'Amp-like drives'

Sassafras · August 2023

I don't like amp druve, it;s too limiting and sounds too compressed when you turn it up.
Much easier to use different pedals.
Sounds good enough to the audience.

ICBM · August 2023

monquixote said:

I think the whole "THIS PEDAL SOUNDS LIKE A HUNDRED SCREAMING PLEXIS" hype about pedals is really silly especially as it tends to be used for amp in a box pedals, but also for things like TS pedals which absolutely don't and are intended to push an amp rather than generate all the tone themselves.

[Pedant

] - the Tube Screamer, or more accurately the Boss OD-1 which it was derived from, was in fact *intended* to sound like an overdriven valve amp into a clean amp (probably solid-state). It’s pretty poor for that, and the fact that it sounds great into an already overdriven valve amp is purely a happy accident...

monquixote said:

That said I've never had any channel switcher that I was completely happy with on both channels and when you have to have a spanky Fender clean and also a convincing high gain shred sound an amp in a box is the only way to do it unless you go with modelling which these days I would if I really needed a lot of flexibility.

I have - the Mesa Trem-o-verb. But most people wouldn’t be completely happy, because both channels sound like a Trem-o-verb and not like a Fender and a Marshall.

Actually the Peavey Transtube Bandit/Studio Pro does it as well, maybe even better.

monquixote said:

With most amps I find that some combination of amp + pedal always sounds better.

Exactly - I only use amp distortion for crunch, I always prefer to add a pedal for lead - it’s more edgy and cuts through better. I never use the pedal to push the amp harder, I set it to give an alternative crunch sound into the clean channel, then the same pedal into the drive channel gives the solo sound.

The only valve amps I’ve ever been able to get a usable solo sound out of without a pedal are Mesa/Boogies with the graphic EQ on the lead sound... which is kind-of with a pedal, if you think about it

(the GEQ circuit is solid-state).

Reverend · August 2023

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I've never ever heard an amp drive alone that comes close to the sound of jcm800 pushed with and SD1, TS or original Guvnor.

TimmyO · August 2023

Reverend said:

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I've never ever heard an amp drive alone that comes close to the sound of jcm800 pushed with and SD1, TS or original Guvnor.

Doesn't Mr Gower somewhat famously admit that that's the sound that his popular amp mods seek to achieve - some people just won't countenance the pedal approach and are happier to pay more (and a fair rate no doubt given the nature of work required to achieve it in the amp circuit) to have it be just the amp that gets the sound

TimmyO · August 2023

As to the original comment about amp-like drives - it quickly morphed to amp emulation which is different (imo)

I think amp-like just means avoiding the extremes of EQ lopping-off that many pedals rely on for their effect.

A Rat shedding low end, a TS shedding top and bottom - not "amp like" for the most part, but brilliant for what they can do. Just different.

monquixote · August 2023

TimmyO said:

Reverend said:

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I've never ever heard an amp drive alone that comes close to the sound of jcm800 pushed with and SD1, TS or original Guvnor.

Doesn't Mr Gower somewhat famously admit that that's the sound that his popular amp mods seek to achieve - some people just won't countenance the pedal approach and are happier to pay more (and a fair rate no doubt given the nature of work required to achieve it in the amp circuit) to have it be just the amp that gets the sound

The Ultra green on the DSL sounds so close to the crunch channel with an SD-1 that it's really clear that's what they were going for.

The real thing still sounds better.

Hattigol · August 2023

monquixote said:

TimmyO said:

Reverend said:

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I've never ever heard an amp drive alone that comes close to the sound of jcm800 pushed with and SD1, TS or original Guvnor.

Doesn't Mr Gower somewhat famously admit that that's the sound that his popular amp mods seek to achieve - some people just won't countenance the pedal approach and are happier to pay more (and a fair rate no doubt given the nature of work required to achieve it in the amp circuit) to have it be just the amp that gets the sound

The Ultra green on the DSL sounds so close to the crunch channel with an SD-1 that it's really clear that's what they were going for.

The real thing still sounds better.

I'm confused - the real thing is the pedal that gives 'amp-like' drive?

monquixote · August 2023

Hattigol said:

monquixote said:

TimmyO said:

Reverend said:

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I've never ever heard an amp drive alone that comes close to the sound of jcm800 pushed with and SD1, TS or original Guvnor.

