Help to break away from pure pentatonics

dhaywood67 · October 2013

Hi, I've been playing for countless years now but have never pushed myself to get out from the comfort zone of lead work in pentatonics. Now the band I'm in is finally starting to gig a bit more regularly I'd like to develop a bit more interesting solos for the couple of tracks that are my responsibility. Basically EVERYTHING I solo over is done in pentatonics ONLY! Yes, occasionally I manage to add an odd note outside that but on the whole it's just pentatonic.

The two tracks involved are 'In a broken dream' and 'Ain't no sunshine' both of which allow me to play solos in Am pent, but I'll be honest it's starting to bore me a little sticking to pents all the time. What other options are open to me? I know it's not a case of using lots of different notes and more how you use those notes. That's one of the good things that being restricted to a pent scale has taught me.

Any suggestions will be gratefully tried,
Cheers.

viz · October 2013

Ain't no sunshine has a natural 2nd so either Aeolian or Dorian scales, depending on whether you like the sound of the natural or #6th. Try both.

I personally think the Dorian scale would sound nice there. Just try playing the tune of "what shall we do with a drunken sailor" over it and see how it tastes to you. If you lean heavily on that raised 6th you will get a nice juicy acidic flavour. But that's just *adding* a note to the pentatonic (which has 1,3,4,5,7 and 8).

You could also, in combination with that #6, *alter* one of the notes of the pentatonic, for example the 4th note, - for extra juice try raising it a semitone (augmenting it), then you'd have the 4th mode of the harmonic scale, called the Ukrainian Dorian. Mmmm delicious!

Maybe the next alteration would be to add to that Ukrainian Dorian a sharp 7 instead of a natural 7. That would be the 4th mode of the harmonic major, which is a combination of the Hungarian Gypsy scale and the Lydian scale. Very nice, especially again if you squeeze and emphasize those augmented 4ths and raised 6ths and 7ths.

Then you could also really break the mould; return to the original pentatonic and introduce a flattened 2. That would fit Phrygian or Dorian flat 2 (the 2nd mode of melodic minor).

If you introduce a 6th note and it's natural (ie flattened), it would be Phrygian. If you introduce a sharpened 6th, it would be Dorian flat 2. Both would be cool.

Then, along with that flat 2, you could also raise the 3rd, even though that contradicts that fact that the band's playing in pentatonic minor. Oooo that would give it some flavour! You could do that either with a sharpened 6th (the 6th mode of the harmonic Major scale, the "mixolydian flat 2") or with a natural 6th (the 5th mode of the harmonic Minor scale, the rather nice "Freygish", or "Phrygian dominant", or "Phrygian major" scale).

Here are all the above scales in order:

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/scalesfordhaywood_zps35ca7c15.jpg

frankus · October 2013

First things first - rhythm is your best friend. Ain't No Sunshine - try fewer notes and try using the melody as your reference point, exploit the fact that your listeners have brains too.

If you get two verses for your solo, take your time and build up tension. When the lyrics would have said "Ain't no ..... Sunshine" play with space... spaces are like 0s after a number.

then wham! they've been waiting for that note, if it's the wrong note play it again, slide it up a fret or slide it down a fret - more space more impact.

The best solos have build-up, in the best bands the other musicians support that and create it for the other players but you can do it yourself.

If you want to play more and more notes toward the end think about playing the chord progressions think about following it different fingerings of the chords picked out - not all the notes played find odd sequences to play them.. find other chords to fill in between and pick them out...

Practise that that a bit and have a few licks to chuck in at certain points if mixing it isn't working that time.

Pentatonics broken out of musicality retained. HTH,.

viz · October 2013

Whoops, I forgot about musicality, phrasing, rhythm, tension and release! Yes, what he said.

Jalapeno · October 2013

Fill in the chromatic notes of the pentatonic, by ear.

Also, try moving the shape up 2 frets (Dom7 pentatonic), or down 3 frets (Maj7 Pentatonic) (c) Clarky

viz · October 2013

Yes, so if you're playing in Am, moving it up 2 frets (so it looks like you're playing B pentatonic) gives it a sweet Dorian flavour because it introduces the raised 6th, and sounds very beautiful.

stuglue · October 2013

You can exploit the pentatonic even more. A 1,4,5 progression in A minor is Amin, Dmin,Emin so you could try playing D minor or E minor pentatonic rather than just Amin.

Don't forget though that voice leading is really important so semi tonal between chords is key to confident chord change playing.

Remember the pentatonic scale is just a minor 7th arpeggio with an added fourth.

dhaywood67 · October 2013

Thanks everyone. Plenty to go at there. Although not sure if I understand it all frankus lol. I should get time to try a few of these tomorrow night before Thursdays rehearsal and I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks

JayGee · October 2013

I am SO going to steal some of this stuff if ANS pops up in tonights jam...

