Advice please.........2x12 cab ..not getting sound I want

ICBM · September 2023

Dominic said:

I don't really know what I'm doing tbh

Yes you do

. Those observations are all pretty much on the mark, despite what you think is your limited experience.

Based on what you’ve said, I would replace the V30 with a Heritage G12H-30 55Hz - it’s a lot more open-sounding, less stiff and with clearer mids and more top-end sparkle.

This is a known great combination with the Greenback. If that doesn’t give you the right result but is a step in the right direction - I’m certain it will be - replace the Greenback with another Heritage.

The guitarist in my band has just been on exactly this journey and ended up there - he’s finally happy

.

The difference between series and parallel is noticeable but fairly subtle compared to differences in the speakers. Personally, I would go with whichever makes swapping the speakers you have easier - if it’s two 16s in parallel, keep it like that.

Dominic · September 2023

^ Thankyou @ICBM for taking the time to think of a pragmatic approach........I will do that I think
I'm still also considering the Creambacks ....what difference will I notice if I do use them ?

viz · September 2023

MikeP said:

Take one out and try each as a detuned setup? Save buying another speaker maybe.

Yep that’s whad I’d do. In fact it’s what I do anyway, permanently. I just have one hooked up They’re both physically there, but I unplugged the link between them. Then you can compare and contrast. Just remember to double the ohms.

ICBM · September 2023

Dominic said:

I'm still also considering the Creambacks ....what difference will I notice if I do use them ?

The Creambacks are both tighter and darker than their Greenback equivalents (G12M-65 = G12M-25, G12H-75 = G12H-30) so given your descriptions, I wouldn't choose them as they aren't necessary for the power handling you need.

Dominic · September 2023

Thankyou

Dave_Mc · September 2023

ICBM said:

(a) I agree with the general difference between Eminence and Celestion ratings - Eminence seem about 1-3dB overstated in sensitivity compared to Celestion (depending on the model), and about 50% overstated in power rating - Celestion are actually the outlier there, compared to most other manufacturers. I’ve seen more blown Eminences where I wouldn’t have expected it from the power of the amp than Celestions, although Eminence are far from the most fragile.

(b) Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands - or any two brands, in fact - even if you’re mixing speakers, I think each manufacturer has a sort of ‘house tone’, much like pickup makers do, and different ones don’t usually work well together. Just my experience though, it’s all personal taste really.

(a) WGS might be even worse- I tried my ET65s again recently, just for the lulz, and they're supposedly 100dB (ok 99.45, I just checked!) and they were basically noticeably quieter than any other speaker I have, apart from the really low efficiency Jensens.

(b) I don't think I ever got as far as mixing brands... I probably thought it was a bad idea because of what you said!

Dominic said:

Wow, there is so much good advice/suggestion here that I'm trying to take it all in.
This weekend I'm going to check the wiring /phase issue .....although I'm sure it's correct
I'm inclined to agree with the logic of NOT mixing speakers .....it's a bit like getting the bloke who helps out behind the bar at the Legion on sunday to mix a serious cocktail or the perfect Negroni ; I'm not an audio mixologist.
I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.
I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that
I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?
What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?
What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?
I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?
I also have a Scumback Scumnico in a 1x12 but that sounds very harsh ,unlike a Celstion Blue
I don't really know what I'm doing tbh
@nero1701......that's a great offer ,thankyou so much I; I may take you up on that if concensus is that it's the right direction
How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

I think most everything else has been answered, plus like you, I don't have that much experience (I haven't got as far as trying creambacks or EVs)- but like @ICBM says, I think you're bang-on. I wouldn't say mixing speakers is that complicated, there are a few well-known combos that work which are the usual place to start if you're new to it (Greenback + G12H30, V30 + G12T75 etc.)- but if you don't want to that's ok too.

I wonder if the Vox combo sounded more 3D and like it filled the room because it was probably open-backed?