Doesn't Mr Gower somewhat famously admit that that's the sound that his popular amp mods seek to achieve - some people just won't countenance the pedal approach and are happier to pay more (and a fair rate no doubt given the nature of work required to achieve it in the amp circuit) to have it be just the amp that gets the sound

The Ultra green on the DSL sounds so close to the crunch channel with an SD-1 that it's really clear that's what they were going for.

The real thing still sounds better.

I'm confused - the real thing is the pedal that gives 'amp-like' drive?

The real thing is sd-1 into JCM800 as far as the classic metal sound.

SpoonMan · August 2023

A maxed fuzz face into a cooking amp is cool, or a treble booster.

I prefer stacking pedals and amp drive to just one or the other. Much more aggressive and bite.

soma1975 · August 2023

Marshall in a Box (MIAB) pedals all seem to chase a particular tone that is the MIAB sound as opposed to sounding like a Marshall amp.

I went through about 20-something of them before just getting a Marshall. In a box. No pedal sounds anything like it.

But a Marshall with a boost or a fuzz is *chef's kiss*

Yorkie · August 2023

soma1975 said:

I went through about 20-something of them before just getting a Marshall. In a box. No pedal sounds anything like it.

Same here. The only way I managed to make my MIABs sound like a Marshall was to run them into my Marshall; I guess it kind of gives you another channel if you have a one-channel amp? Not my case anyway

GoldenEraGuitars · August 2023

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

I’d rather have an amp than a pedal. This is coming from a non gigging, no recording musician though. The only pedal I have played that sounds like the amp it’s based on is the Ramble FX Marvel Drive (vintage Marshall).

But instead of channel switching I’d be happy just to have 2 amps and A/B them to taste.

ICBM · August 2023

The only MIAB pedal I've heard which really sounds like a Marshall when it's going into a clean non-Marshall (eg Fender) amp is...

The Marshall GV-2 Guv'nor Plus.

The key is the 'Deep' control - which uses a completely different, extra part of the circuit than the gain and standard EQ section - and acts more like a "4x12 simulator" than a normal tone control.

The original Guv'nor is more like an extra channel into a Marshall-type amp.

Alexlotl · August 2023

Not really tackling the OPs point, but the BD2 circuit is this for me, a Keeley SPM in my case. Sounds, and more crucially responds to my pickups and playing, just like my TM Princeton cranked.

There was a thread about “feel” recently. I didn’t get the feel argument until I tried the SPM. The sound wasn’t wildly different from my Timmy, but the responsiveness and feel was. It felt like I had more control over my tone without having to touch the (pedal) knobs.

Dave_Mc · August 2023

Yorkie said:

soma1975 said:

I went through about 20-something of them before just getting a Marshall. In a box. No pedal sounds anything like it.

Same here. The only way I managed to make my MIABs sound like a Marshall was to run them into my Marshall; I guess it kind of gives you another channel if you have a one-channel amp? Not my case anyway

Yeah. It always annoys me when a MIAB is demoed into a Marshall amp. I guess some players might have a Plexi or similar and want a pedal to get that sound at lower volumes, but you've got to figure the more common use (citation needed!) is for someone who doesn't have a Marshall amp and wants the sound of a Marshall with their current non-Marshall amp. Obviously trying it into a Marshall is a valid way to do it, and as I said, I guess some players might do it... but it does feel a bit like cheating, at least in a demo video. It's gonna sound fairly Marshally into a Marshall... so will most dirt pedals!

ICBM · August 2023

Dave_Mc said:

I guess some players might have a Plexi or similar and want a pedal to get that sound at lower volumes, but you've got to figure the more common use (citation needed!) is for someone who doesn't have a Marshall amp and wants the sound of a Marshall with their current non-Marshall amp. Obviously trying it into a Marshall is a valid way to do it, and as I said, I guess some players might do it... but it does feel a bit like cheating, at least in a demo video. It's gonna sound fairly Marshally into a Marshall... so will most dirt pedals!

