Livin on a Prayer & Beat It - how close to originals?

stickyfiddle · August 2023

2 questions in one here. We're thinking of doing either/both of these which brings me questions...

- Livin on a Prayer obv has a talkbox on the original. What do folks use to get close enough to that sound? I ain't buying one of those but have a wah and a flanger....

- Beat It needs the solo. I don't have a guitar with both a trem and humbuckers nor an appropriate Marshall (and I'm not buying them for 1 song...). Also I need to learn the tappy bits. Again... what do you lot do here? Learn it really properly, or get close enough, or something entirely else?

RocknRollDave · August 2023

Living on a Prayer doesn’t need the talk box and Beat It doesn’t need EVH’s solo, IMO.

People will just want to sing along to the singy parts.

Switch625 · August 2023

Several covers of the Beat It solo without a whammy bar on YouTube and it sounds near enough to the original.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Switch625 said:

Several covers of the Beat It solo without a whammy bar on YouTube and it sounds near enough to the original.

Yeah I've seen those, including one from our own @Danny1969. Trouble is I also can't tap for shit

gubble · August 2023

We do a Bon Jovi Medley which has both Living on a Prayer and It's My Life in it - was using a wah, however took the plunge and bought a s/h rocktron talkbox for around £50.

Sure i can do it without but it does add that missing ingredient to the song and a lot of people in the audience wonder what the hell i'm doing or how i actually make that noise.

We also do beat it - I'm not skilled enough to play the EVH solo and do my own take on it. I usually play it on a les paul so no trem and also don't do any tapping - most drunk punters down the dog and duck think it sounds awesome though............

fastonebaz · August 2023

For the talk box intro section I use a wah. I play open E, 5th 7th 5th on A and rock the wah so it's full treble when playing a note on the A string and full bass on the E string. Actuality since I use a Switchless wah technically it is off when i hit the E string.

Then for the C and D chords on each I do a slow sweep from bass to full treble to fill the duration of each chord so it ends at full treble before changing to the next chord.

Sounds like:

Mmmwwwaaahhhh, Mmmwwwaaahhhh, mmm wahb, whab, bb,bb, mmm, wahb, wahb, bb, bb

Etc

close enough for my needs

stickyfiddle · August 2023

@fastonebaz Yeah that's how I'd do it, and why I think wah is gonna work better than something on an LFO. The good news if I have a great BYOC wah that's nice and tweak able so I can get a good meaty sound out of it rather than just wakka wakka

stratman3142 · August 2023

I can't comment on Livin On A Prayer as I've not played it.

I used to play Beat It in a band. There are certain solos that are classics and, as guitarist, I feel the need to attempt to get reasonably close to the original. That also includes the first solo to Comfortably Numb, Alright Now etc. But whether anyone in the audience would care is another matter. Unless there's a critical guitarist watching.

In the case of Beat It, my solo was certainly only an approximation, as I find EVH's phrasing impossible to replicate exactly.

I still remember one gig where the band leader announced: "...and now with the Eddie Van Halen solo...".
Then the brass section parted and turned around to look at me. And there's this guy in the audience who ran to the front of the stage, folded his arms, and stared at me

Image: /plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/1.gif

stratman3142 · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

Switch625 said:

Several covers of the Beat It solo without a whammy bar on YouTube and it sounds near enough to the original.

Yeah I've seen those, including one from our own @Danny1969. Trouble is I also can't tap for shit

Yes here's the thread. @Danny1969 does it better than me. I cannot phrase things like EVH to save my life.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/139336/beat-it-without-a-whammy

flying_pie · August 2023

I've not done Living On A Prayer but have gigged the sequel - It's My Life. In rehearsals I experimented with different wah and even auto wah to approximate the talk box (even if I had one I couldn't use it as I was singing the main vocal) but it sounded crap.

In the end I just used a heavy tone and played with attitude. Worked fine.

I'd take the same approach with LOAP. Gain, probably some palm muting - especially in the verse - and plenty of attitude. Doesn't matter much more than the ball park guitar as all the prosecco-infused mums up dancing aren't going to see lack of a talk box as a deal breaker - they are more concerned with screaming the chorus

EricTheWeary · August 2023

I remember 25 years ago being shown the LOAP riff by a properly good guitarist (Pete Brookes who wrote, recorded and toured with Martyn Joseph as well as various other bands) and to the best of my memory he played the riff using distortion and a pinch harmonic type grip. You don’t get pinch harmonics down there but you can find a sweet spot where it sounds more clipped and different from just wacking away at the riff.

CaseOfAce · August 2023

Years ago I read a column by Mitch Dalton / session guitarist on Strictly Come Dancing who went out and bought a multi delay / Strymon type unit in order to replicate the delay into delay effect on Bowie's Lets Dance that they were doing for one number / for one night only on that show. He went into detail on the millisecond values required in the set up for it (and the outlay needed to purchase aforementioned unit

).

