Hand wired boutique amps over production amps

Yorkie · September 2023

ICBM said:

Secret_Sam said:

When my kids finally graduate, getting a Matamp is on my bucket list. Because I bought a cab from Mat Mathias when I was about 19, and I really liked him (yes I know he is now no more).

Do they still tick all the right handmade, good layout boxes? I have in mind a thiry watter, because I don't live on a farm.

Yes, they're definitely still hand made. Many of the models use PCBs for the main part of the circuit (often with turrets for most of the components), but with chassis-mounted pots, jacks and valve sockets.

That’s a thing of beauty.

Secret_Sam · September 2023

The prices are not bad either. About £1650 for the GT40 or the Series 3000.

Nerine · September 2023

MikeP said:

How is it ridiculous? Those guys DEFINED what good sound IS. If Clapton had played a guild in 66 everyone would be chasing those as the definition of good sound. Or to put it another way, the gear WAS made magical...

What?

Nah. No they didn’t. Conflating the performance with the equipment, again.

The sound was “good” because they could play and they were groundbreaking at the time.

Their songs and performances wouldn’t have sounded any worse on any of the other period equipment at the time.

Alex2678 · September 2023

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Nerine · September 2023

Alex2678 said:

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Which is in line with my original post.

gumbothewiddler · September 2023

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc.

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong.

Secret_Sam · September 2023

Where do Session amps fit into this picture?

ICBM · September 2023

gumbothewiddler said:

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc.

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong.

Only if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not equipped to do surface-mount work or experienced with it, but I know techs who are... if you can fix a mobile phone or a laptop at component level - and they can - then a guitar amp is a piece of cake. OK, some may not be *economically* repairable, but that's more a reflection on low manufacturing cost than repairability.

At the end of the day a *high quality* PCB amp is at least as durable as a hand-wired one - provided the board itself is decent, and components which produce lots of heat, are heavy enough to vibrate, or are subject to external physical damage (ie valves, high-power resistors, pots and jacks) are mounted properly or off the board entirely. Of course, in many these things aren't done because it costs more.

Alex2678 · September 2023

Nerine said:

Alex2678 said:

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Which is in line with my original post.

Yeah it is, but I think it’s also in line with what MikeP was saying.

gumbothewiddler · September 2023

ICBM said:

gumbothewiddler said:

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc.

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong.

Only if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not equipped to do surface-mount work or experienced with it, but I know techs who are... if you can fix a mobile phone or a laptop at component level - and they can - then a guitar amp is a piece of cake. OK, some may not be *economically* repairable, but that's more a reflection on low manufacturing cost than repairability.

At the end of the day a *high quality* PCB amp is at least as durable as a hand-wired one - provided the board itself is decent, and components which produce lots of heat, are heavy enough to vibrate, or are subject to external physical damage (ie valves, high-power resistors, pots and jacks) are mounted properly or off the board entirely. Of course, in many these things aren't done because it costs more.

That’s essentially what I said re PCBs. My original SLO is a PCB as they all were and you would be hard-pressed to find anything more durable. Heck, they were so confident offered lifetime warranties to the original owners.

However, It’s my preference not to own an amp with surface mount components. I’m sure you probably do know people who can fix surface mount amps but I suspect most people wouldn’t know who to go to and whether it’s economically worth it to fix. Therefore, by their very nature, they will become disposable. iPhones etc are economically viable as they have an endless queue of people who want them, even refurbished and they are sold in quantities vastly in excess of guitar amps.

russpm · September 2023

Paul1401 said:

Alex2678 said:

I think it depends, the people that have bought them will likely think they were, some people may have decided they’re not and gone with production amps. Not all production amps are created equal, not all boutique amps are created equal, were there any specifically you were looking at?

I was considering Emprize or Gartone over Marshall.

I can highly recommend a Gartone amp. Martin gives plenty of options, including components, to make the amp exactly how you want it.
knowing exactly what you want is another thing and it’s good to try different amps to get there. In my experience knowing what you don’t want is half the battle.

Stuckfast · September 2023

Nerine said:

People drone on about the Zeppelin drum sound. It’s nothing special, really. The songs and the performances have the sound meaning or purpose and consequently, gave the gear a mystique.
If Bonham had been playing Premier rather than Ludwig, people would have been fawning after that instead.

The Bonham drum sound is probably the one example where I'd disagree with you. Not because I think his choice of brand made much difference, but it was a very, very distinctive drum sound, and actually the production on most Zeppelin stuff went quite against the ’70s trend to make everything dry, dead and close-miked. Bonham's drum tuning was unusual, as was his choice of a 24-inch kick, and his reported refusal to let anyone mic up the individual drums.

What other well-known track from the early 70s has a drum sound at all similar to When The Levee Breaks?

Secret_Sam · September 2023

I was told that the critical component of the drum sound for When The Levee Breaks was that it was recorded in the stair well of Headley Grange. It's the room, not the kit, that makes it distinctive.

Nerine · September 2023

Secret_Sam said:

I was told that the critical component of the drum sound for When The Levee Breaks was that it was recorded in the stair well of Headley Grange. It's the room, not the kit, that makes it distinctive.

The room is a big part of it for sure. But the kit matters, too.

Stuckfast · September 2023

There are a bunch of things that make that particular track unique. Not only was it recorded in a very ambient stairwell but they used no close mics or overheads mics at all -- just a pair of Beyer M160s two floors up -- so what you hear is just the room mics. There's also a Binson echo which was tracked as part of the sound.

Not all of Bonham's drum sounds are quite as extreme as that, but who else was doing that in 1971?

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Hand wired boutique amps over production amps

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