What price point does it stop being about part+ labour and turn into fairy dust?

Tall_martin · October 2023

What price point does the cost of a guitar stop being about parts, labour, shipping, rent and turn into fairy dust?

Different countries, different wages.

Different woods, different sounds.

Different electronics, different sounds.

Mass produced Vs 1 person in a shed

At what point is the price of a guitar just fairy dust?

Fender/ gibson custom shop- more time spent by ( hopefully better paid more skillful) people

USA/ UK built Vs other labour

Paint Vs reliced by hand/ template

Fender squire- mexican- American-special American custom shop- specific builder- mega limited edition.

Same for PRS/ gibson ephiphone

Where does the fairy dust start?

This is a genuine question!

MrTee · October 2023

£500 or thereabouts for me
Mainly about name on headstock

monquixote · October 2023

It's the case at every price point

If you buy a Squire it's going to cost more than a guitar made to the same specs in the same factory that's not associated with Fender.

If you buy a Feline (For example) you are getting way closer to the effort that it took to build the guitar than buying a Murphy Lab.

theatreanchor · October 2023

£2k or so.

Supportact · October 2023

Too many variables, and you've listed some of them. Depends on your wants and requirements. Also guitar players aren't rational and will happily pay extra for a name, a bit of nostalgia, etc. The good news is you've got loads of good options at every price range.

Sporky · October 2023

Tall_martin said:

Where does the fairy dust start?

With the first use of the word "tone".

Slightly less flippantly, the sale price of an item has been divorced from the cost of production for centuries.

johnhe · October 2023

The very definition of “brand value” in the sales & marketing world, is to try to convince people that a product is worth more than what it cost to build.

I heard it explained like this (not supposed to be scientifically or statistically completely correct of course): if you have a Ford Focus and a BMW 1 or 2 series. They’re both basically very similar. The Ford is basically the same reliability and very similar component parts as the BMW. Yet a customer will pay 2x the price for the BMW. That difference in price is the value in the BMW brand.

Purely from a marketing point of view, it’s very similar in the guitar world. Whether it’s a romantic memory thing, or nostalgia, or whatever. The whole point of a brand manager is to try to convince people that their product is worth more than the sum of the cost of its parts.

SteveRobinson · October 2023

Exactly.

A Fender Telecaster probably costs about the same to make as a Harley Benton. The difference is the brand value.

Nerine · October 2023

I'd say after you've bought something consistently quality like a Suhr or something in the £2-3k bracket, everything else after that becomes nonsense, IMO.

You could level the same thought process with Suhr as well, but of all the instruments I've played and owned, only my Suhrs have felt like they were truly good value. Is every 2-3k guitar better than every 500-1k guitar? Probably not.

I bought my Classic Pro years ago before Peach moved for £1999. It's still my main guitar to this day and I adore it, so for me it's worth the £1999 I paid. It feels like huge value and it's paid for itself many times over. It also still looks basically brand new despite being played very hard and having thousands of hours on it. The frets barely show any wear either.

£3k for my Alt-T Dealer Select was slightly more difficult to justify, but that was purchased 2-3 years ago and prices had gone up a lot. It's a hell of a guitar and I'm unlikely to part with it, so it's just about worth it. Whether I'm getting more guitar for my money in comparison to something that costs £500, who's to say. I do know that most every cheaper guitar I've played doesn't feel quite as premium somehow. Everything feels a little looser, slightly less solid, not quite as performant, not quite as resonant, not as lively etc.

It's a subtle thing, and everyones thoughts and feelings on it will be different.

Part of me thinks the component pieces (mass production) of a "decent" guitar probably add up to no more than about £400 realistically with economy of scale contributing to lower prices than that for new instruments. I could be well off on that, btw.

I doubt either of my Suhrs would be as durable, or feel or sound as good if they were built using £400 worth of parts and labour, though.

Danielsguitars · October 2023

My walnut build I'm doing now is over £1k in parts alone so far and my construction isn't straightforward either, stringing up a guitar then tweaking a neck profile takes hours before it's good enough, people pay what they think something Is worth.

This is all labour intensive work, there's no cnc to help out.

Putting small maker builds alongside mass made is not a fair representation, even Suhr, Anderson etc are big makers by comparison.

CavemanGrogg · October 2023

When it costs more than a Squier, Harley Benton, or 99p, which ever is higher.

HAL9000 · October 2023

I’d say it varies not only from person to person, but also from make to make. For instance - I’d say that the ‘sweet spot’ in the Fender range is probably the Vintera series but someone else might say the ‘sweet spot’ is the American Professional. Anyway, once you decide where the sweet spot is for you then anything more pricey is probably fairy dust.

