The UFO Phenomenon as a Liminal Object

equalsql · October 2023

Fascinating idea.
I've thought that for a long time that the explanation for UFOs is much deeper than 'simple' aliens. The world is a far stranger place than we can begin to imagine.
This concept certainly seems to align more with my feelings on the subject.

Brio · October 2023

Oooh! Liminal. Never heard that before. Limen I knew but not that.
Thanks for a word I now have to shoehorn into every conversation for a week.
:-)

thecolourbox · October 2023

Saved that to my Watch later list, sounds interesting so thanks for sharing.

I've a feeling this'll be me later on sat at my desk

Image: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/97/ac/c2/97acc2d1848b98468277cdb2e35a47c6.jpg

Shrews · October 2023

There's another world out there

Sassafras · October 2023

Amazing the twaddle youtube throws up.
Sounds reasonable and logical but is a load of speculative bollocks.

thecolourbox · October 2023

Sassafras said:

Amazing the twaddle youtube throws up.
Sounds reasonable and logical but is a load of speculative bollocks.

I love reading and listening to stuff like that though, anything alien, supernatural, basically X Files stuff, precisely because of its speculatively bollocks nature - there's too much cold hard and depressing truth out there at the moment that I can't do anything about, but it affects me so getting away from that and reading about ghost orbs at Aston Hall or watching Derek Acorah having a seizure in Stratford Upon Avon is just the antidote. I'm not saying i particularly believe any of it by the way, it's just less depressing than reading about poverty, middle east apartheid and immigrants dying in the channel

Funkfingers · October 2023

thecolourbox said:
Derek Acorah

That fraud?

thecolourbox · October 2023

Funkfingers said:

thecolourbox said:
Derek Acorah

That fraud?

Yes that's the guy. I have an apple slicer named after him.

He's returning for his own Christmas special this year I believe

Philly_Q · October 2023

thecolourbox said:

Funkfingers said:

thecolourbox said:
Derek Acorah

That fraud?

Yes that's the guy. I have an apple slicer named after him.

He's returning for his own Christmas special this year I believe

He'll be in Matalan now, getting his outfits together for the show.

thecolourbox · October 2023

Philly_Q said:

thecolourbox said:

Funkfingers said:

thecolourbox said:
Derek Acorah

That fraud?

Yes that's the guy. I have an apple slicer named after him.

He's returning for his own Christmas special this year I believe

He'll be in Matalan now, getting his outfits together for the show.

Probably why he was able to pick up so much static electric interference during his searches

DefaultM · October 2023

thecolourbox said:

Funkfingers said:

thecolourbox said:
Derek Acorah

That fraud?

Yes that's the guy. I have an apple slicer named after him.

He's returning for his own Christmas special this year I believe

Mary loves Dick.

octatonic · October 2023

equalsql said:

Fascinating idea.
I've thought that for a long time that the explanation for UFOs is much deeper than 'simple' aliens. The world is a far stranger place than we can begin to imagine.
This concept certainly seems to align more with my feelings on the subject.

So, people can think or believe anything they want.
I'm not against that.

I've watched the video.
Here is what I think:

Here is an excerpt of the video:

"... using only their minds it seems likely that consciousness is a kind of polymorphic interface where different species or consciousnesses for want of a better word are able to access and communicate through psychic function imagine being exposed to something that is affecting you in both ways simultaneously would presumably affect you in unexpected ways at this point I'd like to reference a paper that's written by jacques ballet and earth texts Eric Davis the paper describes the sixth layers of UAP analysis and should be read by anyone interested in the subject as its different ways that people can be affected by the UFO phenomenon of particular interest and irrelevant to this article is the section titled layer 5 which is present here it's pretty easy to understand that an object that can affect a person mentally and physically could cause them to have a crisis leading them to change their very fundamental belief structures in a significant and profound way would also likely open their minds to wider and more complex realities allowing them to have unusual visions approximating some level of psychic function purely through exposure to something unknown and not previously comprehended these objects..."

