Advice please.........2x12 cab ..not getting sound I want

Dominic · August 2023

Great quality oversize 2x12 loaded with V30 and Greenback........head is a Soldano 30
Whats wrong ?.......sounds a bit too compressed and doesn't fill the room ...also very dark and ,dare I say, a bit muffled
What to do ?
Maybe one or both speakers are wrong or the combination is dark and uninspiring despite being quite a staple combination
Which speaker is making it dark and compressed ?
Which speaker has a crisper edge to the sound at modest volume ?
Which to replace (if not both ) and what to install in it's stead ?

Petepassion · August 2023

You’re more than welcome to try out my cabs, jcm800 2x12 and 4x12 and an orange 4x12.
i have the rehearsal room booked for Thursday evening. But probably bit too much of a trek.

Dave_Mc · August 2023

It's not a stereo cab, is it?

Dominic · August 2023

Lovely offer Pete .......Thanks ,
It's a touch too far ......I ride a unicycle

Dominic · August 2023

Dave_Mc said:

It's not a stereo cab, is it?

no

leerocker · August 2023

take the v30 out mate and chuck another greenback in dom

ICBM · August 2023

Greenback and V30 is a very bad combination in my opinion, despite its apparent popularity, which I really don’t understand. It’s extremely mismatched and won’t get the best out of either speaker - less to do with either speaker alone and more the way they sound together.

Either replace the V30 with a G12H-30 (preferably Heritage) for a more classic/blues-rock sound, or replace the Greenback with a Creamback G12H-75 or Classic Lead 80 for a modern/hard rock sound, or a G12T-75 for metal.

Even two Greenbacks would be much better as leerocker said.

Power_Freak · August 2023

This is why I was never a fan of combining speakers, it's all a bit of a dark art to me.

I'm assuming the soldano has switchable impedance: try each speaker in isolation (don't crank it given the greenback's rating, be sensible with it) and see which you like best. Then I'd buy a matching version of whichever wins (unless you want to go the whole hog and replace both, that's a whole different conversation all together)

(I know others love combining speakers, so there'll likely be a long list of people telling me some new combination to try)

ICBM · August 2023

Power_Freak said:

I'm assuming the soldano has switchable impedance: try each speaker in isolation (don't crank it given the greenback's rating, be sensible with it) and see which you like best. Then I'd buy a matching version of whichever wins (unless you want to go the whole hog and replace both, that's a whole different conversation all together)

This is good advice. Although some combinations of two speakers are very nice, some just don’t work, which can also be amp-dependent, and two of the same type is definitely more predictable.

I’ve also remembered why the V30/Greenback pair became popular… Matchless used it in the 1990s. However, their customised V30 was very different from a standard one and actually closer to a G12H-30, which wasn’t available at the time. A standard V30 isn’t the same at all, and really doesn’t work with a Greenback.

Dominic · August 2023

Thanks for all the advice chaps

MikeP · August 2023

Take one out and try each as a detuned setup? Save buying another speaker maybe.

maharg101 · August 2023

Are the speakers definitely in phase ? Might be an "obvious" point, and might not result in what you've described, but I offer it nonetheless.

Dominic · August 2023

i think so but what would make them out of phase.......they don't sound thin
they sound dark ,a bit over-compressed and don't fill a room

Dominic · August 2023

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Modulus_Amps · August 2023

Are the speakers in a diagonal cab or side by side? if diagonal it makes a big difference which speaker is on the bottom.

Make sure the speakers are in phase, check the wiring on them. Someone bought one of my cabs second hand recently and the previous owner had swapped a speaker and got the phase wrong, the cab sounded horrible.

If you are struggling with compression then v30's would be my suggestion, trying each speaker by itself is a great idea though.
I don't know anything about the Alnico Red fangs, but normally Alnico speakers are more compressed when pushed.

Personally I find the Soldano sound to be quite compressed, more so than a typical Marshall amp, have you got another amp to play through the cabinet to make sure it is the cabinet that is failing?

Dominic · August 2023

good suggestions.......yes I can try another amp

Modulus_Amps · August 2023

The other thing to consider is oversized cabs are great at boosting low bass and low mids, which can sound great on its own or could mean the amp is struggling to fight through all that extra low end "help"

If your amp has a resonance/depth control turn it down as the cab is adding resonance already.

Power_Freak · August 2023

Dominic said:

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Speaking in generalities:
Eminence are very sensitive speakers (may be a plus or a minus depending on your view) - typically very midfocussed (at least there's a bass and treble roll-off in most eminences). This gives them a very "punchy" sort of sound that cuts through a mix really well, typically at the expense of "complexity" - I think this is a big reason why eminences are so popular, in a shoot-out loud, punchy and mids tend to sound "best".