Tall_martin · October 2023

So

Any description of tone= fairy dust

Any branding to justify the cost= fairy dust

Nostalgia= fairy dust

@Danielsguitars I'm not suggesting a small maker has the same costs as a corporate behemoth pumping out 10,000's of guitars that are exactly the same. Some one like your self or a small team just aren't going to be able to get a bulk discount on every part of the process, and will cost more. But there will be some one charging double, triple for the same economy of scale and justifying it with tone, brand or nostalgia.

Like bog oak. Its been in a bog for thousands of years, yet some wood from 1959 has the magic. I imagine bog oak is tricky to come by in guitar shapes bits and therefore expensive. The bog oak guitars I've seen are costly, but not 1950's electric guitars costly. Or even crafted by Fender or Gibsons named builders costly

Maybe a fair comparison is a small builder Vs factory custom shop. All the economies of scale, Vs none and the limited hand signed fender copies are still £££££.

But there is definitely some point where it's stopped being about better parts/ woods/ time/ paying people a good wage for good work and becomes.... magical pricing

£10,000 fodera bass. They are made in New York, the rent and wages must make a massive chunk of the final price.

https://thebassgallery.com/collections/all/products/fodera-anthony-jackson-signature-6-34

$25,000 telecasters, that's clearly mass produced with all the economies of scale possible magical fairly dust. And yet, how much would Jimmy Page have wanted to paint something on 25 guitars? That won't have been free.

https://ledzepnews.com/2019/01/24/here-are-all-the-details-of-fenders-recreation-of-jimmy-pages-dragon-telecaster/

$250,000 Jen's Ritter bass with mammoth ivory nut, is it just about bragging rights? Surely no-one is going to take that out of the investment bank vault and play it anywhere?

https://www.luxuo.com/business/collectibles/bass-guitar.html#:~:text=The $250,000 bass guitar, The,-year-old mammoth ivory.

Less clear to me, is is a basic American Gibson or Fender that much better than a Mexican or top end Ephiphone.

prowla · October 2023

johnhe said:

The very definition of “brand value” in the sales & marketing world, is to try to convince people that a product is worth more than what it cost to build.

I heard it explained like this (not supposed to be scientifically or statistically completely correct of course): if you have a Ford Focus and a BMW 1 or 2 series. They’re both basically very similar. The Ford is basically the same reliability and very similar component parts as the BMW. Yet a customer will pay 2x the price for the BMW. That difference in price is the value in the BMW brand.

Purely from a marketing point of view, it’s very similar in the guitar world. Whether it’s a romantic memory thing, or nostalgia, or whatever. The whole point of a brand manager is to try to convince people that their product is worth more than the sum of the cost of its parts.

Now, you see - that's and example of one person's perception.

Car-wise, I've had Fords and Vauxhalls, but the BMWs I've had have all been better places to be. Every Ford I've had has had an issue which nobody could solve and I stepped away from the brand some years ago.

My next aspiration is a used Land Rover, which is probably a bit anti-hierarchy; I looked at a couple of them on the weekend.

I've just had a 20 year old Renault Scenic hit the end of the road (cam belt failed) and it was a great car, but it had issues like the plastic went sticky and everything was not quite top-notch. It's being replaced by a Suzuki 5-door whateveritis.

Back to instruments and I'd say I've got pro-level kit, be they Rickenbacker, Fender, and so-on.

I've then got some cheaper stuff, which is evidently made to a price.

I've not got anything further up the tree - custom shop, expensive distressed finishes, and other foo don't do it for me.

So I'd put £1-2k as my boundary.

Bigsby · October 2023

Tall_martin said:

At what point is the price of a guitar just fairy dust?

Where does the fairy dust start?

The price is never just fairy dust, unless you're buying an air guitar.

Buy what you want and don't worry about it, just play it and forget about how much of the price is brand, mojo, tone wood, 50s wiring, 'I can't believe they're not PAF' pickups, relic-ing, AAAA quilt top or whatever.

Kilgore · October 2023

Why pay a premium for a 'name' on the headstock when you can get an Ian Elson custom build for a quarter of the price.

soma1975 · October 2023

It doesn't really matter.

If small independent maker or musical instrument behemoth A valued their time and skill at xyz it's up to you to decide if their time and skill is worth that cost to you.

As someone that films things for a living plenty of times potential clients tell me they can get an 18 year old out of college to do it for next to nothing. If they say that I always recommend that they do. Because a deal is great until a lack of skill and experience causes a multitude of problems.