This is just word salad.
There is no evidence, no critical thinking on display.
It is simply presenting a world view, a presupposed conclusion that the author seeks to confirm and then attempts to without being clear or concise. It is the opposite of the scientific method.

I've encountered a number of people like this over the years.
People who bang on about being 'open minded' which looks to me like 'believing things without evidence.'

Again, people can think or believe anything they want.
But I don't take this seriously.

It is like religion.
I don't need to analyse religious texts in the search for God.
Call me when you have his telephone number.

All sorts of things that we do not currently have evidence of. might end up being true.
I am not saying that I think we know everything.
We do not.

But this is why the scientific method is so important, because otherwise anyone can say anything and expect to be taken seriously.
Evidence destroys bullshit suppositions and fanciful storytelling dressed up as 'a theory'.

Hard pass.

I do like the idea of liminal objects/spaces though- as a concept.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

Thats an interesting video @equalsql - thanks for sharing. The idea of liminal spaces has been gaining traction recently. The backrooms being an example of the concept (rather than an actual physical example).....

I think the principal concept here isn't a particularly contentious one. We know that our senses have boundaries and limitations which, as a result, mean that there are sights, sounds, colours and smells we don't capture but are no less real despite our inability to receive them. It's not a great stretch from there to consider the possibility that other 'lifeforms' or 'intelligences' that could be defined as 'alien' would be of a nature beyond our comprehension or capacity to behold or even conceive.

I understand that there is a lot we can't explain - for example, particles (I think on the quantum level) that behave differently depending on whether they are being observed or not. It's a fascinating feature which may have hugely significant implications about the nature of consciousness or could equally be a simple but wondrous quirk.

The idea that nothing can be accepted as fact until it can be explained by science saddens me. I actually believe that faith, in its many forms, is an essential component of human happiness. In that context I'd define faith as being a willingness to commit to, believe in or simply accept the possibility that your own experience is limited and there are things of value, greater things, beyond it - things that some people would call or attribute to god.

It would of course be fascinating to fast forward a thousand years to see the evolution that will take place - there need be few limits on your imaginings if we consider that many of the beliefs commonly held 1000 years ago were evidently absurd.

Personally I think there is a lot to be understood about the collective nature of conciseness as well as the nature of the relationship between our minds and bodies.

Sporky · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

The idea that nothing can be accepted as fact until it can be explained by science saddens me.

Surely the idea that we should accept anything as fact without thorough investigation is dangerous in the extreme?

octatonic · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

I understand that there is a lot we can't explain - for example, particles (I think on the quantum level) that behave differently depending on whether they are being observed or not. It's a fascinating feature which may have hugely significant implications about the nature of consciousness or could equally be a simple but wondrous quirk.

Are you talking about wave-particle duality?
That isn't a settled matter.

Without getting into it too much John Wheeler's 'Delayed-Choice Experiment', a series of thought experiments from 1978, tried to test the theory.

This paper is probably the best summary of efforts made to test Wheeler's experiments:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3557028/

From the abstract:

'No naive realistic picture is compatible with our results because whether a quantum could be seen as showing particle- or wave-like behavior would depend on a causally disconnected choice. It is therefore suggestive to abandon such pictures altogether.'

That isn't to say that there is not *some* evidence to support the theory but people often fail to realise that quantum theory does not measure single events and who counts as an observer?

This essay is probably the best way to understand it for lay people.
It is still fairly complex.

http://einstein.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

Sporky said:

Placidcasual79 said:

The idea that nothing can be accepted as fact until it can be explained by science saddens me.

Surely the idea that we should accept anything as fact without thorough investigation is dangerous in the extreme?

I am with you 100% on that @Sporky, absolutely. It'd be dangerous and divisive - and I'd be wary of any sort of school of thought, movement, organisation or ideology that relies solely on the unquantifiable or unproven. Lots of examples of that sort of thing.

