Fender’s post boom cancellations!

FelineGuitars · August 2023

timmypix said:

I mean, this is just an evolution of the Gibson Demo Shop/Mod Shops.
They're taking old B-stocks, returns and artist loans and either selling them as-is with a demo stamp at a discount,

Which explains the problems one of our forum members had with one he bought from there - it was already a possible lemon that had been returned and the problems not addressed

Bigsby · August 2023

GoldenEraGuitars said:

It’ll be interesting to see if the new RRP’s come down or if they’ll just stagnate. The new CS models (whatever they cost nowadays) will partially dictate the used market too.

AFAIK, there's absolutely no issue in shifting CS models. I've noticed times this year when stores like Andertons & GAK have almost zero stock of CS Strats. Given the quoted build-time last summer was 'at least 12 months', such shortages of stock would reflect ordering made pre-CoL crisis, in other words, not a wise move to avoid overstock in a downturn.

RRPs have certainly gone up in the last 12 months; one CS model I looked at last summer was £4,150, the same spec is now £5,199 (though not in stock). That's a far from modest increase! My impression is that expensive guitars are still selling, despite (or because of?) price rises, but it's the rest of the market (thus a much bigger volume) that's seeing the slow down in sales. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the existing price gap in the coming months.

Bigsby · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

So did someone at Fender actually think the lockdown boom was going to be sustained?

If so, that wasn't that clever.

It sounds like their dealers did, not that Fender necessarily did. But equally if you spend big money to serve that demand that's on you...

Yes, it's a bit unfair to criticise Fender for not seeing a downturn in sales coming. What where they supposed to do, tell the retailers to get lost?

The scale of the cancelled orders is quite interesting though, makes me wonder quite what the scale of completed orders has been.

chris78 · August 2023

guitars4you said:

FelineGuitars said:

I have said it often before and will continue to do so:

"Guitars generally do not get thrown away and en up in landfill like old phones, computers and tech.
Fender and Gibson's biggest competitor in the marketplace is themselves and stuff they made previously"

If a percentage of the population bought a guitar during lockdown, they still have a guitar to play and may simply be learning new songs.
Most will not feel the need for many more guitars (I know that sounds like heresy on this forum)

They can only hope that in the next planned lockdowns to come that more folks will want to buy a guitar??!

This by the bucket load - I've said the same for many years

I don't know how many used guitars are listed for sale today on Facebook, reverb, gum tree, e-bay etc but it will be a few thousand - Every penny spent on those is a sale the manufactures won't get to see - I can sell the same used guitar many many times over and make a buck on it each and every time I sell it - The manufactures only have one shot at it

Manufactures have to hope your Gas problem will get far worse and/or they need to find many new customers

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

barnstorm · August 2023

chris78 said:

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

chris78 · August 2023

barnstorm said:

chris78 said:

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Bigsby said:

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

So did someone at Fender actually think the lockdown boom was going to be sustained?

If so, that wasn't that clever.

It sounds like their dealers did, not that Fender necessarily did. But equally if you spend big money to serve that demand that's on you...

Yes, it's a bit unfair to criticise Fender for not seeing a downturn in sales coming. What where they supposed to do, tell the retailers to get lost?

The scale of the cancelled orders is quite interesting though, makes me wonder quite what the scale of completed orders has been.

Well.. yes? In most industries it's quite normal to turn down sales if you don't have capacity to deliver, or in cases like Rolex & Hermes where they have plenty of capacity but no intention of selling to regular folk

Pjon · August 2023

Bigsby said:

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

So did someone at Fender actually think the lockdown boom was going to be sustained?

If so, that wasn't that clever.

It sounds like their dealers did, not that Fender necessarily did. But equally if you spend big money to serve that demand that's on you...

Yes, it's a bit unfair to criticise Fender for not seeing a downturn in sales coming. What where they supposed to do, tell the retailers to get lost?

The scale of the cancelled orders is quite interesting though, makes me wonder quite what the scale of completed orders has been.

I work in the bike industry where we saw a massive boom through lockdown, with rapidly decreasing supply. People were actually buying any old crap they could get their hands on just to get out of the house, and suppliers were offering us bikes from any random place. They all sold. Discounting stopped. Shimano, who make a huge amount of componentry stated that they were NOT going to be opening a new factory to deal with demand, and this led to supply problems which have now pretty much gone, except in a few specific areas. (I'm thinking here of the problems I had finding 12 speed drivetrain for one of my bikes a short while ago.) That was the correct approach, in the long term.

