'Amp-like drives'

NelsonP · August 2023

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

Hattigol · August 2023

The strangest part of it is that most people will use these through an amp, rather than a flat response speaker. So you get say a MIAB through a Fender, which surely defeats the point?

rze99 · August 2023

I rarely use dirt pedals except for solos.

With most of my amps I use an attenuator so that I get the early break up crunch of the output valves. I also use the master volume gain on my 70s JMP and Genz Benz Black Pearl. They all sound better than pedals to me.

A dirt pedal on top of natural amp dirt is much better than clean and produces a thicker richer more harmonically complex dirty tone.

AntonHunter · August 2023

So if you've got a Fender amp and want an approximation of a Marshall drive tone for a couple of tunes, just buy a 2nd amp?

Supportact · August 2023

I think there are too nany variables to decide which is best. I've heard people get great tones from pedals or amps, or modellers. Also people have different requirements for different sounds depending on their gig. I could use a simpler set up than I do but I like all the different options.

Petepassion · August 2023

The best sounds I have had have been a Marshall superlead or my AC50. Both have no gain control, so I always used an attenuator for that classic sound.

Every amp I’ve owned with a gain control, including Marshall and Friedman have still sounded better pushing the power amp with an attenuator. But then there’s no headroom left for volume boost solo’s, so then you need a re-amper to accommodate this.
I can now match the sound I used to get by stacking the appropriate pedals into a decent clean valve amp.
I find it easier that way, just one pedal board and two leads. When setting up on stage I prefer simplicity, especially if I can get the right sounds.

Danny1969 · August 2023

I think it depends on the style of music. When playing classic rock or metal I much prefer overdrive from an amp and only use time based effects in the loop. I started out with an MXR distortion + and a Hi Watt 100 but soon got a Marshall and once I did I never used a drive pedal for the next 35 years.
For wedding / corporate gigs which I do a lot of now and can require quite a few different tones I prefer some pedals and a clean amp.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

So I use a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb for the right clean base sound, and use an Origin RD Compact (most of the time) to push that towards grindy Marshall/Voxy sounds when I need them. And frankly noone (to my knowledge) makes an amp that sounds like a DR with a Benson Preamp in front either, so until they do that's where I'm at

I've had plenty of folks tell me my gear sounds ace, so it's not impossible! :P

NickB · August 2023

Lovepedal Les Lius into the front of my Rift Blonde Bassman sounds amazing... I have tried the overdrive channel on my VHT D-50 but I don't like the mids for rhythm work so need a transparent O/d for that. It's more of a Solo tone.

ICBM · August 2023

A lot of people find it difficult to get both the clean and dirty sounds they want out of a channel-switching amp - usually, it's two different varieties of the same amp type - and a 'AIAB' pedal into a clean amp can give more radically different results.

I use my MIAB (Mesa In A Box

) pedal so I can play through any available amp and get a good approximation of what I'm used to. It means I don't need to take my own amp if there's something usable at the practice room/venue, and is a backup so I don't need to take a spare even if I am using my own amp - it can go direct to the PA if necessary.

So much so that in the end I sold my enormously heavy channel-switching Mesa and now I just use a smaller single-channel one and the pedal.

digitalscream · August 2023

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that? Then you have real amp-drive, which is better, right?

In my experience pedals hardly ever sound as good. I reckon all you need is a 2 channel amp, one overdrive pedal to push the clean channel and an eq or volume pedal to put in the loop for a solo boost.

Thoughts?

The problem is that getting all your drive from an amp almost always involves compromise. A lot of dual-channel amps have shared EQ, for example, so (unless there's a magical confluence of sound at exactly the setting you like), at least one of those tones won't be ideal.

The Victory Kraken is a prime example of this. Gain I is probably the best chunky rhythm channel I've ever encountered. However, at any settings that make Gain I sound good, Gain II is horrible and scratchy for lead work (to my ears).

Jet City amps are the opposite - at least the ones I've owned - where I can get the ideal sound from both channels. The problems are a) they're not easy to control from the master volume at home levels, and b) they're basically unobtainium now, so I've gone to the next best thing, the Bogner Red pedal with a ThorpyFX Heavy Water for boost when I'm feeling spicy.