But I also think it's limiting to discount or disregard things that have yet to be explained by science or not to consider possibilities that are not confined by our current levels of understanding.

Sporky · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

But I also think it's limiting to discount or disregard things that have yet to be explained by science or not to consider possibilities that are not confined by our current levels of understanding.

I'm fine with that - but they shouldn't be accepted as fact. They are ideas, musings, possibly hypotheses.

Theres also a gap between accepting and not dismissing. There's a load of potentially interesting stuff in that gap, whether it's provable or not, but I think it's important to see that speculation isn't the same as establishing.

My apologies I've I've misunderstood - it is not my intention to misrepresent your position.

octatonic · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

The idea that nothing can be accepted as fact until it can be explained by science saddens me. I actually believe that faith, in its many forms, is an essential component of human happiness. In that context I'd define faith as being a willingness to commit to, believe in or simply accept the possibility that your own experience is limited and there are things of value, greater things, beyond it - things that some people would call or attribute to god.

You're entitled to think that but we are diametrically opposed on this.
I think faith has caused many more problems than it solves.

I don't expect to know everything and there are some things I don't know about in detail that I accept as fact.
The universe is so complex that it is impossible to know everything about everything on an individual level.
I'm talking more about collective knowledge than individual knowledge.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

octatonic said:

Placidcasual79 said:

The idea that nothing can be accepted as fact until it can be explained by science saddens me. I actually believe that faith, in its many forms, is an essential component of human happiness. In that context I'd define faith as being a willingness to commit to, believe in or simply accept the possibility that your own experience is limited and there are things of value, greater things, beyond it - things that some people would call or attribute to god.

You're entitled to think that but we are diametrically opposed on this.
I think faith has caused many more problems than it solves.

I don't expect to know everything and there are some things I don't know about in detail that I accept as fact.
The universe is so complex that it is impossible to know everything about everything on an individual level.
I'm talking more about collective knowledge than individual knowledge.

No - I agree with you @Sporky - should NOT be accepted as fact. You're right - I think I am talking about what you describe much better than me - the gap between accepting and not dismissing.

Yes - I take your point @octatonic - about the problems faith has caused..... particularly if we think about human history, the harm caused by faith is perhaps astronomical. It's difficult to definitively measure these things isn't it? You could certainly convincingly argue that there have been wars and other atrocities caused or at least in part attributable to religious beliefs or faith. I think of faith in more general terms - as a choice to believe in something.... and that can also alleviate suffering or bring happiness, perhaps to many people in their everyday lives. You may have faith that things will get better, you may have faith that your partner will be there for you, you may have faith that your local, utterly terrible and financially crippled football team will be rescued by a millionaire superstar who makes a living diving round in a red catsuit while waving two swords about lol

But in all seriousness I agree - faith can be problematic, especially if we're thinking about that sort of dogmatic, fanatical type (though someone smarter than me might say there is a lot of other stuff going on there as well). But I think of faith in a more pragmatic, every day decision sense.

Sporky · October 2023

That might be the strata of faith thing?

So at the lowest level it's reasonable to have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow (I'd guess at around 7am in the south of the UK).

Next level might be that if you press the button at a pedestrian crossing, the lights will go red for the cars and green for you, and you'll be able to cross safely.

Then at some point we go through the gambler's fallacy (if you get six heads in a row the next toss will come up tails).

That dinosaurs existed might be the next.

Then - meaning no offense I any direction - we get into religious belief, UFOs, conspiracy theories and so on. I'm not equating them, I am saying they do not necessarily depend on scientific evidence.

So "faith" can mean anything across a rather broad spectrum.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

Yes...... I like that idea @Sporky. ;I haven't heard the expression 'Strata of faith' before - but I think I understand it from your explanation..... it's like a spectrum of conviction?

To me thats an interesting idea and one that holds a lot value.

I would hope I have an open mind. I would hope that I am able to recognise the value or validity of other peoples ideas or lifestyles. I try to consider each conspiracy theory or UFO sighting on its own merits. As it goes I am very doubtful about 99% of UFO sightings and conspiracy theories.