Skip to last week and there's a Nile Rogers rig rundown on youtube.
Nile's setup to replicate the sound when he does Let's Dance live right now?
Boss DD-3 and Ibanez chorus pedal (plus a strat and hot rod deville (mk 3s)). (walk into any Guitar Centre and buy ...yadda yadda..etc..)

Does it sound exactly like the record? nope.
Do the thousands in the festival audiences care? nope.

If I did Living on a prayer live these days? I'd just wah the intro riff. Job done.

Danny1969 · August 2023

I actually used a talk box for living on a prayer when we first started doing it but hated using the thing and I wasn't any good at using it anyway. I just play the riff these days, here's an old video .... excuse the playing, the only sober one onstage is session drummer Steve Duffy

The vocals are the hardest part to pull off. We bottle out the key change, generally go into some other song much to the crowd disappointment

)

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Nice work as ever @Danny1969 !

We have a couple of excellent girl-singers so for once I'm not worried about the high bits. We've already agreed our frontman will do the classic mic-into-crowd thing for these and the girls will back that up

CaseOfAce said:

Years ago I read a column by Mitch Dalton / session guitarist on Strictly Come Dancing who went out and bought a multi delay / Strymon type unit in order to replicate the delay into delay effect on Bowie's Lets Dance ...

Don't tell me you've never concocted a spurious reason why you absolutely need that one new bit of expensive/super-fun gear and you need it right now...

Snags · August 2023

For covers, for me, the questions is always: is this a tribute band, or are we just doing a cover? If you're just doing a cover, then basically it's an open field for doing whatever, from totally faithful through to a total re-interpretation, but generally settling on "Get the main bits reasonably close, and the rest however we/I feel comfortable".

This is particularly true when I'm adding songs to my list of "Songs that you should never do solo on an acoustic".

digitalscream · August 2023

OK...this was from my first gig in 15 years, when I started playing again (so be gentle):

Skip to 2:17 for the solo. It's not even close (and some horribly missed harmonics), but generally follows the structure of the original. The tapped bits are largely the same notes, tapped in slightly different patterns that I found easier. Weirdly, the part I always found hardest was the tremolo picking to finish with.

The point is...the crowd reaction. They don't care that it's not close, they just went with it anyway.

Incidentally, that was done without a trem, because I forgot the arm for my N4's Floyd...I just slid up and down the fretboard accordingly. No Marshall either, obviously, 'cos you can just about see a Laney VH100R in the background.

CaseOfAce · August 2023

digitalscream said:

OK...this was from my first gig in 15 years, when I started playing again (so be gentle):

Skip to 2:17 for the solo. It's not even close (and some horribly missed harmonics), but generally follows the structure of the original. The tapped bits are largely the same notes, tapped in slightly different patterns that I found easier. Weirdly, the part I always found hardest was the tremolo picking to finish with.

The point is...the crowd reaction. They don't care that it's not close, they just went with it anyway.

Incidentally, that was done without a trem, because I forgot the arm for my N4's Floyd...I just slid up and down the fretboard accordingly. No Marshall either, obviously, 'cos you can just about see a Laney VH100R in the background.

I think you'll being a little hard on yourself there Digitalscream.
Very impressive take on the solo. What great playing!

digitalscream · August 2023

@CaseOfAce - thanks, I appreciate that. Won't stop me being critical about it, though, and I'm still slightly annoyed with my brother (on drums) for starting it way too fast

Also...in that very same half hour set we also did Raise Your Hands and Get The Funk Out, so I definitely didn't make it easy on myself

stickyfiddle · August 2023

@digitalscream That was ace! Maybe not literally perfect but you still get all the points for the twiddly bits...

viz · August 2023

We do LOAP with a wah-wah (I got a rocktron for it but it changed the sound too much. A good quacky wah is perfect)

and for Beat It, just do the solo perfectly!

stickyfiddle · August 2023

viz said:

and for Beat It, just do the solo perfectly!

You can't make me! And frankly.. neither can i! :P

stratman3142 · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

@digitalscream That was ace! Maybe not literally perfect but you still get all the points for the twiddly bits...

Yes definitely the right vibe, which is the main thing for me.

newi123 · August 2023

I`ve found a phase 90 set to about 1 o`clock gives a nice feel to LOAP as I`ve haven`t had a wah pedal in front of me for about 25 yrs.

The key change is a killer for the singer - various amounts of pointing the mic at the audience from gig to gig depending on how he`s coping! :-) and we`re in Eb, so 1/2 a step down from the original.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Honestly for the setlist I'm looking at (max 25 mins for this gig at least) we'm actually looking at going to D standard for the last 3 songs, and capo up as required for the opening numbers. May be worth a try, but just getting some songs agreed in the first place is the main priority for now

digitalscream · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly for the setlist I'm looking at (max 25 mins for this gig at least) we'm actually looking at going to D standard for the last 3 songs, and capo up as required for the opening numbers. May be worth a try, but just getting some songs agreed in the first place is the main priority for now

Well, just for the opposite perspective...if you do play Beat It, then my experience is that the only thing most audiences are listening for is a suitably high-energy solo. It doesn't have to be right (as noted earlier, and even if you have a few guitarists in the crowd they probably won't spot it if you have a few simplifications), but you also can't fuck it up either.

