Diminished Scales ? (Head Hurts) !

Bellycaster · September 2013

Would much appreciate some help with this please.

I've been delving into more theory this week and I've reached saturation point (not Joe Saturation, I might add).

I was looking for a scale that matched a Half Dim Chord (m7 b5) and found that Lydian Dominant contains those intervals. Don't ask why I do this to myself, I just like theory knowledge for knowledge sake, it interests me and it's probably for further down the road but I can't help myself.

I then looked at the other Dim Chords

Dim 1 - b3 - b5

Dim 7 1 - b3 - b5 - bb7

I came completely undone in trying to understand the Diminished Scale and whether both the Dim and Dim 7 fitted the scale. It was like the guitar equivalent of Snow Blindness.

I know I seem to have an obsession with scale patterns and half the time a couple of notes will suffice over a chord if it's going to change soon, but it seems to create "maps" for me.

As for Augmented Chords, I think I surmised that the Natural Minor scale contains those intervals. 1 - 3 - #5 (6)?

I've no probs playing the chords I can find those easy enough, it's just finding little patterns to play over them.

I'm OK with having something to use over the types of 7, 9, 11 and 13 chords, just puzzled a bit with the others.

If your head is now hurting, I'm not surprised.

Thanks for any help.

;-)

Phil_aka_Pip · September 2013

The Locrian scale matches the half diminished chord. I'm not sure about the Lydian dominant because the half diminished chord contains a b3 whereas the Lydian scale contains a major third.

The 7th mode of the Harmonic minor scale matches the diminished 7th chord.

I don't think the Natural minor (R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7) matches the Augmented chord because although you can rewrite a #5 as a b6, the scale contains a minor 3rd and the chord contains a major 3rd. You probably get the Augmented chord from another mode of the harmonic minor scale but ATM I can't remember which one it is. Taking the HM modes and working it out is left as an exercise to the reader

Jalapeno · September 2013

Diminished scale - every tone is potentially a root - start wherever you like and that is the root. Sprinkle liberally on Dom7 chords and sound like a cool cat

Bellycaster · September 2013

@Phil_aka_Pip

Thanks , that is a glaring error by me. I should have spotted that re the Minor and Aug M3 and m3rd's issue and the Lydian Dom.

Locrian makes sense now for m7b5 as it's the last chord in the diatonic sequence before the octave. I'll have to stop thinking of the Parent Maj Scale and start remembering to think of the mode as the new root.

Do you think there it's daft to want to try and expand theory knowledge to stuff I might not use a lot?

@Jalapeno

Thanks, I understand that concept with the Dim7 Chords all being potential roots. I just couldn't find a definitive scale diagram, I may not have looked far as my head had almost gone at the time.

Phil_aka_Pip · September 2013

@Bellycaster no its NOT daft, and you'll probably find a use for it. Until then, the exercise of getting your fingers to do something different will be good for you

frankus · September 2013

Here's the Wayne Krantz approach - play the chord on a looper/ tape recorder - now jam over the f*cker and take notes of the notes that sound good/better - put the notes together in order from the root note of the chord - that's your "function" or a selection of notes you like hearing (a far more worthy concept).

In this way you learn music and to improvise. Frequently revisit it as your tastes will change.

Here is the Pat Martino approach - learn the diminished chords and scales all over the neck - they're symetrical so more reuseable - learn each voicings implementations (repeated every over tone) and learn to sharpen and flatten stuff to make all the other chords.

Here is the Joe Pass approach - it's a minor chord with a major 6th - play as if you were playing over a II chord (so dorian mode) but avoid the 5th until it resolves..

Here's the Jimmy Bruno approach - shut the f*** up and figure out the notes that sound good - call it a scale and I'll come over there and mess you up - I ain't f***ing around - they're note choices and don't ever let me hear you callin' it a scale.

The Emily Remler approach is either use it with the melodic minor a fifth above the chord root or a semitone below the chord root, depending on whether it's followed by a major chord or not.

My take on it is this... Miles says "play what noone else is playing" so in the case of a disonnant chord - there's a need for playing consonant sounds, so the Joe Pass approach is a goodun.

Bellycaster · September 2013

@frankus

That one deserves a Lol and a Wiz but it would only let me choose one.

Good advice.

Ta!

octatonic · September 2013

Locrian is *mostly useless* imho.

I use diminished scale ideas (often arpeggios) off the major 3rd of a dominant chord.

For instance; G7: GBDF

B diminished 7th arpeggio: B D F Ab

As you can see, 3 of the notes to the B dim7 arpeggio are part of the G7 chord.

The Ab is the b9.

Megii · September 2013

The 6th mode of the melodic minor scale (also known as the "Jazz Minor") is good for soloing over minor 7 flat 5 type chords.

Bellycaster · September 2013

Thanks @octatonic, now realising what your username means ;-)

Cheers @Megii

octatonic · September 2013

Bellycaster said:

Thanks @octatonic, now realising what your username means ;-)

FINALLY!

