I'm calling bull**** on this!

axisus · October 2023

OK, so maybe I'm wrong, feel free to put me in my place if so, but I was just looking at a pretty expensive custom built guitar on FleaBay and apparently it has no truss rod. Personally I don't think I'd want a guitar with no truss rod. Anyway, the bit that sounded daft to me was this:

This was built to replicate the early fenders that have no truss rod, [factual, so OK] .... which is thought to allow the string vibrations to ‘connect’ and resonate more freely through the wood, into the body. Which in turn affects the tone in the pickups. [er .... yeah ... right...]

I would presume that if it was a 'good' idea we would see a lot more guitars without truss rods. As it is surely you just have a guitar that can't be set up optimally?

idiotwindow · October 2023

Probably.

OilCityPickups · October 2023

Sounds like the drifts of male bovine excrement have piled deep with this'un :-)

timmypix · October 2023

That's someone who really doesn't think no truss rod is a good idea but is trying to come up with ways to sell it beyond being vintage accurate.

steamabacus · October 2023

I believe Vigier don't (didn't?) use a truss rod but they do (did?) have carbon fibre stiffening strips in the necks.

GuyR · October 2023

True the first fender broadcasters had no truss rod, realised it was a bad idea then installed them in every guitar since

tony99 · October 2023

Well I'm convinced and as such am commencing to remove all truce rods from my guitars. I need that connecty strings vibe in my life!

Winny_Pooh · October 2023

Yeah, unless its a multi laminate of CF neck (a pinecaster wont be) it's total bullshit.

I really wish I could LOL ebay ads

ClydeCoaster · October 2023

Not something I'd be the slightest bit interested in but it jogged a memory and a bit of searching brought up this:

Fender custom shop 1950 pine Esquire.

Its one-piece rift-sawn maple neck has a 1950 Esquire profile, no truss rod, a 7.25"-9.5" vintage compound radius and 21 medium vintage frets.

https://www.fendercustomshop.com/series/vintage-custom/vintage-custom-1950-pine-esquire-maple-fingerboard-aged-black/

Sassafras · October 2023

All very well till you have to adjust the neck relief.

Jeremiah · October 2023

I think I remember reading that some of the early Status basses had no truss rods, but they had super stiff graphite necks so maybe didn't need them.

blobb · October 2023

My Kramer has no truss rod. Then again it's made from aluminium.

ICBM · October 2023

Martin acoustics had no truss rods until 1985, and some purists/snobs think it's one of the reasons 'the old ones sound better". Which they may or may not...

However, the idea that neck resonance can affect the tone of an electric guitar - more importantly than the body and yes, even via the pickups - is not bullshit at all.

I'm sceptical of any claim that string vibrations 'connect', 'transfer' or whatever and thus 'improve' the sound, though - the most you can say is that it might sound *different*.

mgaw · October 2023

Waterloo K acoustic I have is sans truss rod, only thing it does is to give me another thing to worry about. Oh well. Sounds ace though

idiotwindow · October 2023

ICBM said:

Martin acoustics had no truss rods until 1985, and some purists/snobs think it's one of the reasons 'the old ones sound better". Which they may or may not...

Actually they didn't have adjustable truss rods before 1985 but I reckon you knew that. I think you have to go back to the pre-war Martin guitars to find ones without a truss rod at all.

fretmeister · October 2023

Status basses originally didn't have a truss rod, but after a decade or 2 customers complained that the necks were completely rigid so they changed the design to weaken the necks and make them flexible and put a rod in.

skullfunkerry · October 2023

Don't those pancake-looking headless guitars (can't remember the name, maybe Klein?) have no truss rod?

ICBM · October 2023

idiotwindow said:

Actually they didn't have adjustable truss rods before 1985 but I reckon you knew that. I think you have to go back to the pre-war Martin guitars to find ones without a truss rod at all.

Technically, not a truss rod - it's a reinforcement bar. A truss rod is tensioned.

SteveRobinson · October 2023

axisus said:

This was built to replicate the early fenders that have no truss rod, [factual, so OK]

http://www.guitarhq.com/fender2.html#sch

DrBob · October 2023

Doesn’t Rick Kelly build Telecasters without truss rods ?

octatonic · October 2023

Most of the early Klein headless guitars were built without a truss rod.
Some are fine.
Some *really* aren't.