I had many conversations with my colleagues and suppliers about what was likely to happen post-Covid and we generally decided that if everyone bought a bike in 2020-21 then few people would need a bike after that. Most would gather dust. We might see demand rise a few percent as a few keen people carried on in their new hobby. And that's exactly what we've seen. But not everyone saw that, for whatever reason.

Similar to guitars, bike shops started cancelling orders as demand dropped, and meanwhile the suppliers were opening new warehouses as stock arrived from the Far East and sat unsold. This summer, we've seen constant reductions in trade prices, with related discounts at retail. We've also seen big companies fold, and this will continue as the poor planning and cashflow problems start to hit. There is a huge stock of unsold bikes sitting in warehouses around the world and meanwhile new stock, ordered several years ago, is still being produced and marketed. It's a complete mess. I'm guessing this will be the same in any hobby industry that did well during Covid.

Norlin4life · August 2023

chris78 said:

barnstorm said:

chris78 said:

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

What would they do about the hand signed headstock on a Private Stock refin do you know?

Musicman20 · August 2023

Pjon said:

Bigsby said:

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

So did someone at Fender actually think the lockdown boom was going to be sustained?

If so, that wasn't that clever.

It sounds like their dealers did, not that Fender necessarily did. But equally if you spend big money to serve that demand that's on you...

Yes, it's a bit unfair to criticise Fender for not seeing a downturn in sales coming. What where they supposed to do, tell the retailers to get lost?

The scale of the cancelled orders is quite interesting though, makes me wonder quite what the scale of completed orders has been.

I work in the bike industry where we saw a massive boom through lockdown, with rapidly decreasing supply. People were actually buying any old crap they could get their hands on just to get out of the house, and suppliers were offering us bikes from any random place. They all sold. Discounting stopped. Shimano, who make a huge amount of componentry stated that they were NOT going to be opening a new factory to deal with demand, and this led to supply problems which have now pretty much gone, except in a few specific areas. (I'm thinking here of the problems I had finding 12 speed drivetrain for one of my bikes a short while ago.) That was the correct approach, in the long term.

I had many conversations with my colleagues and suppliers about what was likely to happen post-Covid and we generally decided that if everyone bought a bike in 2020-21 then few people would need a bike after that. Most would gather dust. We might see demand rise a few percent as a few keen people carried on in their new hobby. And that's exactly what we've seen. But not everyone saw that, for whatever reason.

Similar to guitars, bike shops started cancelling orders as demand dropped, and meanwhile the suppliers were opening new warehouses as stock arrived from the Far East and sat unsold. This summer, we've seen constant reductions in trade prices, with related discounts at retail. We've also seen big companies fold, and this will continue as the poor planning and cashflow problems start to hit. There is a huge stock of unsold bikes sitting in warehouses around the world and meanwhile new stock, ordered several years ago, is still being produced and marketed. It's a complete mess. I'm guessing this will be the same in any hobby industry that did well during Covid.

Interesting comparison!

barnstorm · August 2023

chris78 said:

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

Thanks. Strange, then, that they haven't switched to a more stable product. Maybe it has other things going for it.

I'd be very wary, if I were a PRS dealer, of selling top-dollar guitars that I knew might well end up disappointing my customers.

guitars4you · August 2023

Hurling_Fruitmig said:

guitars4you said:

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear
Apologies for a slight thread drift, but I read this and had the bonkers idea of ordinary and well used-instruments being returned to be stripped down, refinished, and professionally relic-ed to 'add value'.

I can see where you are coming from - Was just an idea on a back of a 'fag packet' moment - Could the manufactures do any better than many of the good independent workshops already out there - No - But they can put their moniker on it which might add 'credibility' to some - Is it a profitable option - Not sure - Plus unsure how many appropriate 'luthiers' most manufactures have available to them , as in many factories one skilled worker only handles a part of the build - If Fender UK or Germany offered such a 'repair/hot rod/refurbishment' it would cost a bob or two to set up, to be able to offer all the options we might need - Just an idea for the factories to offer such a service , if they can no longer build/sell enough guitars

guitars4you · August 2023

chris78 said:

guitars4you said:

FelineGuitars said:

I have said it often before and will continue to do so:

"Guitars generally do not get thrown away and en up in landfill like old phones, computers and tech.
Fender and Gibson's biggest competitor in the marketplace is themselves and stuff they made previously"

If a percentage of the population bought a guitar during lockdown, they still have a guitar to play and may simply be learning new songs.
Most will not feel the need for many more guitars (I know that sounds like heresy on this forum)

They can only hope that in the next planned lockdowns to come that more folks will want to buy a guitar??!

