Can you put nylon classical strings on a steel string guitar?

Smellyfingers · August 2023

For reasons too boring to go into I accidentally ordered a set of quite nice Suarvez? classical strings.

Instead of them gathering dust I am pondering putting them on my Collings OM which is obviously recommended for steel strings.

My questions are would they sound awful together? And more pertintly are they likely to do a precious acoustic any damage? I’d try and be careful about knitting them through the bridge pins etc

(I can see putting steel strings on a classical guitar might be unwise, but not sure about the other round).

Tannin · August 2023

1: They won't do any harm.
2: You are going to have to do something clever to fix the strings in place at the bridge end.
3: You might have to do something even cleverer to get them through the holes in your tuning machines.
4: The tension will be all wrong and it will probably buzz like crazy
5: And it will probably sound like crap.

I am very confident about 1 to 3, fairly confident about 4, and ready to be proven wrong about 5.

You won't break anything, so why not give it a go?

Smellyfingers · August 2023

Thank for the very clear break down of possible downsides

Re: point 4. Is’nt theoretically possible to resolve any potential tension maladjustment on the standard tuning EADGBE set up, just by tightening/ loosening the strings from there, to hear if they sound better in another tuning?

fastonebaz · August 2023

I Want to know if anybody shreds electric guitar with nylon strings.

Tannin · August 2023

A good question @Smellyfingers! In theory, sure - but how high would you have to go? My guess is that the strings would snap long before you got to standard tension (using "standard" to mean the 60-odd kilos you get from a typical set of 12s). Classical strings are usually around 40kg - maybe that would be enough.

How much does a neck move when you take the strings off? I've never measured it.

drofluf · August 2023

Smellyfingers said:

Thank for the very clear break down of possible downsides

Re: point 4. Is’nt theoretically possible to resolve any potential tension maladjustment on the standard tuning EADGBE set up, just by tightening/ loosening the strings from there, to hear if they sound better in another tuning?

I imagine it would be the strings that suffer; to avoid buzzing you’ll need to increase the tension possibly above the breaking strain of the string but probably not as high as a steel string so little risk to your guitar.

But as @Tannin says your biggest challenge will be getting them in the tuners followed by fitting them to the bridge - they’ll most likely have a plain end.

GTC · August 2023

Regarding the bridge fixing - that is pretty easy to get around by tying a large knot on the bridge end of string, perhaps with an old metal ball end cut off from an old steel string set. As for the tuners - all you have to do is tie them in the same manner as you would a classical guitar string on a classical tuner to prevent slipping (particularly on the trebles).

There are some classical guitars which have bridge pins and a steel-strung style headstock and similar methods are used.

Although the choice is limited, there are nylon string sets available with ball ends.

Having said all that, there may be problems with tension and buzzing. It probably won't sound that great either as the the guitar's build would have been designed for heavier steel strings. It shouldn't do any harm though.

CarpeDiem · August 2023

The neck will have been set-up for the tension of steel strings, so I would be wary of fitting nylon strings. Unless it’s a very cheap guitar, I would suggest avoiding the logistical issues and effort involved in fitting strings the guitar wasn’t designed for.

Smellyfingers · August 2023

CarpeDiem said:

The neck will have been set-up for the tension of steel strings, so I would be wary of fitting nylon strings. Unless it’s a very cheap guitar, I would suggest avoiding the logistical issues and effort involved in fitting strings the guitar wasn’t designed for.

I sort of agree that it would’nt work as an everyday solution, and I would certainly need time on my hands to attempt.

But there is an element of curiousity in experimenting with a combination of string tension and radical style fretting to see if it could produce some kind of ‘unique’ sound, that no other steel string acoustic has ever produced.

Collings are the opposite of cheap guitars and this one quite rare all mh example, but unless my experimentation with tension is going to strain the neck or the connecting material between the pins and the bridgeholes, is there any actual risk?

drofluf · August 2023

The tension of nylon strings is about half that of steel so I wouldn't worry about the guitar.