Barney · September 2013

Bellycaster;2939" said:
I've no probs playing the chords I can find those easy enough, it's just finding little patterns to play over them)

Your most of the way there then I think ....try playing the chords and just break them into individual notes And patterns you like ...however a chord moves and sounds so will the notes of the chord...this applies to any chord or progression ...just play the chords then arpegiate it...that's why I always think a good foundation of chords is the first port of call ..so when you look at the chords and chord movements you can just the notes out of the chords..

Jalapeno · September 2013

IMHO the Dim scale sounds quite atonal and sterile. and downright wrong (over Dom7 chords). It needs to be spiced up with chromatic/outside (or Dom7 arpeggio) notes to sound interesting. It demands a good resolution to a 3/7/root to not sound like the "wrong notes"

stuglue · September 2013

As regards the m7b5 chord, try adding a note to it a major third below the root, hey Presto you've got yourself a dominant 9th chord, so that B,D,F,A chord becomes G,B,D,F,A so the two are interchangeable in that they share the same qualities.

The diminished scale is based around minor third intervals and the symmetrical nature is how it's created, which is Half Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step etc you'll find its full of tritone intervals hence the symmetry (a tritone shape is the only interval aside from an octave that shape wise is the same whether you play it from the root or invert it and play it from the b5th), it still retains the same shape.

as for augmented you'll find that chord comes from the melodic minor scale

viz · September 2013

Just for reference, here are all the octatonic scales with minor 3rd as the maximum note separation. You will find all the dims in there somewhere! http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/MusicalmodesbyViz6_zps15fcbf56.jpg

stuglue · September 2013

Whoa, what's this, carpet samples?

Bellycaster · September 2013

viz;44537" said:
Just for reference, here are all the octatonic scales with minor 3rd as the maximum note separation. You will find all the dims in there somewhere!

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/MusicalmodesbyViz6_zps15fcbf56.jpg

Cheers @viz

I think I just went blind

viz · September 2013

I know what you mean, I also find it somewhat stimulating.

Phil_aka_Pip · September 2013

Just looked it up: you get the Augmented 7th chord from harmonising the 3rd degree of the harmonic minor scale, and also from the same degree of the melodic minor scale

frankus · September 2013

As someone who plays Jazz that has a fair few interesting chords often used in the same bar - I am a bit indifferent to modes - they cannot be extemporised quick enough to be of use in anything but modal jazz. What's going to sound okay over a bar (if I've never seen it before) is the chord tones of the two chords - if there are duplicates then that means I've a degree of liberty to explore the missing information.

G7 -> A7 => G B D F -> A C# E G all told ( G A B C# D E F ) - I knew 2 dominants a tone apart = melodic minor mode but rather than think of that utterly redundant name (why learn hundreds?) - I think of the contents .. just playing the notes of the second dominant chord over the first gives a nice sound .. that'll become more familiar over the second chord -- repetition, resolution -- woo scary it'd sound.. planned, anticipated.

I think there is far more worth to be found in small tactics than there is boiling the ocean to find strategies - you'll find billions of strategies and names for them and by the time you've finished filing them you'll have arthritis and be deaf

There are only ever 12 notes, there are only really 3 types of chord: major minor and dominant - it's far far easier to learn the sounds of those 12 notes over those 3 types of chord - 36 combinations - than it is to learn exactly the same thing in bunches of eight (7,6 or 5) notes remembering it's thing (mode) of another thing (scale).

When you're playing over an unfamiliar piece of music sounds are your friends - not names. With a name you pick it... then scratch around trying to locate the root note then you can start playing the patter for that name... in jazz that's too late the music has moved so the tactics for finding a note have to be more immediate. I feel they're more honset and the results are more musical.

midiglitch · September 2013

Wise words Frankus. Very wise words

Barney · September 2013

frankus said:

As someone who plays Jazz that has a fair few interesting chords often used in the same bar - I am a bit indifferent to modes - they cannot be extemporised quick enough to be of use in anything but modal jazz. What's going to sound okay over a bar (if I've never seen it before) is the chord tones of the two chords - if there are duplicates then that means I've a degree of liberty to explore the missing information.

G7 -> A7 => G B D F -> A C# E G all told ( G A B C# D E F ) - I knew 2 dominants a tone apart = melodic minor mode but rather than think of that utterly redundant name (why learn hundreds?) - I think of the contents .. just playing the notes of the second dominant chord over the first gives a nice sound .. that'll become more familiar over the second chord -- repetition, resolution -- woo scary it'd sound.. planned, anticipated.