Basically, if you can't find something to play that isn't on the very edge of your ability to get it right and still fits...you'll save yourself a lot of nerves if you just choose another song for now. As it was, I was sweating bullets when we played it (and mostly hid behind the PA column, just in case).

roberty · August 2023

Seriously impressive chops @digitalscream. It sounded musical and the playing is clean. Was close enough to the original to my ears

stickyfiddle · August 2023

digitalscream said:

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly for the setlist I'm looking at (max 25 mins for this gig at least) we'm actually looking at going to D standard for the last 3 songs, and capo up as required for the opening numbers. May be worth a try, but just getting some songs agreed in the first place is the main priority for now

Well, just for the opposite perspective...if you do play Beat It, then my experience is that the only thing most audiences are listening for is a suitably high-energy solo. It doesn't have to be right (as noted earlier, and even if you have a few guitarists in the crowd they probably won't spot it if you have a few simplifications), but you also can't fuck it up either.

Basically, if you can't find something to play that isn't on the very edge of your ability to get it right and still fits...you'll save yourself a lot of nerves if you just choose another song for now. As it was, I was sweating bullets when we played it (and mostly hid behind the PA column, just in case).

That's basically my plan for the next couple of weeks - work out where I can get to that has the right vibe while also being able to play it effortlessly and looking like a bit of a show-off. I can definitely work something up that manages that, it's just a question of whether it'll be flashy enough that I want to go and do it in public

I'll update as I go but I know our lead singer is dying to play it (as am I..), and it sounded great the one time we jammed through it and I didn't bother with the solo...

digitalscream · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

digitalscream said:

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly for the setlist I'm looking at (max 25 mins for this gig at least) we'm actually looking at going to D standard for the last 3 songs, and capo up as required for the opening numbers. May be worth a try, but just getting some songs agreed in the first place is the main priority for now

Well, just for the opposite perspective...if you do play Beat It, then my experience is that the only thing most audiences are listening for is a suitably high-energy solo. It doesn't have to be right (as noted earlier, and even if you have a few guitarists in the crowd they probably won't spot it if you have a few simplifications), but you also can't fuck it up either.

Basically, if you can't find something to play that isn't on the very edge of your ability to get it right and still fits...you'll save yourself a lot of nerves if you just choose another song for now. As it was, I was sweating bullets when we played it (and mostly hid behind the PA column, just in case).

That's basically my plan for the next couple of weeks - work out where I can get to that has the right vibe while also being able to play it effortlessly and looking like a bit of a show-off. I can definitely work something up that manages that, it's just a question of whether it'll be flashy enough that I want to go and do it in public

I'll update as I go but I know our lead singer is dying to play it, and it sounded great the one time we jammed through it and I didn't bother with the solo...

OK, the way I break these things down is in terms of effort and target notes. So this one would be...

Slow <tapped harmonics> - Fast <pause> - Fast - Slow - Slow <bends> - Slow - Fast - Fast <bend to exit>

So hit all the harmonics and the right notes at the end of each phrase, and you're pretty much golden as long as you stay in key.

roberty said:

Seriously impressive chops @digitalscream. It sounded musical and the playing is clean. Was close enough to the original to my ears

You're gonna make me blush in a minute

EricTheWeary · August 2023

digitalscream said:

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly for the setlist I'm looking at (max 25 mins for this gig at least) we'm actually looking at going to D standard for the last 3 songs, and capo up as required for the opening numbers. May be worth a try, but just getting some songs agreed in the first place is the main priority for now

Well, just for the opposite perspective...if you do play Beat It, then my experience is that the only thing most audiences are listening for is a suitably high-energy solo. It doesn't have to be right (as noted earlier, and even if you have a few guitarists in the crowd they probably won't spot it if you have a few simplifications), but you also can't fuck it up either.

Basically, if you can't find something to play that isn't on the very edge of your ability to get it right and still fits...you'll save yourself a lot of nerves if you just choose another song for now. As it was, I was sweating bullets when we played it (and mostly hid behind the PA column, just in case).

The story is that EVH played the solo and asked Michael Jackson what he thought of it and he said 'I love the high bits.' Years later EVH met Slash and asked him what he thought of working with MJ and he replied 'well Michael said he loved the high bits.'

So, needs high bits.

Sporky · August 2023

Could you do a lounge-jazz breakdown in place of the solo?

vasselmeyer · August 2023

On the point of "Livin' on a Prayer", most modern multi FX can do a really good approximation. Here's one from the Boss GT-1000 which I have nabbed and used in a couple of songs in our set.

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Livin on a Prayer & Beat It - how close to originals?

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