On the flip side I've done 20 plus years working in Child Protection and have seen some truly horrific things. Working through what can seem like endless and incomprehensible suffering has raised some enduring doubts for me about people. Worse, my doubts about people are severly compounded by the governments lack of genuine interest or concern for people on the fringes. Despite what at times felt like overwhelming evidence about the flaws in human behaviour I choose to have faith in the belief that people are essentially good and have only behaved in an inappropriate manner because of their own experiences... (I know there are exceptions to this rule) and, given enough time and resources, the problematic aspects of their thinking and behaviour could be adequately addressed. This is purely theoretical of course. In practical terms it is at best unlikely.

A belief in the essential decent nature of people is an act of faith on my part and one that is necessary for me to continue working and trying to secure positive outcomes for the families I work with.

anyway - I am waffling. Apologies lol.....

Sassafras · October 2023

I believe everything L. Ron Hubbard taught us.
Without question.

Sporky · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

Yes...... I like that idea @Sporky. ;I haven't heard the expression 'Strata of faith' before - but I think I understand it from your explanation..... it's like a spectrum of conviction?

I think so.

I might have made up "strata of faith" as a phrase, but not the concept - that's an old one. I think I encountered it in The Demon Haunted World.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

Sporky said:

Placidcasual79 said:

Yes...... I like that idea @Sporky. ;I haven't heard the expression 'Strata of faith' before - but I think I understand it from your explanation..... it's like a spectrum of conviction?

I think so.

I might have made up "strata of faith" as a phrase, but not the concept - that's an old one. I think I encountered it in The Demon Haunted World.

If you've created the term 'strata of faith' it's a mic drop situation @Sporky!. ;

I haven't read 'the Demon Haunted World'..... in fact I'd never heard of it till you mentioned it a moment ago..... just doing bit of google digging. Looks really interesting. Will definitely get down the library to have a go on that.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

octatonic said:

Placidcasual79 said:

I understand that there is a lot we can't explain - for example, particles (I think on the quantum level) that behave differently depending on whether they are being observed or not. It's a fascinating feature which may have hugely significant implications about the nature of consciousness or could equally be a simple but wondrous quirk.

Are you talking about wave-particle duality?
That isn't a settled matter.

Without getting into it too much John Wheeler's 'Delayed-Choice Experiment', a series of thought experiments from 1978, tried to test the theory.

This paper is probably the best summary of efforts made to test Wheeler's experiments:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3557028/

From the abstract:

'No naive realistic picture is compatible with our results because whether a quantum could be seen as showing particle- or wave-like behavior would depend on a causally disconnected choice. It is therefore suggestive to abandon such pictures altogether.'

That isn't to say that there is not *some* evidence to support the theory but people often fail to realise that quantum theory does not measure single events and who counts as an observer?

This essay is probably the best way to understand it for lay people.
It is still fairly complex.

http://einstein.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf

Yes - I think I was talking wave-particle duality - I didn't realise it wasn't a settled matter. The accounts I read about it presented it as a consistently observable phenomenon, but accepted that the cause was unknown.

Thats interesting - I am. not smart enough to follow all thats being discussed. But as you. say the essay is a little more manageable.

I hope you don't mind me asking but do you have a professional and/or personal interest?

Winny_Pooh · October 2023

FWIW the only vaguely valid speculation I've encountered about UFOs/aliens is that those persons who have abductions and encounters are of the (naturally tiny group) shamanistic disposition, which means their brain chemistry allows for spontaneous psychedelic experiences.

DMT users encounter the exact same entities.... a close friend had a similar experience on ayahuasca.

So perhaps ultimately the explanation is that an interesting strata of the unconscious is being accessed. C.G Jung would theorise thus.

octatonic · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

octatonic said:

Placidcasual79 said:

I understand that there is a lot we can't explain - for example, particles (I think on the quantum level) that behave differently depending on whether they are being observed or not. It's a fascinating feature which may have hugely significant implications about the nature of consciousness or could equally be a simple but wondrous quirk.

