected members that the newer guys look up to for said education. For the sake of the new/ younger/ inexperienced guys/ gals, lets not say something is incapable of doing something or it's shit with no valid explanation of why with first hand experience.

Many times in this thread I have said "if it works for you". Thats the point here. Just to reiterate, what works for me won't work for you or for someone else. Tastes, choices and all that good stuff. I come in peace.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2013

Lodious;48918" said:
OK, so who is going down to Andertons / Peach to try these at the weekend?

I might be tomorrow. If I can get a couple of mates to chip in for fuel...

Dave_Mc · October 2013

spacecadet said:

Ok, let me just apologise if I have come across in anyway condescending, patronising, dickish or anything else derogatory. It was never my intention to upset anyone or get anyones back up.

My education comment was a valid one. There are people that do need educating. Hell, thats why some of us are on here. To learn. The people that need this most are the ones that clearly make a comment about something yet have no experience or knowledge in that field but are possibly respected members that the newer guys look up to for said education. For the sake of the new/ younger/ inexperienced guys/ gals, lets not say something is incapable of doing something or it's shit with no valid explanation of why with first hand experience.

Many times in this thread I have said "if it works for you". Thats the point here. Just to reiterate, what works for me won't work for you or for someone else. Tastes, choices and all that good stuff. I come in peace.

No worries

I'd certainly agree with not saying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about (do as I say, not as I do, obviously >:D<). At the same time, there's a fine line between not pigeonholing something (which I agree with) and almost claiming that you can use any kit for any type of music in any situation. Just because you can make something work at a pinch doesn't mean it's necessarily the best tool for the job, either.

Not that anyone here was really saying that, but I see that kind of stuff posted elsewhere.

Drew_TNBD · October 2013

Danny1969 said:

Drew_fx said:

spacecadet;48522" said:
The point has been made. 10 watts probably won't get you a super clean sound over a drummer. If you have a PA, and monitors you will be fine. You can gig it. THATS THE POINT. Not once have I said 10 watts is loud enough on it's own.

As far as educating people, yes it's patronising but I am seeing people that bloody well deserve it. The ignorance is astounding! "I have to have a million watts so I can hear myself or get over the drummer/ bass player/ screaming girls". Bollocks. If you don't have a PA or monitors, 10w aint cutting it. If you do it's fine. It's more than enough. I'll bet there are some of you that get to a gig and dial in your sound that you think sounds great too. It almost certainly does. BUT, what happens when everyone else kicks in. You get lost an no one can hear that incredible solo you just did. Oh, unless of course you have a million watts turned up full and thats all anyone can hear.
It almost sounds like you've never been in a real band before.

Or have you ever played a venue where the PA is barely powerful enough to handle kick drum and vocals at the same time, let alone guitars and bass as well?

If you're playing giant stages to thousands of people, you HAVE to be mic'd up. In small clubs, it isn't necessary. We have watts for a reason - to get volume. Put the cabs on the stage, face them slightly away from the audience. Dial in your sound to fit the environment, don't just go "I usually use 11" .... that is as stupid as insisting that a 1x12 10watt combo is going to cut it in a metal band, it just isn't. The whole culture of guitar backs this up; if we didn't need 4x12s and 100 watt amps, we wouldn't want them, and if we didn't want them, they wouldn't make them

If the PA can handle the kick drum then handling guitars wouldn't be a problem as guitars have very little low end
We don't need 4 x 12"s or 100 watt amps. It's a style thing, guitar players buy them because they look rock & roll, not for any practical reason.

I disagree. Having put kick+snare+guitar 1+guitar 2+bass+vocals through really shit PA's... I can categorically say that for us, it totally does not work. Way better off cranking the amps.

As for "need" - I've lost count how many times I've had to explain to guitarists that 100-watts is about clean headroom. There is actually only about 3dB in volume between a 50watt head and a 100watt head. But the 100watt wont break up as earlier. I personally DO NOT LIKE poweramp distortion. I find it compresses too much and loses a lot of the sudden OOMPF on chuggy powerchords.

digitalscream · October 2013

Drew_fx said:
As for "need" - I've lost count how many times I've had to explain to guitarists that 100-watts is about clean headroom. There is actually only about 3dB in volume between a 50watt head and a 100watt head. But the 100watt wont break up as earlier. I personally DO NOT LIKE poweramp distortion. I find it compresses too much and loses a lot of the sudden OOMPF on chuggy powerchords.

Indeed. I've found that a lot of low-wattage amps can barely manage a pure clean tone at anything more than shouting volume, which is fine in the situation where you have a good PA and enough monitor channels to handle it, but not otherwise.

I'm kind of stuck here, though, because I've found that the best amp for my crunch and lead sounds is my 20W JCA, which is just past the point of power valve breakup; I'm normally with you on that score, but the other attributes of this amp (proper low-end grunt that seems to be absent from the 50W and 100W versions, probably due to the effects loop position) make me forgive the little bit of fuzziness that goes with it.

markjwgraham · October 2013

Personally, I'm pleased to hear MK is making a go of it with some recognised names backing him.

I think the amps look nice aesthetically, however I've not yet heard sounds that make me want to try them. There was a video with Guthrie playing through one recently, and even though I wasn't sure if it was the new Charvel or the Victory amp responsible for it, but I thought his tone was absolutely shocking... and not in a good way.

Perhaps that was a prototype, or perhaps it wasn't set/mic'd right, whatever it was... the little I've heard hasn't inspired me to find more.

From a business point of view, I don't know whether it's overpriced or not. If they can show me where the value is in their product, I'd buy it. But so far - again, from the relatively little I've heard - I'm not hearing the tone revolution that lots of the net hype is raising.

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