This article looks at it from the perspective of putting steel strings on a classical but you can probably flip the logic

Danny1969 · August 2023

fastonebaz said:

I Want to know if anybody shreds electric guitar with nylon strings.

Well you wouldn't hear anything with it plugged into an amp so it would be very quiet shredding

Whistler · August 2023

Tannin said:

1: They won't do any harm.
2: You are going to have to do something clever to fix the strings in place at the bridge end.
3: You might have to do something even cleverer to get them through the holes in your tuning machines.
4: The tension will be all wrong and it will probably buzz like crazy
5: And it will probably sound like crap.

I am very confident about 1 to 3, fairly confident about 4, and ready to be proven wrong about 5.

You won't break anything, so why not give it a go?

@Tannin , thank you for the helpful post. I use an LP Jr. copy electric guitar with nylon strings as my at home lounge guitar. It is quiet enough that I can play it while my wife gently sleeps.

Tannin's points 1 is correct. Point 2 is true for the OP, @Smellyfingers , as he has probably got standard classical strings. See @GTC 's post to deal with that. I bought ball-ended classical strings so the attach just like electric strings. Point 3 is not true unless you have a PRS with winged locking tuners (I tried it) or something similarly unusual. Point 4 is true. Because classical strings (even high tension strings) have less tension that steel strings, I relieved the truss rod tension a tad and raised the bridge a little and moved the bridge back a bit to correct the intonation with a higher bridge; now mine plays beautifully. Point 5 is subjective, so anyone and everyone can have a valid opinion.

And no, you won't break anything. I intentionally did not widen the nut slots nor do anything to the saddles just in case it didn't work and I could return it to its original state. In fact, it so works for me that I stripped all the electrics out to make it simpler and lighter, although I have the electrics back in place at the moment, not that they work with nylon strings. A piezo bridge plus preamp will add another £700 to the £200 guitar so while that would be a neat thing to do, I am not rich enough.

Smellyfingers · August 2023

drofluf said:

The tension of nylon strings is about half that of steel so I wouldn't worry about the guitar.

This article looks at it from the perspective of putting steel strings on a classical but you can probably flip the logic

Thank you, but I can’t see the link to the article.

ICBM · August 2023

I’ve done it to quite a lot of semi-antique ‘folk’ type guitars which were designed for steel strings, but are too fragile for that much tension now and often with design features more suited to nylon anyway.

You will need to double (or triple) knot the strings or use old ball ends from a set of steel strings to make them work with the bridge pins.

The nut grooves are likely to be too narrow for the plain strings. You can probably get away with just resting the strings on top unless the nut is very tall.

You will need to pull the strings as tight as you can before you tie them to the tuners, or there will be too much wrap on the posts before they come up to pitch, especially as they stretch - which nylons do, a lot.

The action will be too low and it will be very buzzy. You will need a much higher bridge saddle. You will also probably need to slacken the truss rod as the neck will be a bit too straight, although it won’t make as much difference.

Other than that it will work. It may sound OK, but it’s likely to be a bit quiet and might not have a lot of depth.

Smellyfingers · August 2023

Thanks @ICBM Most of that is extremely helpful on the how to specifics.

But there is no way that a retard like myself should think about messing with a £6k Collings saddle or Truss Rod, it’s just a step too far- what were you thinking?

ICBM · August 2023

Smellyfingers said:

But there is no way that a retard like myself should think about messing with a £5k Collings saddle or Truss Rod, it’s just a step too far- what were you thinking?

It won’t actually do any harm, and it’s all reversible - apart from widening the nut slots, which if done correctly will still take steel strings - although I certainly wouldn’t advise doing it unless you want to keep the guitar like that.

But yes, it might be simpler just to say don’t

.

Smellyfingers · August 2023

ICBM said:

Smellyfingers said:

But there is no way that a retard like myself should think about messing with a £5k Collings saddle or Truss Rod, it’s just a step too far- what were you thinking?

It won’t actually do any harm, and it’s all reversible - apart from widening the nut slots, which if done correctly will still take steel strings - although I certainly wouldn’t advise doing it unless you want to keep the guitar like that.