The Alnico compressing when pushed probably won't be a huge deal as you'll be running a 30w head into a 100w cab at that point, I assume the RF should have a heavy enough magnet to hold up to what you're throwing at it.

It's been years since I've tried the RF in particular though (and never used a SLO), so I could be totally wrong on this - take all I say with a pinch of salt, etc. etc.

Dominic · August 2023

Modulus_Amps said:

The other thing to consider is oversized cabs are great at boosting low bass and low mids, which can sound great on its own or could mean the amp is struggling to fight through all that extra low end "help"

If your amp has a resonance/depth control turn it down as the cab is adding resonance already.

good point

hywelg · August 2023

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard . And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Dave_Mc · August 2023

Dominic said:

Dave_Mc said:

It's not a stereo cab, is it?

no

I figured you'd already thought of that and that it'd be too easy! I was hoping you could easily try them individually to see how you liked them alone.

ICBM said:

Greenback and V30 is a very bad combination in my opinion, despite its apparent popularity, which I really don’t understand. It’s extremely mismatched and won’t get the best out of either speaker - less to do with either speaker alone and more the way they sound together.

Either replace the V30 with a G12H-30 (preferably Heritage) for a more classic/blues-rock sound, or replace the Greenback with a Creamback G12H-75 or Classic Lead 80 for a modern/hard rock sound, or a G12T-75 for metal.

Even two Greenbacks would be much better as leerocker said.

Yeah pretty much. Or even two V30s- I haven't tried the SLO but two V30s sounded pretty great with my Jet City head when I tried them again recently.

Power_Freak said:

Dominic said:

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Speaking in generalities:
Eminence are very sensitive speakers (may be a plus or a minus depending on your view) - typically very midfocussed (at least there's a bass and treble roll-off in most eminences). This gives them a very "punchy" sort of sound that cuts through a mix really well, typically at the expense of "complexity" - I think this is a big reason why eminences are so popular, in a shoot-out loud, punchy and mids tend to sound "best".

Are they actually that efficient, though? I know they're rated as if they are, but to my ears they're nowhere near as efficient as their rating would suggest. EDIT: LOL I didn't mean that to sound so aggressive, sorry!

I also agree with you (and @ICBM ) about mixing- there are a couple of known killer combinations which sound excellent, but outside of that it's a bit of a dark art as you said. If you already have the speakers it's a shot to nothing to try combinations, but if you don't it's pretty much a crapshoot... and very amp-dependent as @ICBM said. And great points by @Modulus_Amps too.

(I agree about their voicing, though, at least for most of their speakers... they have a funny lower midrange thing going on, at least most of the ones I've tried.)

Dominic said:

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Probably more Voxy, I would guess. I've got a pair of them here (open-backed Genz Benz combo, though) and I guess I could try them through my Jet City (I'm sure I've tried it before, I just forget!)... the problem is that's probably not going to be close enough to your rig to really tell you a whole heap.

nero1701 · August 2023

I've a pair of Neo creambacks 16 ohms,

Happy to let you borrow them on a return postage...or buy them if you like them.

Power_Freak · August 2023

Dave_Mc said:

Power_Freak said:

Dominic said:

Gents,
Somebody (not here) has offered me a pair of Alnico Red Fangs .......I know they are a great speaker and have had one in a Vox AC15 and loved it BUT would they be a good choice for a Soldano slo30 Marshall type sound ?
What will they sound like ?

Speaking in generalities:
Eminence are very sensitive speakers (may be a plus or a minus depending on your view) - typically very midfocussed (at least there's a bass and treble roll-off in most eminences). This gives them a very "punchy" sort of sound that cuts through a mix really well, typically at the expense of "complexity" - I think this is a big reason why eminences are so popular, in a shoot-out loud, punchy and mids tend to sound "best".

Are they actually that efficient, though? I know they're rated as if they are, but to my ears they're nowhere near as efficient as their rating would suggest. EDIT: LOL I didn't mean that to sound so aggressive, sorry! I also agree with you (and @ICBM ) about mixing- there are a couple of known killer combinations which sound excellent, but outside of that it's a bit of a dark art as you said. If you already have the speakers it's a shot to nothing to try combinations, but if you don't it's pretty much a crapshoot... and very amp-dependent as @ICBM said. And great points by @Modulus_Amps too.

(I agree about their voicing, though, at least for most of their speakers... they have a funny lower midrange thing going on, at least most of the ones I've tried.)