Run into a clean amp it sounds exactly the way I want it to at live volumes, and run into an HT-1 I get exactly what I want at home volumes.

dangriffiths · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

The 3rd Power Kitchen Sink 6vel does those three amps in one and does it well. Not heavy but is pricey

stickyfiddle · August 2023

dangriffiths said:

stickyfiddle said:

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

The 3rd Power Kitchen Sink 6vel does those three amps in one and does it well. Not heavy but is pricey

So it does. But the head weighs 40% more than my whole amp and the price is $5k...

rze99 · August 2023

dangriffiths said:

stickyfiddle said:

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

The 3rd Power Kitchen Sink 6vel does those three amps in one and does it well. Not heavy but is pricey

@stickyfiddle ;I have the Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 and I think that amp gets pretty convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox with the right settings & eq applied. I have original Fender Marshall and Vox amps so I can use side by side reference tones.

Yes it's v heavy, but not that pricey if you can find one used. Great amp and the one I use most live in the band with an extension cab too.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

rze99 said:

dangriffiths said:

stickyfiddle said:

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

The 3rd Power Kitchen Sink 6vel does those three amps in one and does it well. Not heavy but is pricey

@stickyfiddle ;;I have the Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 and I think that amp gets pretty convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox with the right settings & eq applied. I have original Fender Marshall and Vox amps so I can use side by side reference tones.

Yes it's v heavy, but not that pricey if you can find one used. Great amp and the one I use most live in the band with an extension cab too.

But it has a shared EQ and isn't channel switching, so while the amp can make a load of different noises it can't do them all within one song at a gig... I have no doubt it sounds great - I've only ever heard good things about it, but it's not a replacement for my rig at all. I bet it sounds great with a Revival Drive in front

:P

Lewy · August 2023

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that?

Because then when you go off it you've got to go amp shopping instead of just pedal shopping.

thecolourbox · August 2023

I'm not an expert by any stretch but I think usually people will use an amp in a box to get a sound that is different than their amp. I don't think people typically use a Vox in a Box with their AC30 (that said, I used to have an AC4 and I did use a Vox in a Box with it and it sounded much nicer than turning the amp up).

I doubt there is anybody goosing their real Dumble with a Zen Drive

Generally when I use an amp, I need it to do a loud clean and quieter overdrive, amp style overdrives allow that pretty easily especially using my old AC4 technique above - also allows a different EQ while using the drive sound than when using the clean which you can't usually do with a two channel amp unless it's one with two sets of controls.

Plus it's cheaper

stickyfiddle · August 2023

thecolourbox said:

I'm not an expert by any stretch but I think usually people will use an amp in a box to get a sound that is different than their amp.

To be fair I have used my RD Compact set for Revolver-era Vox sounds into my Badcat just because the BadCat doesn't quite get there by itself. But yeah generally that's the point - people aren't using MIABs into Marshalls, they're using them into other stuff

p90fool · August 2023

NelsonP said:

So many drives refer to being 'amp-like' in their response, MIAB, Dumble-style overdrive, designed to sounds like a pushed Fender amp, tube screamer etc.

So, why not just get a master volume amp with 2 channels and just use that?

I've never had any luck with channel switching amps live tbh, I never seem to have any idea in the heat of moment whether hitting that footswitch is going to make my guitar disappear or take everyone's heads off.

Using one channel and boosting or cutting it seems way more reliable to me.

Amp drive is not always better anyway, plenty of amps just sound lifeless and bland until you hit them with a pedal or two.

rze99 · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

rze99 said:

dangriffiths said:

stickyfiddle said:

Nobody makes an amp that sounds *and feels* convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox in one box. And if they did it would be huge and heavy and expensive.

The 3rd Power Kitchen Sink 6vel does those three amps in one and does it well. Not heavy but is pricey

@stickyfiddle ;;I have the Genz Benz Black Pearl 30 and I think that amp gets pretty convincingly like a Fender, Marshall and Vox with the right settings & eq applied. I have original Fender Marshall and Vox amps so I can use side by side reference tones.

Yes it's v heavy, but not that pricey if you can find one used. Great amp and the one I use most live in the band with an extension cab too.

