What price point does it stop being about part+ labour and turn into fairy dust?

slacker · October 2023

With a one person or small workforce you cannot compete with larger manufacturers. So instead of high volume low markup the usual option is low volume high markup. In order to do that you need a niche market of bespoke hand made exclusive products with some form of desirability.

However the big two have all the market covered including the low volume high markup bespoke stuff with master built and made to measure. Gibson are even getting into the vintage market.

With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?

It has to be a vocation with a following built over time and respect to anyone who does it.

soma1975 · October 2023

Dave_Mc said:

soma1975 said:

But I will fight you if you say 50s wiring is fairy dust!

It's not fairy dust- it makes a difference for sure.

But it doesn't cost any more than regular wiring. It's just connecting the wire between the volume and tone pot to a different lug on the volume pot.

Way to put all the techs out of business, mate..

OilCityPickups · October 2023

slacker said:

With a one person or small workforce you cannot compete with larger manufacturers. So instead of high volume low markup the usual option is low volume high markup. In order to do that you need a niche market of bespoke hand made exclusive products with some form of desirability.

However the big two have all the market covered including the low volume high markup bespoke stuff with master built and made to measure. Gibson are even getting into the vintage market.

With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?

It has to be a vocation with a following built over time and respect to anyone who does it.

'With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?'
Well ... with PAFs even Gibson couldn't keep to a single spec or sound within the golden couple of years of PAF production, using alnico 2,3 and 4 pretty much interchangeably and with wildly varying winding levels. I could say the difference is in the level of bullshit a maker is prepared to shovel to claim he or she has the 'magic formula' ;-)

guitars4you · October 2023

OilCityPickups said:

slacker said:

With a one person or small workforce you cannot compete with larger manufacturers. So instead of high volume low markup the usual option is low volume high markup. In order to do that you need a niche market of bespoke hand made exclusive products with some form of desirability.

However the big two have all the market covered including the low volume high markup bespoke stuff with master built and made to measure. Gibson are even getting into the vintage market.

With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?

It has to be a vocation with a following built over time and respect to anyone who does it.

'With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?'
Well ... with PAFs even Gibson couldn't keep to a single spec or sound within the golden couple of years of PAF production, using alnico 2,3 and 4 pretty much interchangeably and with wildly varying winding levels. I could say the difference is in the level of bullshit a maker is prepared to shovel to claim he or she has the 'magic formula' ;-)

About PAF's - My favourite quote from an article, that I read some while ago, in a guitar mag, was 'they were made from the finest ingredients available on the day'

SteveRobinson · October 2023

The cheapest ingredients probably. I bet a humbucker cost cents to make in 1959.

Well maybe a bit more. There are some Fender costings in the Black Guard book and a Telecaster lead pickup costs Leo $1.73 to make

OilCityPickups · October 2023

SteveRobinson said:

The cheapest ingredients probably. I bet a humbucker cost cents to make in 1959.

Well maybe a bit more. There are some Fender costings in the Black Guard book and a Telecaster lead pickup costs Leo $1.73 to make

Certainly from the Gibson ledgers etc that have been published from the late 50s, magnets were sourced according to price and availability ... not any abstracts about how they would 'sound'.

SteveRobinson · October 2023

I expect unpolished Alnico was cheaper than the polished stuff?

BigPaulie · October 2023

Tall_martin said:

What price point does the cost of a guitar stop being about parts, labour, shipping, rent and turn into fairy dust?

As soon as the word "Custom" is used.

BigPaulie · October 2023

Sporky said:

Any sensible business also allows for future support costs in the sale price.

So are more expensive products more likely to break?

Dave_Mc · October 2023

soma1975 said:

Dave_Mc said:

soma1975 said:

But I will fight you if you say 50s wiring is fairy dust!

It's not fairy dust- it makes a difference for sure.

But it doesn't cost any more than regular wiring. It's just connecting the wire between the volume and tone pot to a different lug on the volume pot.

Way to put all the techs out of business, mate..

LOL

To be fair, if you're rewiring it to 50s spec from modern spec, it will take a bit of time and labour so it's absolutely fair enough to charge for that. You don't need any more parts (well, unless the wire is *just* the right size, I guess, and won't stretch a millimetre more), but there is work (desoldering and soldering) to be done. A bit of a pain, even, on a semi-hollow or similar.

Where it's not ok (IMO) is to have the "worse" one in your cheaper instruments (much like "incorrect" value pots) and act like the "better" one is an upgrade worth a sizable upcharge when both options cost the same.

Dave_Mc · October 2023

OilCityPickups said:
'With pickups etc how is one PAF different from another?'
Well ... with PAFs even Gibson couldn't keep to a single spec or sound within the golden couple of years of PAF production, using alnico 2,3 and 4 pretty much interchangeably and with wildly varying winding levels. I could say the difference is in the level of bullshit a maker is prepared to shovel to claim he or she has the 'magic formula' ;-)

Did PAFs ever use alnico 5 or was that just patent number ones and later?

(Wasn't the PAF originally specced with alnico 5? But then when it came to ordering the magnets presumably they just bought whatever was cheapest when it was time to order...)

Bolters · October 2023

In most respects the market decides value. Nothing to do with ‘fairy dust’.

Will X guitar sell for X price. It’s a yes/no question. Marketing aside, it’s supply and demand.

I don’t believe most guitar players are ignorant and are being hoodwinked by manufacturers and builders. There are bad actors out there but they usually get found out very quickly.

If the guitar isn’t worth the asking price to you, don’t buy it.

Offset · October 2023

Tall_martin said:

Less clear to me, is is a basic American Gibson or Fender that much better than a Mexican or top end Ephiphone.

In my (Fender) experience, yes. Others will doubtless have experienced the opposite.

rossi · October 2023

. Every Ford I've had has had an issue which nobody could solve and I stepped away from the brand some years ago.

I had an XR3 that refused to run when the tank got low ..it restarted after a waiting and removing the cap to cheacl any gas Took it to a Ford dealer who couldnt find anything wrong .One day it stopped in a country lane and an old boy stoopped and enquired .After explanation he said to check the little hole in gas cap ....doh of course .Air lock ..

OilCityPickups · October 2023

SteveRobinson said:

I expect unpolished Alnico was cheaper than the polished stuff?

Very probably ... it certainly wasn't for the tone. :-)

rossi · October 2023

There is little intrinsic difference twixt any master painting and childs splodges but one ends up on the fridge and the other in a bank vault to be brought out for special occasions .I suspect the same is true of guitars.Beyond a certain price level its bragging rights all the way ..I reckon about 1500 -2000 is the break off point .After that its just fancy this and that and the label .I find the real cut off point is for me does it have rolled fret edges and a good fret level and nut job ?.If it does its probably a goer .If not its a cheapie to work on .

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What price point does it stop being about part+ labour and turn into fairy dust?

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