This by the bucket load - I've said the same for many years

I don't know how many used guitars are listed for sale today on Facebook, reverb, gum tree, e-bay etc but it will be a few thousand - Every penny spent on those is a sale the manufactures won't get to see - I can sell the same used guitar many many times over and make a buck on it each and every time I sell it - The manufactures only have one shot at it

Manufactures have to hope your Gas problem will get far worse and/or they need to find many new customers

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

I don't speak to them now on a regular basis but I thought they now offered a PTC option in Cambridge to cover UK/EU warranty work - I know at one time they could/would factor out re-fin to a 3rd party - Can't remember who it was (was it Sims) but also know they were looking at such a workshop option for paint work in the UK

GoFish · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

dindude said:

With so few guitars to build it’s a shame their QC is the worst it’s been for ages. Their line up is also very drab. And I’m a massive Fender fan so doesn’t please me to say it.

I have't played enough to comment on QC but I can't argue on the lineup. I also find the model names incredibly confusing

Standard, Classic, American Standard, Deluxe, American Vintage was a relatively clear way of telling you what the model was without any other info.

Player, Performer, Professional, Ultra, Modern, Deluxe, Vintera... I have absolutely no idea where any of those are made and which are "better" or "more vintage-y" than others.

I thought that was by design - to make it difficult to appraise online and for used instruments. Puts Fender back in the driving seat for gatekeeping info about their models.

Bigsby · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

Bigsby said:

stickyfiddle said:

fretmeister said:

So did someone at Fender actually think the lockdown boom was going to be sustained?

If so, that wasn't that clever.

It sounds like their dealers did, not that Fender necessarily did. But equally if you spend big money to serve that demand that's on you...

Yes, it's a bit unfair to criticise Fender for not seeing a downturn in sales coming. What where they supposed to do, tell the retailers to get lost?

The scale of the cancelled orders is quite interesting though, makes me wonder quite what the scale of completed orders has been.

Well.. yes? In most industries it's quite normal to turn down sales if you don't have capacity to deliver, or in cases like Rolex & Hermes where they have plenty of capacity but no intention of selling to regular folk

Well, that assumes either they didn't have capacity to deliver or they don't want to sell Fender guitars to regular folk, and I don't think either is true: They took orders they could deliver on, but some of those have been cancelled by dealers who didn't anticipate the drop in demand. Although the number is large, I'm not sure what it represents as a percentage of their total orders.

PhilKing · August 2023

chris78 said:

guitars4you said:

FelineGuitars said:

I have said it often before and will continue to do so:

"Guitars generally do not get thrown away and en up in landfill like old phones, computers and tech.
Fender and Gibson's biggest competitor in the marketplace is themselves and stuff they made previously"

If a percentage of the population bought a guitar during lockdown, they still have a guitar to play and may simply be learning new songs.
Most will not feel the need for many more guitars (I know that sounds like heresy on this forum)

They can only hope that in the next planned lockdowns to come that more folks will want to buy a guitar??!

This by the bucket load - I've said the same for many years

I don't know how many used guitars are listed for sale today on Facebook, reverb, gum tree, e-bay etc but it will be a few thousand - Every penny spent on those is a sale the manufactures won't get to see - I can sell the same used guitar many many times over and make a buck on it each and every time I sell it - The manufactures only have one shot at it

Manufactures have to hope your Gas problem will get far worse and/or they need to find many new customers

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

My ME II was refinished in Eriza Verde and upgraded to have the signature switching by the PTC, however I live in the US. For me it was well worth it, as I love the color and the guitar. I am thinking about having some work done on my Artist II, because it was finished without the 'binding' on the body.

chris78 · August 2023

Norlin4life said:

chris78 said:

barnstorm said:

chris78 said:

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

What would they do about the hand signed headstock on a Private Stock refin do you know?