For me this is the classic use of a Marshall MkI Guv’nor - famously, Gary Moore used one into a JTM45 for Still Got The Blues… but contrary to what you might expect, the amp was set clean, and the distortion you hear is the pedal. It still sounds like an overdriven Marshall.

monquixote · August 2023

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

I guess some players might have a Plexi or similar and want a pedal to get that sound at lower volumes, but you've got to figure the more common use (citation needed!) is for someone who doesn't have a Marshall amp and wants the sound of a Marshall with their current non-Marshall amp. Obviously trying it into a Marshall is a valid way to do it, and as I said, I guess some players might do it... but it does feel a bit like cheating, at least in a demo video. It's gonna sound fairly Marshally into a Marshall... so will most dirt pedals!

For me this is the classic use of a Marshall MkI Guv’nor - famously, Gary Moore used one into a JTM45 for Still Got The Blues… but contrary to what you might expect, the amp was set clean, and the distortion you hear is the pedal. It still sounds like an overdriven Marshall.

Indeed when people are disappointed with MIAB pedals into Fenders you have to consider what they were designed for.

The Box of Rock for example was designed to sound like a driven JTM45 into a clean JTM45 e.g. make the 1 channel amp 2 channel.

It doesn't do that into a Deluxe Reverb.

Exorcist · August 2023

I have amps with great drive (Bogner, Marshall, Laney, Egnator) but I also like having pedals through the same amps for different flavours of dirt. If you have one sounds and want to always sound the same fine - but why limit yourself? (FWIW my favourite ever tone was a homemade Russian type Muff through the clean channel (master pretty high) of an Laney AOR. That was Godly IMHO.

Dave_Mc · August 2023

ICBM said:
For me this is the classic use of a Marshall MkI Guv’nor - famously, Gary Moore used one into a JTM45 for Still Got The Blues… but contrary to what you might expect, the amp was set clean, and the distortion you hear is the pedal. It still sounds like an overdriven Marshall.

Oh yeah absolutely, but with more modern stuff it's usually designed (I think?) to turn non-Marshall amps into Marshalls.

Or am I completely wrong?

monquixote said:
Indeed when people are disappointed with MIAB pedals into Fenders you have to consider what they were designed for.

The Box of Rock for example was designed to sound like a driven JTM45 into a clean JTM45 e.g. make the 1 channel amp 2 channel.

It doesn't do that into a Deluxe Reverb.

I think I've heard that before. That being said, in the manual on the ZVex website, it says, "The Box of Rock™ is Z.Vex Effect’s first “distortion” pedal, highly specialized to simulate the “everything on 10” sound of a classic Marshall® JTM45 non-master-volume amplifier.You may use the Box of Rock™ effectively with many different amplifiers."

I mean... I think they could be a bit clearer. ("They" being everyone who makes pedals, not just ZVex.)

Danny1969 · August 2023

Last night at rehearsal I used by Bugera BC30 for the first time in years. I've got some nice drives on my pedal board but the drive in that amp really put a smile my face .... there's something about amp drive in a valve amp that's just so good.

Shame it's actually too heavy to ever gig, I might convert it into a head.

ICBM · August 2023

Dave_Mc said:

Oh yeah absolutely, but with more modern stuff it's usually designed (I think?) to turn non-Marshall amps into Marshalls.

Or am I completely wrong?

I think you're right, but it doesn't really work that well unless the pedal is more of a 'full preamp' type of thing - the Guv'nor Plus gets close, but the difference in the power section and speakers of something like a Fender Twin makes it very difficult to get a really convincing Marshall sound with one no matter what the pedal. Good enough for an approximation in a band mix where the guitar sound isn't the main focus, but not where it is. ie fine for a typical covers band, but you won't find a metal band with a Twin and a MIAB

. (Even if their stage backline is empty cabs!)

Power_Freak · August 2023

The real question is: why would anybody want the marshall sound in the first place?

The success of "amp in a box" pedals is quite dependent on the amp you plug it into though. It's all about the interaction of the gain stages (and where/how you EQ in that chain). If you have something like an early octal-pre-amped tweed/valco style amp - it kind of doesn't matter what drive pedal you run into it, you'll get that wild octal character because it can't cope. Hence the whole "pedal platform" styled amps.

Also worth keeping in mind most "amp in a box" style pedals are just that - a pedal styled circuit. It's rare to find one that's truly a pre-amp, hence why they tend to sound a bit crappy into a flat response power-amp/speaker. Something like a Kingsley or an Ethos (which are more pre-amps that can be used as pedals) can be used in this sort of situation.

I'd also add: I've yet to find a channel switching amp that I've actually liked, I understand the promise but to me shaping with a dirt pedal is much better.