Regarding the phrasing thing, I find that trying to echo what YOUR vocalist is doing on THIS particular occasion (and on something like ANS there's a lot of scope for variation) is a good way to go - if you can lure them into an ad-libbed "call and response" thang then so much the better as that's huge fun for you, for them, and for the audience, the interplay between two people can REALLY build tension, and it can make a few stale old pentatonic licks go further and sound fresher than you'd ever imagine...

close2u · October 2013

the dorian suggestion is a good one ... some learning vids for you here:

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BL-028-DorianApproch.php

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/BL-029-DorianLicks.php

midiglitch · October 2013

I've just realised that what I meant to post here, I posted in another thread. I had multiple windows open and was watching a video and obviously got confufled. My comment was:

A couple more themes you could explore:

1. Targeting chord tones.

2. Take the appropriate scale and drop some notes so you restrict yourself to fewer notes, not more! Eg you could go aeolian and drop the 3rd and 7th, leaving you 1,2,4,5,b6. All the notes of the scale will still "fit" but the inherent scale sound will be different.

Idk if this will get you where you want to be, but hopefully you'll enjoy the journey!

Apologies to those who already read that. Anyway....as you were!

viz · October 2013

I think the true traditional English breakfast should not contain baked beans, however delicious and nutritious they are, because strictly speaking they are not borne from the English farm, which is the source of the English breakfast.

octatonic · October 2013

Start targeting chord tones and use chromatic ideas.

Think melody- if you can't hum it, don't play it.

Personally I've had enough dorian wank to last me a life-time.

monquixote · October 2013

octatonic said:
Personally I've had enough dorian wank to last me a life-time.

Oy! That's my whole soloing repertoire you are dissing there!

I would suggest starting with Octs hated Dorian. It's only two notes different from minor pent and opens up lots of nice ideas. Plus if you do it three notes per string you get lots of nice easy triplet stuff.

Also when you are going between two pentatonic notes you can always hit any between as long as you aren't stopping on them and it will sound a bit chromatic and jazzy.

You can also start from a fret above or below any pentatonic note and slide into the pentatonic note and it generally works

If I'm stuck with a track like Ain't no Sunshine. I'd start out by just playing the melody and then work out where I could put some nice bends ("Sunshine" and "gone" seems obvious)

Then I'd see if I could fit any twiddly bits between the melody and then go into something a bit more elaborate and further from the melody as it progresses.

octatonic · October 2013

I don't hate dorian mode when used well, but it often is 100% of a guitarists repertoire and that gets real old, real quick. :-)

monquixote · October 2013

octatonic said:

I don't hate dorian mode when used well, but it often is 100% of a guitarists repertoire and that gets real old, real quick. :-)

That's me fucked then.

octatonic · October 2013

monquixote said:

octatonic said:

I don't hate dorian mode when used well, but it often is 100% of a guitarists repertoire and that gets real old, real quick. :-)

That's me fucked then.

LOL.

Work on it.

monquixote · October 2013

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

octatonic said:

I don't hate dorian mode when used well, but it often is 100% of a guitarists repertoire and that gets real old, real quick. :-)

That's me fucked then.

LOL.

Work on it.

I'm being a bit disingenuous.

I tend to use it as the basis for a lot of the stuff I play, but I also tend to chromatic it up quite a bit and I'm partial to a bit of the old bebop minor now and again.

I'd like to mix it up a bit more, but because I play in a Funk/R&B band a lot of the stuff I play tends to be over fairly static dominant and minor 7 chords so dorian/mixolydian is often the easy option.

Any hints gladly accepted.

octatonic · October 2013

monquixote said:

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

octatonic said:

I don't hate dorian mode when used well, but it often is 100% of a guitarists repertoire and that gets real old, real quick. :-)

That's me fucked then.

LOL.

Work on it.

I'm being a bit disingenuous.
I tend to use it as the basis for a lot of the stuff I play, but I also tend to chromatic it up quite a bit and I'm partial to a bit of the old bebop minor now and again.

I'd like to mix it up a bit more, but because I play in a Funk/R&B band a lot of the stuff I play tends to be over fairly static dominant and minor 7 chords so dorian/mixolydian is often the easy option.
Any hints gladly accepted.

It all comes down to transcription IMHO.

Find a few players an obsessively transcribe their music.

Definitely 'a few' rather than 'one' and it works better if they are different styles of players.

JAYJO · October 2013

Play your Am pent on top ie 123 strings, mix with A aeolian, A dorian, A phrygian. Mix it up a bit. Use all 5 shapes.

stuglue · October 2013

You can get some really out there sounds by using pentatonic scales a tritone apart.

Here's what I mean

Take a dominant chord (chord V, in C its G7). The obvious pentatonic is G. But try mixing it up by playing major pentatonic a tritone interval away from G(in this case Db). It's really effective, and easy to do as every note of the Db pentatonic is a tritone interval away from the notes of G pentatonic so if you want to get outside try playing a b5th above or below ant of the notes of G pentatonic.