The neck is fine. I’d be getting a body only refinish

guitars4you · September 2023

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

guitars4you · September 2023

PhilKing said:

chris78 said:

guitars4you said:

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

My ME II was refinished in Eriza Verde and upgraded to have the signature switching by the PTC, however I live in the US. For me it was well worth it, as I love the color and the guitar. I am thinking about having some work done on my Artist II, because it was finished without the 'binding' on the body.

chris78 said:

Norlin4life said:

chris78 said:

barnstorm said:
Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

What would they do about the hand signed headstock on a Private Stock refin do you know?

The neck is fine. I’d be getting a body only refinish

The above two posts shows there is some interest for a 'factory/authorised' service/repair/restoration - So maybe some milage in my original comments as per above

mrkb · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

$100m in cancelled orders on 800,000 units is about $125 a unit, so mostly ukulele’s ???

Philly_Q · September 2023

mrkb said:

guitars4you said:

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

$100m in cancelled orders on 800,000 units is about $125 a unit, so mostly ukulele’s ???

And bar stools and beer coolers.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

mrkb said:

guitars4you said:

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

$100m in cancelled orders on 800,000 units is about $125 a unit, so mostly ukulele’s ???

And bar stools and beer coolers.

It's probably a mix of everything, so strings, cables, picks and pedals as well.

rhinofeet · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

Philly_Q said:

mrkb said:

guitars4you said:

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

$100m in cancelled orders on 800,000 units is about $125 a unit, so mostly ukulele’s ???

And bar stools and beer coolers.

It's probably a mix of everything, so strings, cables, picks and pedals as well

Whitecat · September 2023

That amount will be totted up from dealer net pricing too…

CavemanGrogg · September 2023

chris78 said:

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

PRS have been refurbishing and even upgrading their guitars for owners for a long time now, and not just refinishes, and repairs but also things like pickup swaps - it used to be impossible to buy PRS pickups on their own unless you could find somebody selling theirs secondhand the same for things like their locking machineheads now you can buy them off the shelf from places like Andertons but not so long ago you couldn't you had to either get PRS to put them on for you if you wanted them and your guitar didn't come with them or hope to find somebody selling theirs secondhand, swapping non locking machineheads to locking ones, upgrading last years model to this years specs, and just generally servicing and setting up PRS guitars.

As to it being financially viable or worthwhile for the customer, that depends on where the customer is based, for US based owners it more than makes financial sense, there is not much difference in costs to getting a good guitar tech or luthier to do the work than get the same work done by PRS.

As for UK owners of PRS guitars, it's a maybe, there are no custom charges to be had - you are returning something to the manufacturer to be repaired nothing new is being purchased there are no customs duties involved on anything that has already all been paid for when the guitar was imported into the UK and purchased by the person who bought it brand new, for something like a PRS Double Dragon - AKA guitars that are more pieces of art rather than tools, it is most certainly financially worth doing, it's the costs of getting your guitar from the UK to PRS in the States, and then the costs of getting your guitar shipped back to you from PRS in the States to the UK, which significantly increases the costs - get a quote from PRS and a quote for the same work to be done by somebody based in the UK using the exact same parts and materials if you deduct both the shipping and insurance costs form the PRS quote you'll see it compares very very favourably to the costs of having somebody UK based doing the exact same work and that is making the massive assumption that a UK based person is both capable of doing the work and more importantly being able to get the correct parts - PRS are notorious for using propriety parts and not selling these parts direct to the public or even their dealers and distributors their finishes for example are propriety only PRS can do a V6 finish no matter how good Nigel with his fully kitted out workshop is he can't match the finish no matter what he tells you.

guitarjack66 · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Additional report from the horses mouth

https://guitar.com/news/gear-news/fender-had-100-million-sales-cancelled-in-2022/?utm_source=Guitar.com&utm_campaign=448228385c-nl_w35_2y23_weekly_digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-448228385c-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

Sounds like a Corporal Jones from Dad's Army 'Don't Panic' statement.

GoldenEraGuitars · September 2023

guitars4you said:

PhilKing said:

chris78 said:

guitars4you said:

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

My ME II was refinished in Eriza Verde and upgraded to have the signature switching by the PTC, however I live in the US. For me it was well worth it, as I love the color and the guitar. I am thinking about having some work done on my Artist II, because it was finished without the 'binding' on the body.

chris78 said:

Norlin4life said:

chris78 said:

barnstorm said:
Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

What would they do about the hand signed headstock on a Private Stock refin do you know?