Reverend · August 2023

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Oh yeah absolutely, but with more modern stuff it's usually designed (I think?) to turn non-Marshall amps into Marshalls.

Or am I completely wrong?

I think you're right, but it doesn't really work that well unless the pedal is more of a 'full preamp' type of thing - the Guv'nor Plus gets close, but the difference in the power section and speakers of something like a Fender Twin makes it very difficult to get a really convincing Marshall sound with one no matter what the pedal. Good enough for an approximation in a band mix where the guitar sound isn't the main focus, but not where it is. ie fine for a typical covers band, but you won't find a metal band with a Twin and a MIAB . (Even if their stage backline is empty cabs!)

Fender Twin and a DS1 does work for metal however

ICBM · August 2023

Reverend said:

Fender Twin and a DS1 does work for metal however

I guessed when I posted it that I didn't know about a wide enough range of metal that someone would correct me

.

Dave_Mc · August 2023

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Oh yeah absolutely, but with more modern stuff it's usually designed (I think?) to turn non-Marshall amps into Marshalls.

Or am I completely wrong?

I think you're right, but it doesn't really work that well unless the pedal is more of a 'full preamp' type of thing - the Guv'nor Plus gets close, but the difference in the power section and speakers of something like a Fender Twin makes it very difficult to get a really convincing Marshall sound with one no matter what the pedal. Good enough for an approximation in a band mix where the guitar sound isn't the main focus, but not where it is. ie fine for a typical covers band, but you won't find a metal band with a Twin and a MIAB . (Even if their stage backline is empty cabs!)

I agree with you, I think it's very difficult to make a pedal sound right when the entire rest of the amp is working against it! Even if you've got the "right" amp, changing speakers/cabs can make it not sound right, so it's going to be even worse if the entire amp is "wrong".

Maybe I'm being a bit unfair, but I'm basically making the point that most amp-in-a-box pedal manufacturers seem to advertise their pedals as being suitable for where the guitar sound is the main focus, when they're arguably more suitable for the cover band thing. At least if the amp being used is completely different from the amp the pedal is trying to emulate.

rze99 · August 2023

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

I guess some players might have a Plexi or similar and want a pedal to get that sound at lower volumes, but you've got to figure the more common use (citation needed!) is for someone who doesn't have a Marshall amp and wants the sound of a Marshall with their current non-Marshall amp. Obviously trying it into a Marshall is a valid way to do it, and as I said, I guess some players might do it... but it does feel a bit like cheating, at least in a demo video. It's gonna sound fairly Marshally into a Marshall... so will most dirt pedals!

For me this is the classic use of a Marshall MkI Guv’nor - famously, Gary Moore used one into a JTM45 for Still Got The Blues… but contrary to what you might expect, the amp was set clean, and the distortion you hear is the pedal. It still sounds like an overdriven Marshall.

Yes that’s contrary to my expectations. Do you have any evidence in support of your post?

ICBM · August 2023

rze99 said:

Yes that’s contrary to my expectations. Do you have any evidence in support of your post?

https://www.guitarworld.com/artists/the-secrets-behind-gary-moores-tone-on-still-got-the-blues#:~:text=To%20achieve%20the%20high%2Dgain,source%20of%20the%20tone's%20distortion.

I don’t know the original source for that article, but it sounds like that to me - there’s a hardness to it that you don’t get if you overdrive a JTM45.

Elsewhere you can find that his cab had EVs not Greenbacks too - that also makes sense, a lot of pro musicians were doing that at the time (Clapton, Knopfler for two)... their roadies must have hated them

.

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

^^^ sounds right to me too. Even a SS Rectified metal panel plexi is not terribly focused at high volumes, it definitely doesn't have that raspy gainy edge you hear on Still got the blues and a JTM45 is usually less so.

Clean in this instance is probably up at 5, which is absolutely Not an 80's jazz chorus "clean"

NelsonP · August 2023

So I've just bought a Boss DS1. Because I have a 2 channel mesa .50 caliber, which has the exact same preamp that kurt cobain used on Nevermind, but the dirty channel sounds nothing like it.

The clean channel with a DS1 is right on the money though.

So there I go, contradicting myself. Or maybe I've just learned from the wise people of this forum :-)

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'Amp-like drives'

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