G Pentatonic

G,A,B,D,E

Db pentatonic

Db,Eb,F,Ab,Bb

All the Db pentatonic notes are a flat fifth away from the notes of G pentatonic.

The Db pentatonic gives you all the altered dominant notes over G7

benvall · October 2013

There is a youtube video by Pete Thorn I think it is called adding colour and tone 5 min lessons (something like that). I'm at work with no speakers on my PC so I can't check it is the correct one. It's worth a watch.

Blueingreen · October 2013

The modes can be viewed as a pentatonic with two new notes added in. Imagine you are playing in A and using the minor pentatonic, standard 5th position pattern, top 4 strings. So you have A,C,D,E,G. So play on top of a two chord vamp, Am and Dm (or Am7 and Dm7). You will find that you can add in B and F, both sound right and give you some new flavours. You're still using your basic pentatonic pattern, you're just adding in two new notes.

Change your two chord vamp to Am (or Am7)/D7. Again your standard pentatonic will work fine but now the two extra notes that sound consonant are B and F sharp.

Just busk those patterns against those chords. Give it several hours, until you are playing stuff that sounds good to your ear.

Once you've done that you're on top of by far the two most common modes. Obviously you will want to take them into different positions and different keys, but you can always begin with a standard pentatonic pattern and add a couple of notes. You'll also come to realise that the two patterns are actually the same, just with a different implied starting point, which helps with fingerings. And eventually the same fingering patterns will work for all the other modes of the major scale.

What you will also find is that in most places a pentatonic works, especially outside of a blues, one of these patterns will work also.

jpfamps · October 2013

My view on this is broadly in line with Octatonic; if you are not careful you can end up producing some very generic and quite boring to listen to scale-based soloing.

In fact I can here this going on at the club over the road from my workshop as I write this.

I've always thought that many guitarist's obsession with modes puzzling. Very little rock/ pop (or even jazz) music is actually modal. None of the horn players I play with (and these are all schooled musicians, mainly jazzers and often teachers as well), consider knowledge of modes that crucial.

Regardless, I tend to think of the pentatonic scales as the framework around which you can introduce the other notes.

I also like know how these notes relate harmonically to the underlying chords. I found this helps to allow me to learn what the other notes bring to my playing.

In the past I have often added the extra notes one at a time to my lead playing, which reduces the amount of sonic information you need to assimilate.

So for example take Ain't No Sunshine (in Amin), then try adding a B natural to the Am pentatonic. This is the 2nd/9th of Am, the 5th of Eminor and the Major 6th of Dm.

Jam with this and find out how this extra note works over the progress.

You can do this with all the other notes. Obviously some of them will be hideous (eg C# probably won't sound great unless used as a passing note), but you should quickly find out the notes you prefer the sound of.

Personnally on Ain't No Sunshine I tend embelish the Amin pentatonic with the 2nd/9th (B), and the b5 (Eb) to the minor pentatonic.

The key (at least for me) is to try to play lines that I like the sound of (otherwise what's the point in playing!).

jpfamps · October 2013

I should add, I don't the sound of F# in single lines when playing Ain't No Sunshine, so I am probably not a Dorian noodler!

ToneControl · October 2013

I haven't studied the theory above, I will start now though,
but... a good example "by ear" is these 2 contrasting versions - Bill Withers and Eva Cassidy. The second has a different mood and feels a bit harmonic minor in places at the end of the main phrase. Sorry, I don't have the vocabulary to say what is happening, but it certainly gets away from plain pentatonic

viz · October 2013

Yes. Bill's is strictly Aeolian - natural minor - with minor chords with minor 7ths throughout.

Eva's (which is transposed to C minor) has, for its last chord before returning to the C root, a G with a strongly sounding major 3rd and minor 6th, which in the key of C minor are the major 7tha and minor 3rd, 2 of the most important notes in C harmonic minor.

ToneControl · October 2013

thanks for that, I've been avoiding theory for years, I will start trying to learn more now

mike257 · November 2013

Tons of interesting stuff in here, I'll have to try some. I'm very much with Octatonic on this though:

octatonic;46560" said:
Start targeting chord tones and use chromatic ideas.Think melody- if you can't hum it, don't play it

My favourite bits of lead guitar playing are always the ones with a singable melody, not ones with a technical leaning.

AndyJP · November 2013

I quite like playing Pentatonics with some additional notes from the modes to spice it up. For example putting a major sixth into a minor pentatonic to give a Dorian flavour without screaming "I'm playing Dorian now!". The infinite guitar website has some good articles in this. Over some chord progressions mixing major and minor Pentatonics works really well too. that's my 2p....

Kebabkid · November 2013

What Octatonic said ^ ^ ^ "being able to sing it/being melodic.
Here's my 2 drachma's worth - have a listen to players like Robben Ford and Larry Carlton for adding interesting and different notes to lines whilst still retaining melody. Slow, wide/over bends, slurs into notes also add something

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Help to break away from pure pentatonics

Comments