The neck is fine. I’d be getting a body only refinish

The above two posts shows there is some interest for a 'factory/authorised' service/repair/restoration - So maybe some milage in my original comments as per above

Don’t fender, Gibson and PRS already offer refinishing/service/upgrade services? Fender have been doing it since their factory doors opened.

* Sorry, I haven’t read the full post. I just skimmed it.

CavemanGrogg · September 2023

GoldenEraGuitars said:

guitars4you said:

PhilKing said:

chris78 said:

guitars4you said:

A small idea they could offer is a 'refurbishment' option - Send in a used model and they will clean, set-up, as required - Offer different packages inc re-frets, re-spray etc - This could be offered world over as required, via appropriate workshops in their own distribution centres, be it UK, Germany, Japan etc - With appropriate 'refurbishment certificate' - It could add additional credibility to some used gear

I think PRS already offer this, but it has to go back to the states.
I enquired about having a private stock in northern lights refinished as it’s faded but they won’t do it in the same colour and want to charge £1200.
Im not sure on the customs implications.
Doesn’t seem great value to me.

My ME II was refinished in Eriza Verde and upgraded to have the signature switching by the PTC, however I live in the US. For me it was well worth it, as I love the color and the guitar. I am thinking about having some work done on my Artist II, because it was finished without the 'binding' on the body.

chris78 said:

Norlin4life said:

chris78 said:

barnstorm said:
Don't want to derail the thread, but is it a recent guitar @chris78 ;? Just interested to know if they still have their particular problem with blue. Or has it actually become a desirable thing among PRS fans, like a faded burst on a LP?

@barnstorm Here's a private stock 2019 which has faded dreadfully that wildwire are trying to sell in "as new" condition https://wildwireguitars.com/prs-private-stock-modern-eagle-v-in-aquamarine-dragons-breath-ps-9261-pre-owned/?setCurrencyId=1&sku=20800&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxIaFgJeHgQMVSPntCh1tEwWOEAQYBSABEgKJ__D_BwE

Clearly PRS are still having issues with blues and also purples.
It's not desirable, other than possibly on a blue jean finish, but even then, I think most PRS buyers still want the blue showing. Some I've seen on the original modern eagles have totally faded.
I'd imagine @guitars4you would have experience and also views on fading in PRS finishes.

What would they do about the hand signed headstock on a Private Stock refin do you know?

The neck is fine. I’d be getting a body only refinish

The above two posts shows there is some interest for a 'factory/authorised' service/repair/restoration - So maybe some milage in my original comments as per above

Don’t fender, Gibson and PRS already offer refinishing/service/upgrade services? Fender have been doing it since their factory doors opened.

* Sorry, I haven’t read the full post. I just skimmed it.

Yes, and for quite a while now, and like you say Fender has being doing it since they opened, though not all of them offer as much - not all of them will do pickup swaps for example or upgrading last year's model to this years specs, as others do

ICBM · September 2023

CavemanGrogg said:

How are you getting even ballpark figures or financial information about the liquidity to debt ratio of a privately owned company, these documents and information are not available to nor made public

Google it. The figures aren't up to date, but they're unlikely to have improved dramatically if they currently have hundreds of thousands of cancelled orders.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

ICBM said:

CavemanGrogg said:

How are you getting even ballpark figures or financial information about the liquidity to debt ratio of a privately owned company, these documents and information are not available to nor made public

Google it. The figures aren't up to date, but they're unlikely to have improved dramatically if they currently have hundreds of thousands of cancelled orders.

Yep. When you're as big as Fender everyone wants to put a press release out when you do a deal

$400m facility agreed under 2 years ago:
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/fender-musical-instruments-completes-400m-term-loan-tight-to-talk-terms-67724434

And the majority shareholder is Servco Pacific, who bought at least some shares from TPG Growth. These are institutional investors; the typical private equity firms that take on companies with the explicit intention of growing the market cap and selling out a few years later.

https://www.axios.com/2020/01/28/servco-pacific-fender-tpg-growth#:~:text=Servco%20Pacific%20acquired%20a%20majority,co%2Dinvestment%20partner%20TPG%20Growth.

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