But yes, it might be simpler just to say don’t .

Thanks - I did wonder if adjusting the truss rod and saddle on a high end acoustic is reversible in a similar way that adjusting the steering column in a Bentley is for qualified mechanics, but not by the lumpen plebs who drive them.

drofluf · August 2023

Smellyfingers said:

drofluf said:

The tension of nylon strings is about half that of steel so I wouldn't worry about the guitar.

This article looks at it from the perspective of putting steel strings on a classical but you can probably flip the logic

Thank you, but I can’t see the link to the article.

That's down to inate stupidity on my part

4-reasons-why-you-cant-swap-nylon-and-steel-string

Whistler · August 2023

Acoustic guitars usually have a whitish saddle which is an insert into a dark hardwood bridge. Just buy a spare, taller saddle so that the Collings original is there for when you decide to return to normal. I found that the nut works fine without filing; depending on the nut and the angle of the headstock you will soon discover whether any strings pop out or not.

Soupman · August 2023

@Smellyfingers nylon strings on a Collings?

'Why' is the question I'd be asking, not 'how'!
Would you run an Aston Martin on tractor deisel?
Best of luck with it, but if it was me I'd fit steel strings & give the Savarez nylons to someone with a guitar built for them.

ICBM · August 2023

Ah, I remember now... you're inspired by my little Florida charity shop guitar

.

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/9816201502798af37f5829e99744b5489b639f20487fe70ddc

In truth, it doesn't sound as good as it looks, and the main reason it's playable with nylons is because it definitely wouldn't be (apart from for slide) with steels now - the action is 4 to 4.5mm at the 12th fret, and that's with the bridge saddle not much higher than the wood!

As a means of making a 70-year-old plywood guitar a bit better than just an ornament - great.

As a sensible thing to do with a high-end steel string guitar - not so much.

The correct solution to your problem is of course to buy a classical guitar

.

Smellyfingers · August 2023

Soupman said:

@Smellyfingers nylon strings on a Collings?
'Why' is the question I'd be asking, not 'how'!
Would you run an Aston Martin on tractor deisel?
Best of luck with it, but if it was me I'd fit steel strings & give the Savarez nylons to someone with a guitar built for them.

It may sound stupid but I have a feeling that if I can work out how to put two very expensive but different things together I might get an even more different and finer thing that no-else has experienced before.

The Collings currently with steel strings sounds very much like the all the other Collings I have tried, albeit with a slightly darker tone.

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

Nylon are a waste of time.

If you want something different try these:

https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings-c1/string-sets-c865/acoustic-guitar-c33/savarez-1610mf-argentine-new-concept-ball-end-guitar-strings-11-46-light-tension-p2337

Tannin · August 2023

ICBM said:

The correct solution to your problem is of course to buy a classical guitar .

Ahhh .. the notorious "correct solution". A way to penury nearly every time. I'll give you a different example. Mrs Tannin bought a movie on DVD at the op shop the other day. It cost her the princely sum of $1. Got it home and it turned out to be a Blu-ray. We didn't have a Blu-ray player, so the "correct solution" was for me to drive into Hobart ($20 worth of petrol) and buy one ($200). Then we discovered that the stupid damn Blu-ray player didn't have an audio out socket. So I had to drive in to Kingston ($10 petrol) and buy an HDMI audio break out box ($80).

Then we watched the movie (which was no better than mediocre).

So the "correct solution" to avoid wasting Mrs Tannin's $1 was for me to spend another $310.

Be careful out there @Smellyfingers. Be very careful.

maltingsaudio · August 2023

@Tannin in a similar vein I think modern technology has broken the spirit of invention and curiosity. Befor the web @Smellyfingers would have just done the job and found out if it worked or not. Now we have the web and can ask the question, he will miss out on the wonder of will it or won’t it actual journey. Mind you will save him a couple of Bob!

Warblington · August 2023

fastonebaz said:

I Want to know if anybody shreds electric guitar with nylon strings.