I'm not sure about the series-parallel thing. The only time I've been able to compare it it also changed the impedance which also could be affecting the tone.

hywelg · September 2023

Dominic said:

I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....

In a 1x12 it maybe, in an oversized open back 2x12 it's full and balanced. It is a little direct or hard sounding but that's why the combo with a RF works well. The EV comes into it's own when pushed hard, the clarity and authority is remarkable.

Dominic said:

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard . And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Not crushingly loud, rehearsal volume possibly. But when you do go to crushingly.loud you will be very pleased with how well it stands up. I have one abiding memory of how well the speaker cab worked, playing through a Suhr Riot into a loud clean amp, DrZ EZG, just breaking up, playing 'Slither'. Trouser flapping territory, absolutely wonderful.

However even at lower volumes it's a great speaker.

Grunfeld · September 2023

ICBM said:

Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands.... [lots of caveats]

The caveats are really significant aren't they? In fact one of the things which I'm getting from this thread and which I guess we all understand is the variables are so variable.

For ages I've been gigging with a 1936 2x12 loaded with a Celestion and an Eminence and with three different amps it sounded brilliant -- for live I'm the only guitarist (which I love) and I look to sound there in the mix without doing it through sheer volume. The combination of speakers I inherited when I got the cab was just perfect and tbh it was with heavy heart that I recently swapped them out for a pair of neo Celestions -- purely a weight consideration.

@Dominic -- I dunno whereabout in London you are but you're more than welcome to try these on spec for a bit to see if they suit your cab and give you what you're looking for (or if anyone else is, they're here).

ICBM · September 2023

Grunfeld said:

The caveats are really significant aren't they? In fact one of the things which I'm getting from this thread and which I guess we all understand is the variables are so variable.

Yes, very much. That's just my experience with a lot of different speakers and a lot of different amps - almost all of which have not been deliberate choices, but whatever was to hand when replacing a blown speaker. When I have chosen, I've tried to get it right first go so I don't spend too much on experiments that don't work!

There can be some really surprising combinations that work - the most obvious is the V30 and G12T-75... logic would say that the V30 is much more sensitive and much middier, so it should totally dominate the mix and at best you may hear the buzzy top-end of the 75 - ie the worst of both worlds. But that's not what happens - somehow the 75 seems to suck out the overly shouty mid peak of the V30, add looser bottom end and sparkle at the top... and even more remarkably, it sounds quite balanced for volume. It works best as an 'x-pattern' in a 4x12" though, not so much side-by-side in a 2x12".

Grunfeld said:

For ages I've been gigging with a 1936 2x12 loaded with a Celestion and an Eminence and with three different amps it sounded brilliant -- for live I'm the only guitarist (which I love) and I look to sound there in the mix without doing it through sheer volume. The combination of speakers I inherited when I got the cab was just perfect and tbh it was with heavy heart that I recently swapped them out for a pair of neo Celestions -- purely a weight consideration.

Try replacing one with an Eminence Li'l Texas neo - that's one of the exceptions to my preference for Celestions for guitar, it's a fantastic speaker. (In fact better than the Celestion I replaced with it.) I have a Neo Creamback too, but currently no simple way of testing them together properly, as the Creamback is 16-ohm and the Texas 8-ohm.

Dave_Mc · September 2023

ICBM said:
There can be some really surprising combinations that work - the most obvious is the V30 and G12T-75... logic would say that the V30 is much more sensitive and much middier, so it should totally dominate the mix and at best you may hear the buzzy top-end of the 75 - ie the worst of both worlds. But that's not what happens - somehow the 75 seems to suck out the overly shouty mid peak of the V30, add looser bottom end and sparkle at the top... and even more remarkably, it sounds quite balanced for volume. It works best as an 'x-pattern' in a 4x12" though, not so much side-by-side in a 2x12".

I've only tried it in a 2x12- that might explain why I thought it was pretty good (and certainly better than I was expecting) rather than absolutely amazing!

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Advice please.........2x12 cab ..not getting sound I want

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