But it has a shared EQ and isn't channel switching, so while the amp can make a load of different noises it can't do them all within one song at a gig... I have no doubt it sounds great - I've only ever heard good things about it, but it's not a replacement for my rig at all. I bet it sounds great with a Revival Drive in front :P

All true. I play 95 per cent original material so just get variations on “my sound”.

Good luck with your hunt.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Hey I'm not hunting; I'm very happy with my setup. Just answering OP's "Why" question

Keefy · August 2023

Sometimes I want a clean sound, sometimes slightly dirty, sometimes amp-like drive, sometimes drive-pedal-type drive, sometimes fuzz. I’ve had channel-switching amps but found I can best achieve the sounds I want from a single channel amp with various pedals.

jeztone2 · August 2023

Keefy said:

Sometimes I want a clean sound, sometimes slightly dirty, sometimes amp-like drive, sometimes drive-pedal-type drive, sometimes fuzz. I’ve had channel-switching amps but found I can best achieve the sounds I want from a single channel amp with various pedals.

That’s what I did. Also trying to do a multi band bill with a channel switching amp on four cable method became a massive pain in the arse after a while. Of the three gigs I’ve played this year. I’ve only used my own amp for one of them. That’s your other consideration. Some venues don’t want you to use your amp.

Keefy · August 2023

Also the ongoing cost of a pedal GAS merry-go-round tends to be cheaper than doing the same thing with amps…

monquixote · August 2023

I think the whole "THIS PEDAL SOUNDS LIKE A HUNDRED SCREAMING PLEXIS" hype about pedals is really silly especially as it tends to be used for amp in a box pedals, but also for things like TS pedals which absolutely don't and are intended to push an amp rather than generate all the tone themselves.

There is also the fact that solid state Marshall preamp -> Fender Preamp -> Fender Power Amp -> Jensen
is never going to sound like Marshall Preamp -> Marshall Poweramp -> Greenback
whatever you do.

That said I've never had any channel switcher that I was completely happy with on both channels and when you have to have a spanky Fender clean and also a convincing high gain shred sound an amp in a box is the only way to do it unless you go with modelling which these days I would if I really needed a lot of flexibility.

With most amps I find that some combination of amp + pedal always sounds better. JCM800 good, JCM800 + SD-1 = heaven.
Plexi Good, Plexi + Treble booster / Klone = heaven

I've tried loads of setups and amp just at the edge of the clipping point + overdrive pedal + heavier distortion pedal (if required) gives me 4 different sounds and can cover just about any gig that isn't metal.

NelsonP · August 2023

monquixote said:

I think the whole "THIS PEDAL SOUNDS LIKE A HUNDRED SCREAMING PLEXIS" hype about pedals is really silly especially as it tends to be used for amp in a box pedals, but also for things like TS pedals which absolutely don't and are intended to push an amp rather than generate all the tone themselves.

There is also the fact that solid state Marshall preamp -> Fender Preamp -> Fender Power Amp -> Jensen
is never going to sound like Marshall Preamp -> Marshall Poweramp -> Greenback
whatever you do.

That said I've never had any channel switcher that I was completely happy with on both channels and when you have to have a spanky Fender clean and also a convincing high gain shred sound an amp in a box is the only way to do it unless you go with modelling which these days I would if I really needed a lot of flexibility.

With most amps I find that some combination of amp + pedal always sounds better. JCM800 good, JCM800 + SD-1 = heaven.
Plexi Good, Plexi + Treble booster / Klone = heaven

I've tried loads of setups and amp just at the edge of the clipping point + overdrive pedal + heavier distortion pedal (if required) gives me 4 different sounds and can cover just about any gig that isn't metal.

What input would you use on the JCM800 + SD1? Can you get clean and driven tines that way?

slacker · August 2023

Amp drive is actually two distinct different things and a lot of stuff in the middle a mesa boohie drive channel is different to a bass man on full.and amp like pedals sound different to one's designed to work with the amp, then there's a fuzz face and a guitar volume.

I use a vox type amp on the edge of breakup and pedals. I can hit the strings harder to get more gain without a pedal. I can use a pedal and turn down for cleans.