I guess it depends on the eminence in question and what you compare them to - but in general they are very efficient. Or at least that's the "house style", they don't have a particularly "wide" frequency response (cut off treble a lot, cut off a little bit of bass - which makes them appear "middy"), they're efficient, and relatively compressed - this generally makes them more favourable in A/B testing if you're not careful (louder and middier tends to win in those sorts of things). As with most generalizations you can find particular examples that don't fit this style exactly, but their construction method pushes them towards that way compared to other brands.

They do rate sensitivity differently to celestion though, I can't remember all the details exactly but it's something like a closed back vs open back sort of deal - from memory it equates to around 1-2db "overstating" of eminence vs celestion (but that is a REAL memory test as I read about that years ago, happy to be proved wrong).

My "problem" with mixing speakers is less to do with the "killer" combinations - it's more to do with: take that killer combination and put it in a different cabinet (or with a different amp) and it can sound like crummy. I don't have the patience to find a pairing that works in each situation, it's hard enough finding 1 speaker that works for me!

Power_Freak · August 2023

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

It's also the answer to the question: "how did I get this slipped disc?"

Dave_Mc · August 2023

Power_Freak said:
(a) I guess it depends on the eminence in question and what you compare them to - but in general they are very efficient. Or at least that's the "house style", they don't have a particularly "wide" frequency response (cut off treble a lot, cut off a little bit of bass - which makes them appear "middy"), they're efficient, and relatively compressed - this generally makes them more favourable in A/B testing if you're not careful (louder and middier tends to win in those sorts of things). As with most generalizations you can find particular examples that don't fit this style exactly, but their construction method pushes them towards that way compared to other brands.

They do rate sensitivity differently to celestion though, I can't remember all the details exactly but it's something like a closed back vs open back sort of deal - from memory it equates to around 1-2db "overstating" of eminence vs celestion (but that is a REAL memory test as I read about that years ago, happy to be proved wrong).

(b) My "problem" with mixing speakers is less to do with the "killer" combinations - it's more to do with: take that killer combination and put it in a different cabinet (or with a different amp) and it can sound like crummy. I don't have the patience to find a pairing that works in each situation, it's hard enough finding 1 speaker that works for me!

(a) Oh yes I see what you mean- sort of like what I'd call a "more modern" tonality, which may well stem from a "more modern" construction, as you said. I'd agree with you there- I haven't tried anywhere near all of them, but I have tried a lot, and most of them sound a bit more modern than the more classic speakers which they're supposed to be "like", to my ears at least. And they do seem to have a "sound", as well. There are a few exceptions which don't do this just as much, but most of the ones I've tried do.

I also think most of them don't sound as loud as their ratings either- I agree with you about how they rate them, I don't think there's anything necessarily nefarious going on, it's just a different way to do it (I think their power ratings are similar in that respect- also a bit optimistic)- but if you're not aware of it, it can lead you astray. I've seen a lot of people on online forums being recommended an Eminence equivalent instead of, say, the Celestion version because "the Eminence is 3dB" louder, and I think to myself, "Y'know, they're probably the exact same volume. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised the Celestion is louder!" It's especially important if the person already has the Celestion, and the problem is that it's not loud enough!

(b) LOL yeah I know what you mean

@Dominic I tried my Jet City with my Red Fangs. Bunch of caveats, first- home volume (I only play at home); it's not the exact same amp you have; they weren't in the same cab; the RFs were 16 ohm versus 4 ohm for the V12s; personal preference etc. plays a big part; I don't really mind fizz and compression etc...

I'm not sure.

I tried them (in my open-backed 2x12 Genz Benz combo) against my Eminence V12s (in a closed-backed Jet City 2x12) and they sounded quite a bit crunchier and more vintage than the V12s. They had more of that Celestion crunchy upper mids and dirty high-end fizz going on. Not sure I'd say less compressed, or at least enough less compressed. It's really up to you- if you can get them second-hand and not lose anything if you sell them on, they might be worth a try. To be honest if you've tried them yourself before you probably know better than I will, lol...

(I do have V30s and Greenbacks but they're not currently in a cab and I didn't have time to try that.)

ICBM · September 2023

I agree with the general difference between Eminence and Celestion ratings - Eminence seem about 1-3dB overstated in sensitivity compared to Celestion (depending on the model), and about 50% overstated in power rating - Celestion are actually the outlier there, compared to most other manufacturers. I’ve seen more blown Eminences where I wouldn’t have expected it from the power of the amp than Celestions, although Eminence are far from the most fragile.