On 'Which is thought to allow the string vibrations to ‘connect’ and resonate more freely through the wood, into the body.'

Many more things will make a more material difference to the tone of a guitar.

What does 'resonate more freely' even mean?
I'd like him to explain this, in scientific terms.

Does it mean that the system moves more freely because of a lack of truss rod?
If so, how does it manage to do that at all frequencies?
All you do by adding or removing a truss rod is slightly changing the resonant frequency and Young's Modulus of the system.
I will explain.

A lot of guitarists misunderstand what resonance is.
It is used as a catch all term meaning some variation on 'good' but resonance is a specific attribute of an object or system.
The key here is 'a system'.
A guitar is not a single object.
It is the sum of many parts, acting together as a system.

Resonance is simply a quality or phenomenon that happens when a system will absorb the energy of an externally applied force that is at the 'natural frequency' (or eigenfrequency) of the object or system.

How does this quality refer to 'better tone'?
Answer: It doesn't.

Is he talking about the Young's Modulus of the system- the measurement of elasticity or axial compression of an object or system?

You can calculate the Young's Modulus of a guitar if you want.

The formula for this is E = σ/ε, where E is the Young's Modulus.
σ = F/A , or F (Tensile strength) over A (cross sectional area).
ε = (l - L0)/L0. ε is the relative change of length.

A low Young's Modulus means that less force is needed to create strain on the system compared to a higher YM (where more force is needed).

Broadly speaking (in acoustic guitars) a low Young's Modulus is better than a higher one, provided structural integrity is maintained.
The system moves more freely, the guitar is louder and deeper sounding.
As a broad description, stiff things sound bright and decay quickly, loose things are lower in pitch and decay more slowly.

You can lower a YM by a number of methods.
The classic one is to shave small amounts of the soundboard away in specific places.
But you could also make the bracing lighter.

OK, so what is the ideal Young's Modulus for a guitar?

Answer: There isn't one.

In an electric guitar, it is a slab of wood that is way, way, way more stiff than the sound box of an acoustic guitar.
You know that because it is much quieter and much brighter.

Doing away with a truss rod in an electric guitar, even if it made a difference to tone, could be mitigated by making the body a bit thinner.

And once you feed it into an amp with EQ and effects pedals, and more importantly, the big fucking filter that is the guitar speaker it makes no real difference.

In my opinion it is total magical thinking bullshit that poisons guitar culture.
Similar ideas (broad, fuzzy descriptions of what constitutes 'tone') allow certain makers and corporations to exploit scientifically illiterate customers who buy into it.

idiotwindow · October 2023

ICBM said:

idiotwindow said:

Actually they didn't have adjustable truss rods before 1985 but I reckon you knew that. I think you have to go back to the pre-war Martin guitars to find ones without a truss rod at all.

Technically, not a truss rod - it's a reinforcement bar. A truss rod is tensioned.

Isn't a reinforcement bar (aka non-adjustable truss rod) under tension as soon as the strings are tightened?

Pabcrane · October 2023

octatonic said:

Most of the early Klein headless guitars were built without a truss rod.
Some are fine.
Some *really* aren't.

On 'Which is thought to allow the string vibrations to ‘connect’ and resonate more freely through the wood, into the body.'

Many more things will make a more material difference to the tone of a guitar.

What does 'resonate more freely' even mean?
I'd like him to explain this, in scientific terms.

Does it mean that the system moves more freely because of a lack of truss rod?
If so, how does it manage to do that at all frequencies?
All you do by adding or removing a truss rod is slightly changing the resonant frequency and Young's Modulus of the system.
I will explain.

A lot of guitarists misunderstand what resonance is.
It is used as a catch all term meaning some variation on 'good' but resonance is a specific attribute of an object or system.
The key here is 'a system'.
A guitar is not a single object.
It is the sum of many parts, acting together as a system.

Resonance is simply a quality or phenomenon that happens when a system will absorb the energy of an externally applied force that is at the 'natural frequency' (or eigenfrequency) of the object or system.

