Help to break away from pure pentatonics

pickerg · November 2013

Great thread, some great advice with hours of material. I'll echo what has already been said by a few people: what has really started to work for me is to think in chords rather than scales. Spend some time targeting chord notes, using chord positions close to each other for each chord - this gets you used to all the different shapes rather than just relying on your most comfortable ones.

Once you can do this then I would start looking at adding some of the extra notes, or using tones from some of the more exotic scales mentioned.

frankus · November 2013

AndyJP said:

I quite like playing Pentatonics with some additional notes from the modes to spice it up. For example putting a major sixth into a minor pentatonic to give a Dorian flavour without screaming "I'm playing Dorian now!". The infinite guitar website has some good articles in this. Over some chord progressions mixing major and minor Pentatonics works really well too. that's my 2p....

Thing is the 4th (all that's different between a dorian and pentatonic minor + major 6th) isn't going to make people believe they're hearing dorian and not pentatonic.

Pentatonics are really a fingering pattern that simply avoids semitone clashes. Move it a semitone down and it'll still have some sort of musical context - by virtue of it's structure.

Minor 3rd, Major 6th and b7th gives any listener enough information to know they're hearing a dorian ... doesn't matter if you're playing pentatonic with an added 6th or apreggiating a Dm7 and an Em triad, or playing F lydian over a D minor chord - the sound is dorian.

JAYJO · November 2013

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

I use the pentatonics as a crutch. Though im now starting to think of melody more than shapes. playing over tracks (any from radio etc) I quickly find the key and soon enough im moving through pentatonic shapes.eventually adding a note or two that sound good. By now im not thinking shapes just melody and i find i can play more relaxed and with a lot more ease, its a bit odd really ,im almost playing what im thinking i want to play (sound wise not intervalically) but not always.

Am i in a different mode from time to time ? probably ,which one ? idk. But my playing has improved and im happy. Now playing in a band, maybe thats when it becomes more of an issue im not sure.

frankus · November 2013

JAYJO said:

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

It's not a case of needing to know, the dorian has a sense of gravitas without being as maudlin as the aeolian... in mainstream music the modes are cues to the emotional weight of a phrase.

People don't need to know if it's dorian, aeolian or phrygian but the note selection will convey a feeling - maybe serious, or sad or distraught or maybe a subtle mix of all of those.

Music is a language, it communicates emotions, elements of music are used in every language - babies cry at different pitches to indicate different needs - same shit simply expressed in a scale - we've an interuptive cadence, we've disonnance and consonance - public speakers use all the time to get the audience to listen to keywords.

If you don't need to convey a feeling it doesn't matter what notes you play, what speed or dynamics.

I am split - patterns are definitely a good way to navigate the fretboard - but equally they're a poor way to originate.

ThePrettyDamned · November 2013

I mostly don't bother with modal stuff (although phrygian naturally features as my music is fairly heavy and that flat second seems to feature a fair bit in the riff). However, I have found a few things that are amazing as getting a 'pro' sound.

1. Learn the full, standard minor scale as well as the pentatonic. You'll mostly use the pentatonic (with all the usual caveats of melody and stuff).

2. semitone bends. In e minor, for example, bend from the f sharp to a g or from the c to b. Also, these work in reverse - pre bend up to a c of g, then slowly (slower the better) release to the target pentatonic note to land on it on the beat. It's a very simple thing to do, but I find that bending from a B to a C at the beginning of a phrase evokes a really sweet sound. Tone bends don't have this effect as both notes are in the pentatonic.

3. Space. Don't think about using a mode to connect loads of notes - this isn't shred or jazz (god knows how I dislike jazz... Most of it just sounds wrong to my overconditioned ears!). Instead, use an effect, such as delay or reverb to help make it sound less 'empty' when practicing (might matter less in a band scenario, but can work then, too!) and after a short phrase, or even a long one (I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know...etc makes for something you can use on the guitar, and occasionally throw in another note), leave a pause. A long phrase is good for playing very gentle, and really digging in for a screaming 'Ain't no sunshine' line. Bend up to that 'shine' syllable for full vocal effect?

viz · November 2013

frankus said:

JAYJO said:

Does anyone need to know whether its Dorian or not.? idk.

It's not a case of needing to know, the dorian has a sense of gravitas without being as maudlin as the aeolian... in mainstream music the modes are cues to the emotional weight of a phrase.

People don't need to know if it's dorian, aeolian or phrygian but the note selection will convey a feeling - maybe serious, or sad or distraught or maybe a subtle mix of all of those.

Music is a language, it communicates emotions, elements of music are used in every language - babies cry at different pitches to indicate different needs - same shit simply expressed in a scale - we've an interuptive cadence, we've disonnance and consonance - public speakers use all the time to get the audience to listen to keywords.

If you don't need to convey a feeling it doesn't matter what notes you play, what speed or dynamics.

I am split - patterns are definitely a good way to navigate the fretboard - but equally they're a poor way to originate.

wonderfully put as always frankus. By the way all, the minor 3rd, sharp 6 and matural 7 could also be the awesome 2nd mode of the melodic minor scale, the sweet dorian b2, or "phrygian-dorian", which sounds lovely.

frankus · November 2013

viz said:

wonderfully put as always frankus. By the way all, the minor 3rd, sharp 6 and matural 7 could also be the awesome 2nd mode of the melodic minor scale, the sweet dorian b2, or "phrygian-dorian", which sounds lovely.

Yes, but cultural norms mean that's not the first thing people expect. This is what solo and improvisation is about for me - it's about finding new and interesting routes through a piece of music... the significance of the b9 will change over the next chord and may become consonant.

For me music is all about timing. We can play a b9 any time in any piece of music. We have chromaticism all the time, it's just that as people we might need to view it through the filter of modes and scales to keep all that information in our heads.

viz · November 2013

Yep.

frankus · November 2013

Only thing I'd refine about that is "we can play a b9 in any bar of a piece of music - there are beats we would prefer not to play it on

"

viz · November 2013

Not me, I'll put it anywhere and anywhen!

frankus · November 2013

heh my biggest sin is forgetting I'm not practising and thinking "does a b9 go here... how about here? ... or here?" at some stage on the rare occassions I play live I see an audience member grimace and think - ah yeah back to it.

Sambostar · November 2013

What worked for me at first is learning pentatonics in all positions up the neck. I mean so you can play them blind. Just through doing that you'll introduce different tones and freaky things from the position you're in. Then I figured I should do the same for scales, up and down the strings and in any position, that opened it up a bit. It also made learning the seven modes easy too.

Also using octaves and playing in octaves helped, repeating or modifying stuff over three or four octaves and this can be runs of notes that sound good to you, kind of like making up your own scales and patterns I guess. Better than staying in a single postion anyway.

After that, it really comes down to your ear, how you want things to sound, or how you interpret them and chords really help identify the notes.

Often, just sitting down and slowly seeing what notes sound good is not a bad way to go, rather tha shredding or belting out the blues. Then you can repeat over the octaves and learning them up the neck shouldn't take a few minutes as you know the scales for reference, you can use wide intervals and semi tone bends for a freakier sound.

I like the semi tone bends too Demartini-esque notes pinched from Lynch and wide single string intervals really identify his 80's style for example and with a few choice notes you can instantly sound like him.

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Help to break away from pure pentatonics

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