Are you talking about wave-particle duality?
That isn't a settled matter.

Without getting into it too much John Wheeler's 'Delayed-Choice Experiment', a series of thought experiments from 1978, tried to test the theory.

This paper is probably the best summary of efforts made to test Wheeler's experiments:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3557028/

From the abstract:

'No naive realistic picture is compatible with our results because whether a quantum could be seen as showing particle- or wave-like behavior would depend on a causally disconnected choice. It is therefore suggestive to abandon such pictures altogether.'

That isn't to say that there is not *some* evidence to support the theory but people often fail to realise that quantum theory does not measure single events and who counts as an observer?

This essay is probably the best way to understand it for lay people.
It is still fairly complex.

http://einstein.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf

Yes - I think I was talking wave-particle duality - I didn't realise it wasn't a settled matter. The accounts I read about it presented it as a consistently observable phenomenon, but accepted that the cause was unknown.

Thats interesting - I am. not smart enough to follow all thats being discussed. But as you. say the essay is a little more manageable.

I hope you don't mind me asking but do you have a professional and/or personal interest?

I'm an amateur, but a keen one.

Grunfeld · October 2023

Winny_Pooh said:

So perhaps ultimately the explanation is that an interesting strata of the unconscious is being accessed. C.G Jung would theorise thus.

I dunno if one is accessing anything. I'd be more inclined to speculate that taking a bucket load of an hallucinogenic makes one's brain less competent at its job of reality checking.

For what it's worth I'm sure that can be useful for folk who's regular version of reality is problematic because of having a brain which sees patterns that make life seem depressed and unworkable. A psychedelic shake up could be useful; seeing things differently can feel different too.

Placidcasual79 · October 2023

octatonic said:
Yes - I think I was talking wave-particle duality - I didn't realise it wasn't a settled matter. The accounts I read about it presented it as a consistently observable phenomenon, but accepted that the cause was unknown.

Thats interesting - I am. not smart enough to follow all thats being discussed. But as you. say the essay is a little more manageable.

I hope you don't mind me asking but do you have a professional and/or personal interest?

I'm an amateur, but a keen one.

Wow - thats pretty cool @octatonic.... can I ask what your interest is in? Chemistry? Physics?

Winny_Pooh · October 2023

Grunfeld said:

Winny_Pooh said:

So perhaps ultimately the explanation is that an interesting strata of the unconscious is being accessed. C.G Jung would theorise thus.

I dunno if one is accessing anything. I'd be more inclined to speculate that taking a bucket load of an hallucinogenic makes one's brain less competent at its job of reality checking.

For what it's worth I'm sure that can be useful for folk who's regular version of reality is problematic because of having a brain which sees patterns that make life seem depressed and unworkable. A psychedelic shake up could be useful; seeing things differently can feel different too.

I think it's more than just random. In the first legally approved DMT study in the US IIRC over 40% of those in the trials had alien encounters according to the clinician Rick Strassman. Very high numbers. Of course Graham Hancock would tell you that psycedelics are like a cosmic telephone to real entities. But more realistically, layers of the unconcious which are largely consistent and often universally so, are well documented by Jung and associates.

octatonic · October 2023

Placidcasual79 said:

octatonic said:
Yes - I think I was talking wave-particle duality - I didn't realise it wasn't a settled matter. The accounts I read about it presented it as a consistently observable phenomenon, but accepted that the cause was unknown.

Thats interesting - I am. not smart enough to follow all thats being discussed. But as you. say the essay is a little more manageable.

I hope you don't mind me asking but do you have a professional and/or personal interest?

I'm an amateur, but a keen one.

Wow - thats pretty cool @octatonic.... can I ask what your interest is in? Chemistry? Physics?

Physics mostly, but I try to be as multi-disciplined as I can.

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The UFO Phenomenon as a Liminal Object

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