How does this quality refer to 'better tone'?
Answer: It doesn't.

Is he talking about the Young's Modulus of the system- the measurement of elasticity or axial compression of an object or system?

You can calculate the Young's Modulus of a guitar if you want.

The formula for this is E = σ/ε, where E is the Young's Modulus.
σ = F/A , or F (Tensile strength) over A (cross sectional area).
ε = (l - L0)/L0. ε is the relative change of length.

A low Young's Modulus means that less force is needed to create strain on the system compared to a higher YM (where more force is needed).

Broadly speaking (in acoustic guitars) a low Young's Modulus is better than a higher one, provided structural integrity is maintained.
The system moves more freely, the guitar is louder and deeper sounding.
As a broad description, stiff things sound bright and decay quickly, loose things are lower in pitch and decay more slowly.

You can lower a YM by a number of methods.
The classic one is to shave small amounts of the soundboard away in specific places.
But you could also make the bracing lighter.

OK, so what is the ideal Young's Modulus for a guitar?

Answer: There isn't one.

In an electric guitar, it is a slab of wood that is way, way, way more stiff than the sound box of an acoustic guitar.
You know that because it is much quieter and much brighter.

Doing away with a truss rod in an electric guitar, even if it made a difference to tone, could be mitigated by making the body a bit thinner.

And once you feed it into an amp with EQ and effects pedals, and more importantly, the big fucking filter that is the guitar speaker it makes no real difference.

In my opinion it is total magical thinking bullshit that poisons guitar culture.
Similar ideas (broad, fuzzy descriptions of what constitutes 'tone') allow certain makers and corporations to exploit scientifically illiterate customers who buy into it.

I think he, or she, is talking out of their arse.

I can't imagine that they considered Young's modulus or any other scientific principle.

It's the worst kind of advertising bullshit because some poor soul might believe it and be stuck with an overpriced sub-par neck'd guitar.

Sporky · October 2023

idiotwindow said:
Isn't a reinforcement bar (aka non-adjustable truss rod) under tension as soon as the strings are tightened?

From the teeny bit of structural engineering I did, I would expect it to be in compression on the fingerboard side, and in tension on the opposite side.

Offset · October 2023

I'd call 'bull' on this as well @axisus ;;. What a load of old bollocks.

prowla · October 2023

My Status Graphite doesn't have a truss-rod.

ICBM · October 2023

idiotwindow said:

Isn't a reinforcement bar (aka non-adjustable truss rod) under tension as soon as the strings are tightened?

No, not in the same way. (As Sporky said it will be in compression on the side nearest the fingerboard and in tension on the side at the back of the neck.) A reinforcement bar is not a non-adjustable truss rod - a truss rod is a tensioned, curved rod which exerts a bending force on the neck, independently of the string tension - it works because it's curved and the tension on it makes it try to straighten, hence bending the neck back along with it. A reinforcement bar simply stiffens the neck and tries to prevent it bending at all.

Tannin · October 2023

Martin Authentics - just this side of £8,000 a pop - don't have truss rods.

Are they better? I've never played one so I can't be sure, but I'm happy to call "bullshit" pending further information. Oh, I'm sure they sound pretty good - Martin know how to make a nice guitar - but £8,000 worth of good? Not a chance.

skunkwerx · October 2023

I heard Parkers didnt have truss rods. But I heard that on a forum once.

Read it I mean.

I know the Eastern ones do, does anyone know if any truth to it? I know some American ones had carbon fibre necks and glued on frets but not sure if thats true for all the American ones?

Sporky · October 2023

The US non-Nitefly ones were a carbon veneer/skin over wood - possibly poplar but I'm not certain of that. They did have a truss rod, adjustment was on the underside of the headstock I think.

ICBM · October 2023

Sporky said:

The US ones were a carbon veneer/skin over wood - possibly poplar but I'm not certain of that. They did have a truss rod, adjustment was on the underside of the headstock I think.

Yes, in the headstock cutaway which stops them hanging on a hanger. The rod is off-centre in the neck.

The wood does look like something like poplar.

http://www.maribyredivivus.it/portfolio/electric-guitar-parker-fly/

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