Then there's stacking pedals. I've got good gain sounds by stacking three clean boosts or two fizzes or running a k or ts pedal into a bb pedal.

There's loads of ways of making it work without using multiple amps and a gig rig which is fun.

monquixote · August 2023

NelsonP said:

monquixote said:

I think the whole "THIS PEDAL SOUNDS LIKE A HUNDRED SCREAMING PLEXIS" hype about pedals is really silly especially as it tends to be used for amp in a box pedals, but also for things like TS pedals which absolutely don't and are intended to push an amp rather than generate all the tone themselves.

There is also the fact that solid state Marshall preamp -> Fender Preamp -> Fender Power Amp -> Jensen
is never going to sound like Marshall Preamp -> Marshall Poweramp -> Greenback
whatever you do.

That said I've never had any channel switcher that I was completely happy with on both channels and when you have to have a spanky Fender clean and also a convincing high gain shred sound an amp in a box is the only way to do it unless you go with modelling which these days I would if I really needed a lot of flexibility.

With most amps I find that some combination of amp + pedal always sounds better. JCM800 good, JCM800 + SD-1 = heaven.
Plexi Good, Plexi + Treble booster / Klone = heaven

I've tried loads of setups and amp just at the edge of the clipping point + overdrive pedal + heavier distortion pedal (if required) gives me 4 different sounds and can cover just about any gig that isn't metal.

What input would you use on the JCM800 + SD1? Can you get clean and driven tines that way?

Yeah you can. The cleans on a JCM are actually not half bad, it's just people don't usually use them that way.

Mostly people use the SD-1 as an always on tone shaper.

NelsonP · August 2023

monquixote said:

NelsonP said:

monquixote said:

I think the whole "THIS PEDAL SOUNDS LIKE A HUNDRED SCREAMING PLEXIS" hype about pedals is really silly especially as it tends to be used for amp in a box pedals, but also for things like TS pedals which absolutely don't and are intended to push an amp rather than generate all the tone themselves.

There is also the fact that solid state Marshall preamp -> Fender Preamp -> Fender Power Amp -> Jensen
is never going to sound like Marshall Preamp -> Marshall Poweramp -> Greenback
whatever you do.

That said I've never had any channel switcher that I was completely happy with on both channels and when you have to have a spanky Fender clean and also a convincing high gain shred sound an amp in a box is the only way to do it unless you go with modelling which these days I would if I really needed a lot of flexibility.

With most amps I find that some combination of amp + pedal always sounds better. JCM800 good, JCM800 + SD-1 = heaven.
Plexi Good, Plexi + Treble booster / Klone = heaven

I've tried loads of setups and amp just at the edge of the clipping point + overdrive pedal + heavier distortion pedal (if required) gives me 4 different sounds and can cover just about any gig that isn't metal.

What input would you use on the JCM800 + SD1? Can you get clean and driven tines that way?

Yeah you can. The cleans on a JCM are actually not half bad, it's just people don't usually use them that way.

Mostly people use the SD-1 as an always on tone shaper.

...into the high channel?

Kebabkid · August 2023

Getting a decent clean sound that has a range of overdrive sounds on tap usually requires a 3-4 channel amp like a H&K Triamp, Custom Audio, Suhr Hedgehog etc which are all loud, heavy and can be expensive amps. Even then, EQ might be shared and so for me, getting a good-sounding clean amp that takes OD pedals well is a better, lighter and more versatile option and your board makes for a transferable rig to backing amps.
The caveat here is if you're lucky to find a good 2 channel amp or even a single channel amp, you can ride the guitar volume to achieve your various sounds.

It is a compromise as you may think you have the best MIAB since sliced bread, then you play through something like a 5150 and realise the feel under fingers, responsiveness and sound are different but fair play to the MIAB/Preamp pedals out there from Wampler, Sinvertek etc

chrisj1602 · August 2023

I’ve just moved from a Princeton Tone Master to a Blackstar St James because I wanted some amp drive.

The good thing for me now is, I still have a nice clean channel that I can use on its own, or with some pedals.

The second channel I use with the gain up high (it’s quite a low gain amp though) and boost for lead with a klone. I’ve got the best of both now.

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