I think it's the same in this arena. You're not paying for an independent makers parts and labour, you are also paying for their years/decades learning their craft. Or in Gibson's case for their CEO to get another diamond encrusted Harley. Up to you how you value those things. Joking aside, Gibson wouldn't be a lifestyle brand if people didn't want an association with the brand, and so that carries a premium irrespective of the intrinsic quality of the guitar.

I still feel it is my duty to call out outright shucksters like Vertex and Isle of Tone though.

soma1975 · October 2023

But I will fight you if you say 50s wiring is fairy dust!

drofluf · October 2023

If we assume that, as a whole, the industry makes a fair* profit then from an economic perspective you could say that the fairy dust starts once the profit margin exceeds the industry average.

*whether the profit is fair is another whole thread

TheBigDipper · October 2023

I don't think the price of a guitar (or anything else) has ever been about the cost of production. It's always been about the price the market will bear at the time. There's no such thing as "fair profit", IMHO. You price your product according to the market. If they'll pay it, you're fine. If they won't, you reduce your price until they do - or stop making it because you don't get enough back for your efforts.

The only exceptions to this are essentials from suppliers with a monopoly in the marketplace, or a fixed wholesale price set by a government body, like gas, water, electricity, etc. They need to be controlled and the profit needs to be "fair".

Litterick · October 2023

The price of a new guitar will always be more than the cost of its production, because otherwise the manufacturer would lose money on every sale. How much more depends not only on the manufacturer's profit but also marketing and shipping costs. The retailer will also have costs and a profit margin.

GoldenEraGuitars · October 2023

The thing is, what you have called “fairy dust” (the profit that’s left over once all the overheads, labour and materials are paid for) isn’t to screw the consumer over. It’s usually used to R and D new models, marketing for new models so that you know they exist, buying the materials the item/s, counteract rising overheads costs etc etc.

The big issue is when you have a massive company charging massive prices to keep making the same standard items it’s obvious how much cash flow and profit they need to keep the wheels moving.. this is where the marketing comes into play and they need to pay to have the products shoved in our faces to get sales up even more.

Sporky · October 2023

Any sensible business also allows for future support costs in the sale price.

Snap · October 2023

also, the buying power of large co vs small co is very different. A guitar sized slab of walnut will cost a small outfit a lot more than it will cost a large outfit who can buy in huge volume.
Same argument applies for almost every single cost to a business.

darthed1981 · October 2023

An old friend of mine I met off here once commented to me "most of the value in a guitar is added between about £300 and £1000" and I think he was probably right.

The only thing I'd say on top of that is that the quality on a shop-brand or similar from £100 to £300 can be stunning for the money, and often all the instrument anyone really needs.

Above 1k there is a lot of smoke and mirrors, but also too many level-headed people and great musicians see value there to dismiss it. Also rich people who can barely play but it keeps luthiers in jobs.

OilCityPickups · October 2023

Sporky said:

Any sensible business also allows for future support costs in the sale price.

And advertising, and the costs development of future upgrades/projects, and protection of intellectual property, and yes, you are paying for a 'name' because it costs money to build a reputation. Yes you are also 'paying for bragging rights'[ because building a brand and creating a ethos you want to 'buy into' costs money.

Welcome to capitalism :-)

FelineGuitars · October 2023

Most small luthiers run their businesses as “not for profit” operations, but not on purpose.

darthed1981 · October 2023

FelineGuitars said:

Most small luthiers run their businesses as “not for profit” operations, but not on purpose.

Which given the quality of their work and some of the dross Gibson shove out for nigh on 3k, must stick in the craw somewhat?

Though I suppose fixing Gibsons is a bit part of the business!?

Dave_Mc · October 2023

soma1975 said:

But I will fight you if you say 50s wiring is fairy dust!

It's not fairy dust- it makes a difference for sure.

But it doesn't cost any more than regular wiring. It's just connecting the wire between the volume and tone pot to a different lug on the volume pot.

Danielsguitars · October 2023

FelineGuitars said:

Most small luthiers run their businesses as “not for profit” operations, but not on purpose.

Never a truer word said Jon, I'm always broke.

OilCityPickups · October 2023

Danielsguitars said:

FelineGuitars said:

Most small luthiers run their businesses as “not for profit” operations, but not on purpose.

Never a truer word said Jon, I'm always broke.

I think this goes for most of us small makers ... you can't get rich or even particularly 'comfortable' doing this ... you do it because you love it.

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What price point does it stop being about part+ labour and turn into fairy dust?

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