I think there is far more worth to be found in small tactics than there is boiling the ocean to find strategies - you'll find billions of strategies and names for them and by the time you've finished filing them you'll have arthritis and be deaf

There are only ever 12 notes, there are only really 3 types of chord: major minor and dominant - it's far far easier to learn the sounds of those 12 notes over those 3 types of chord - 36 combinations - than it is to learn exactly the same thing in bunches of eight (7,6 or 5) notes remembering it's thing (mode) of another thing (scale).

When you're playing over an unfamiliar piece of music sounds are your friends - not names. With a name you pick it... then scratch around trying to locate the root note then you can start playing the patter for that name... in jazz that's too late the music has moved so the tactics for finding a note have to be more immediate. I feel they're more honset and the results are more musical.

so very true......we can sometimes look to deeply into things like theory and not the actual sounds or even chord tones..i think modes have there use but are far from the be all and end all....in fact i would put them really low down the list...

viz · September 2013

Modes are just tags, names to give to certain scalar selections. Music comes first, them modes are useful for naming the notes used. Like any other name. Saucepan for example. The primary thing is to boil some potatoes. The secondary thing is to name the metal container a saucepan. I myself happen to feel pretty comfortable playing along to many styles. Naming the modes was a missing jigsaw piece for me, so I've recently become excited by them. But I agree with frankus that you shouldn't use them to try and become musical. That would be like trying to learn a language from a book.

Bellycaster · September 2013

@frankus

Good summary of what really matters there and I'm impressed how you can play off the bat like that. I'm guessing my weakness is being stuck in the Pattern regime rather than the notes jumping into my head like you seem to manage.

When you mentioned to the two Dom7 (A7 & G7) chords and ammased the notes of the two chords ( G A B C# D E F ) = Melodic Minor Mode, I was wondering why I didn't come up with G Melodic Minor from those notes, you actually might not have meant that, sorry if I got mixed up with that.

I was also a bit puzzled by what you meant by only 3 types of chords though (Maj, Min, Dom) ? I'm wondering why you omitted the Dim and Dim7 and Aug etc?

I did read through twice but was still a bit confused.

@viz and frankus

I found this guy and he teaches you the 1-3-4 1-2-4 1-3-4 1-2-4 1-3-4 1-2-4 Pattern. He also shows how to incorporate in into the Min Pent to get those "Outside" notes

He does a nifty demo at 11:14 and it's harder than it looks if you stuck in the Min Pent or Maj Scale trench like me. I did come up with some laughable bits, obviously I'm gonna have to find little phrases that have the right amount of tension and resolve.

Not questioning your collective knowledge here it's just hard when someones a few pages ahead, if you get me?

Cheers guys

frankus · October 2013

I think any one pattern can have millions of uses, so finding one that works for you and using it in all ways is a pretty sensible thing to do. Any pentatonic pattern can be played over any chord and the results are worth remembering

Bellycaster said:
When you mentioned to the two Dom7 (A7 & G7) chords and ammased the notes of the two chords ( G A B C# D E F ) = Melodic Minor Mode, I was wondering why I didn't come up with G Melodic Minor from those notes, you actually might not have meant that, sorry if I got mixed up with that.

It's a mode of the melodic minor, I didn't want to bore anyone or otherwise put anyone off by going into any more detail. If it's your thing, it's G lydian dominant... or A mixolydian b6 depending on which chord you're playing over (which kinda shows how much you should really care about it ;^)

Bellycaster said:
I was also a bit puzzled by what you meant by only 3 types of chords though (Maj, Min, Dom) ? I'm wondering why you omitted the Dim and Dim7 and Aug etc?

There are three types of chord, according to Joe Pass, I could explain it to you, but that'd be spoon feeding - which isn't really going to help you grok the concept, you'd need to go out and find it on the internet and give it a try before it'd even begin to make sense... if I explained it, it might turn into a intellectual debate and it's far more interesting a concept than that medium would do justice to

Jalapeno · October 2013

re:3 Chords - think basic triads, and Aug, Dim etc fit into the Maj/Min/Dom trio

viz · October 2013

@bellycaster that vid was nice, thanks

Jalapeno · October 2013

Bellycaster said:

He does a nifty demo at 11:14 and it's harder than it looks if you stuck in the Min Pent or Maj Scale trench like me.

That is very cool ! B-)

midiglitch · October 2013

A couple more themes you could explore:

1. Targeting chord tones.

2. Take the appropriate scale and drop some notes so you restrict yourself to fewer notes, not more! Eg you could go aeolian and drop the 3rd and 7th, leaving you 1,2,4,5,b6. All the notes of the scale will still "fit" but the inherent scale sound will be different.

Idk if this will get you where you want to be, but hopefully you'll enjoy the journey!

Bellycaster · October 2013

@frankus

Thanks for clearing those things up.

I'm hoping, in the long run, to adopt the same methods as yourself. It's just that on the learning curve, I think it makes me feel more assured and comfortable to be able to "name" something.

I'll keep plodding on

Bellycaster · October 2013

Cheers @viz and @Jalapeno

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