Check out Ben Woods on You Tube. He’s a flamenco guitarist and has come up with his electric body , nylon string guitar, the Nylocaster. If a nylon string guitar can be accused of being shredded, he’s your man.

Warblington · August 2023

Warblington said:

fastonebaz said:

I Want to know if anybody shreds electric guitar with nylon strings.

Check out Ben Woods on You Tube. He’s a flamenco guitarist and has come up with his electric body , nylon string guitar, the Nylocaster. If a nylon string guitar can be accused of being shredded, he’s your man.

Sadly I have just discovered that Ben Woods passed away last year from cancer.I had no idea.I've watched his videos countless times and would recommend him to any aspiring flamenco player who likes to go off piste.An amazing player.RIP .

JonnyBgoode · August 2023

Warblington said:
Sadly I have just discovered that Ben Woods passed away last year from cancer.I had no idea. I've watched his videos countless times and would recommend him to any aspiring flamenco player who likes to go off piste.An amazing player.RIP .

I was about to suggest Ben for nylon-on-electric guitar shred but thought I'd check the thread first. It was very sad, he was only about 40 odd and a nice guy, always helpful with advice and as you say very happy to go off piste and do all sorts of things. he was doing the 'flamenco meets metal' thing on nylon guitar years before Rod and Gab came to fame. He composer some really interesting stuff.

earwighoney · August 2023

Warblington said:

Warblington said:

fastonebaz said:

I Want to know if anybody shreds electric guitar with nylon strings.

Check out Ben Woods on You Tube. He’s a flamenco guitarist and has come up with his electric body , nylon string guitar, the Nylocaster. If a nylon string guitar can be accused of being shredded, he’s your man.

Sadly I have just discovered that Ben Woods passed away last year from cancer.I had no idea.I've watched his videos countless times and would recommend him to any aspiring flamenco player who likes to go off piste.An amazing player.RIP .

I post on a flamenco forum and Ben was a friend a of few of the guys there. He was supposed to be a great guy. A real loss for sure.

BillDL · August 2023

Your main issue with nylon strings on a guitar that's built and braced for the higher tension of steel strings is that the nylon strings most likely won't be able to drive the stiffer soundboard enough to give an acceptable sound at a volume that's satisfactory. It will most likely sound like one of those very shallow bodied electro-acoustic nylon string guitars that are really intended to be played amplified. On a steel-string guitar with an under-saddle piezo pickup it would probably just sound very much like any classical guitar with piezo transducer when amplified.

Like some others on here did out of curiosity or ignorance when younger, I tried steel strings on a guitar built for nylon strings. It sounded great for about 10 minutes until it started creaking and the bridge ripped off taking a chunk of top with it, and simultaneously the top in front of the soundhole crumpled inwards. Fortunately it was a cheap plywood guitar that was pretty rubbish anyway, hence the experiment.

ICBM · August 2023

BillDL said:

Like some others on here did out of curiosity or ignorance when younger, I tried steel strings on a guitar built for nylon strings. It sounded great for about 10 minutes until it started creaking and the bridge ripped off taking a chunk of top with it, and simultaneously the top in front of the soundhole crumpled inwards. Fortunately it was a cheap plywood guitar that was pretty rubbish anyway, hence the experiment.

I obviously had a far superior instrument to yours… mine lasted about a week

. Every morning I found that the tuning had gone very flat, but thought it was just the new strings stretching - I didn’t then know that steel strings really don’t - until on the last day it was about an octave flat, which puzzled me but I started to tune it up anyway. I got about halfway and there was an odd crackling noise which lasted about thirty seconds, then a loud bang as the bridge ripped the top layer of ply off the body as far as the soundhole… the noise was the plywood tearing apart internally.

I actually made a ‘solid classical’ with the neck and bridge, and a piece of Parana pine the right size to draw around the old body on - I’d seen Mark Knopfler playing his Gibson Chet Atkins nylon-string. Not knowing anything about piezo pickups I fitted a mic capsule under the bridge - it all worked surprisingly well. Sadly, I later destroyed it trying to make a bass out of the body.

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Can you put nylon classical strings on a steel string guitar?

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