Most Eminences do seem to have a tighter, punchier but more midrangy tone too - in general I prefer Celestions for guitar, but Eminences for bass - although there are exceptions. I would avoid mixing the two brands - or any two brands, in fact - even if you’re mixing speakers, I think each manufacturer has a sort of ‘house tone’, much like pickup makers do, and different ones don’t usually work well together. Just my experience though, it’s all personal taste really.

Dominic · September 2023

Wow, there is so much good advice/suggestion here that I'm trying to take it all in.
This weekend I'm going to check the wiring /phase issue .....although I'm sure it's correct
I'm inclined to agree with the logic of NOT mixing speakers .....it's a bit like getting the bloke who helps out behind the bar at the Legion on sunday to mix a serious cocktail or the perfect Negroni ; I'm not an audio mixologist.
I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.
I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that
I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?
What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?
What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?
I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?
I also have a Scumback Scumnico in a 1x12 but that sounds very harsh ,unlike a Celstion Blue
I don't really know what I'm doing tbh
@nero1701......that's a great offer ,thankyou so much I; I may take you up on that if concensus is that it's the right direction
How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

MikeP · September 2023

Is it closed back? Did you try just taking one out and leaving the hole? Cost you nothing and it'll probably sound better...

Dominic · September 2023

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard . And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Power_Freak · September 2023

Dominic said:
a.) I don't have the experience or breadth of speaker knowledge to define difference......the difficult thing with this is swapping the speakers around and doing comparisons.......by the time I've opened a cab ,let alone swapped a speaker I've lost the tone in my head of the previous one completely .......so zero comparable experience.

b.) I don't really know the differences either ;
The Greenback sounds softer than the V30 and less defined but it's darker and also sweeter
the V30 seems punchy but a bit aggressive in a way that I don't like....it's hard and doesn't spread the sound
In fact neither seem to do that

c.) I have a single Creamback in a Voxy combo that just seems to spread and fill the room in a 3 dimensional way but is that the amp or the speaker ?

d.) What are the notable differences between Green and Creambacks ?

e.) What are the differences between open back and closed back cabs ?

f.) I have a EVM 12L in another 1x12 cab but I find that very bright and 'hard' sounding .....is that right ?

g.) How much and what difference does series /parrallel wiring make to a 2x12 cabinet other than correct resistance ?

a.) Unlike say a 2 PAFs which have subtle differences where you'd want to A/B - speakers are generally pretty different (assuming you're not comparing a greenback to a greenback clone, going from one "type" to another) you'll likely notice a different immediately

b.) V30s tend to cut through a mix really well - so they're good when you pile on the gain (or go scoopy) because it'll cut through in a band/recorded. If that's important to you it's a big plus. Metal guys seem to love the v30 for that reason.

c.) Possibly both

d.) Creambacks have more of a top end roll off, sound "smoother", more "refined" or "classy". Greenbacks are a little raw-er and more aggressive typically. The difference in wattage can also come into play depending how loud you go.

e.) Closed back more "focussed" and "direct" sounding, often "tighter" or "bassier" and can be perceived as "louder" because the sound only comes out "in one direction" - arguably you get more "speaker sound" in a closed back. Open back tends to have softer bass, they also "spread" the sound - based on your desire to "fill the room" I reckon you're an open-backer tbh

f.) EVs have a "sound" - they're typically very hifi and can take whatever you throw at them without breaking up, especially in the lower register. You might argue that EVs don't have a "sound" of their own and you "get more of the amp sound" - I don't think that's true in reality, but I can understand when people describe them that way.

g.) I always go for parallel (or "series-parallel" in a 4) - for no other reason that if a speaker blows/dies you won't be left with an open circuit and so you might save a costly amp repair in the worst case scenario. In terms of "tone" I have no idea if it makes a big difference - a 16ohm and 8ohm of the "same" speaker can sound a little different, but there are more important things to worry about.

Power_Freak · September 2023

Dominic said:

hywelg said:

Nearly every speaker problem question can be answered by ........ EVM12L

I have a Red Fang and an EV in an oversize vertical Dumble style oval rear ported cab and it is truly great. The EV gives, well, authority, when pushed hard . And the RF is subtle and forgiving at lower volumes but still holds up when pushed, but by that point the EV is dominant.

@Dominic ; I think you know Dave Buckley? He's got a Gold and an EV in his 2x12 that I built and he's a Marshall man through and through, it sounds at least as good as the 1960A 4x12. The Gold gives it a more strident top end where the RF is softer and easier on the ear, but Dave likes the bite.

Sure, but you've got to be crushingly loud to push the EV hard I assume

Compared to other speakers - EVs probably sound the "most similar" at low volume vs high volume because they just don't break up

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Advice please.........2x12 cab ..not getting sound I want

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