Celestion Creamback G12M-65 vs G12H-75 – which one sounds closer to a Greenback?

Yorkie · July 2023

I've got a Marshall DSL40C and a Vox AC15C1. I am using the normal channel on the Vox for all the stuff that my Bandit used to take. I love the Greenback on it. I've recently tried the Vox's Greenback (12" and 16 ohm) on the DSL and it made it sound even better (was never dissatisfied with the DSL, only stupidly curious enough to try combinations). I've got a bit of money (not much) on my PayPal so I might consider upgrading the 70/80 on the DSL after the holidays. But the Greenback is only rated for 30W.

I've had a look at the tougher Celestions and found that there are two ceramic Creambacks: 65 and 75. As the DSL is 40W, I thought the 65 would be the one to get, but now I am reading that there are sonic differences between the two.

So my question for you is: which one sounds closer to a Greenback? As always, happy to be schooled if the question does not make any sense. I am here to learn.

ICBM · July 2023

The G12M-65 is like the G12M-25 Greenback, the G12H-75 is like the G12H-30. The key difference is the magnet size - the M (medium) magnet is smaller, the H (heavy) magnet is larger, which makes the M speakers more midrangy, the Hs are deeper and clearer.

The Creambacks aren’t quite identical to the lower-powered models, they’re a bit darker and thicker-sounding, but in the same ballpark. Either of them is much better than the Seventy/80.

(The Greenback is 25W not 30 - although that doesn’t change anything here!)

noisepolluter · July 2023

Have to say I love the Creamback H75 in my DSL. Bass is tight and punchy, top end is clear with no harshness. Just a fantastically balanced speaker.

I gather @McToot is also happy with the H75 in his DSL.

Yorkie · July 2023

True, I think I got confused with the 10" version of the Greenback, which appears to be 30W.

The Greenback I've got in the Vox is the M version. But 'deeper and clearer' sounds like more of what I like about the Greenback. So I might have to save a bit more and go for the heavy one. I'll also have to check and see if it fits.

noisepolluter · July 2023

Yorkie said:

True, I think I got confused with the 10" version of the Greenback, which appears to be 30W.

The Greenback I've got in the Vox is the M version. But 'deeper and clearer' sounds like more of what I like about the Greenback. So I might have to save a bit more and go for the heavy one. I'll also have to check and see if it fits.

There should be plenty of room, and it’s fixed into the baffle with screws rather than studs so you don’t need to worry about the number of mounting holes in the speaker basket (for instance some fender amps have 8 studs in the baffle but some celestions only have 4 holes. Pretty sure the Creambacks have 8 holes anyway.)

Yorkie · July 2023

Cool, thanks. I think I'll be posting a WTB for the 75 after the hols.

NelsonP · July 2023

I've got a Greenback in my dsl20cr, and a zilla cab with a creamback. Very different sounds, maybe as much due to the cab than the speaker.

The zilla/creamback sounds fuller, darker, smoother. The greenback in the combo is much more present, crunchier, gnarlier sounding.

Both are great but in slightly different ways.

TTBZ · July 2023

To me the Creambacks sound like improved versions of the M25 and H30. They have similar characteristics but the M has a fuller/tighter bottom end with less of those raspy/fizzy mids, and the H has less harshness/fizz on the high end. I really like the Neo Creamback too, people say it sounds somewhere between the two. Sounds great in my Zilla cab!

ICBM · July 2023

TTBZ said:

To me the Creambacks sound like improved versions of the M25 and H30. They have similar characteristics but the M has a fuller/tighter bottom end with less of those raspy/fizzy mids, and the H has less harshness/fizz on the high end. I really like the Neo Creamback too, people say it sounds somewhere between the two. Sounds great in my Zilla cab!

I just acquired a Neo Creamback, and it's not really what I was expecting from that description or the clips I've heard - I would say it's more like a cross between the G12M-65 and an Alnico Gold. I was really surprised how little high top-end it has - noticeably less than either of the ceramic Creambacks I think (although that's without directly A/B'ing them) - it's more of an upper-mid 'chime'. For me, the newer generation of neos I've tried (Jensen Tornados, Eminence Li'l Texas, Celestion BN10-300X and now the Creamback) all sound somewhere between ceramic and alnico - the clarity of alnico without the sometimes overly smooth sound, and the tightness and punch of ceramic. Possibly the best of all worlds, and that's even without the light weight.

Yorkie · July 2023

An academic question: sometimes the EL34 valves in the DSL rattle a bit. On certain notes and only really noticeable when I’m playing quietly. The Creamback has a resonance frequency of 75 Hz whereas the Seventy/80’s is 85 Hz. Does that mean the valves will rattle on different notes after I swap the speaker?

ICBM · July 2023

Yorkie said:

An academic question: sometimes the EL34 valves in the DSL rattle a bit. On certain notes and only really noticeable when I’m playing quietly. The Creamback has a resonance frequency of 75 Hz whereas the Seventy/80’s is 85 Hz. Does that mean the valves will rattle on different notes after I swap the speaker?

Maybe, but probably not. The rattle is more likely to be triggered by the resonant frequency of the loose parts in the valves. The change in low-end response from the speaker *might* move it to a different frequency, but I think fairly unlikely.

Yorkie · July 2023

ICBM said:

Yorkie said:

An academic question: sometimes the EL34 valves in the DSL rattle a bit. On certain notes and only really noticeable when I’m playing quietly. The Creamback has a resonance frequency of 75 Hz whereas the Seventy/80’s is 85 Hz. Does that mean the valves will rattle on different notes after I swap the speaker?

Maybe, but probably not. The rattle is more likely to be triggered by the resonant frequency of the loose parts in the valves. The change in low-end response from the speaker *might* move it to a different frequency, but I think fairly unlikely.

Now we need to find out. Like I said, I’ll post a WTB after the hols and hope for the best

fretfinder · July 2023

I put a creamback 65 in my Carr Rambler and think it sounds brilliant, miles nicer than it did with the previous Eminence Wizard Redcoat speaker.

noisepolluter · July 2023

I actually found swapping from the stock V-Type to the H75, the bass sounded less prominent, but in a good way - more solid and controlled so I can almost feel it more than hear it, and the low mids are clearer as the bass is shifted down out of their way so the tendency towards boominess has gone.

That may improve/change the vibration - also worth making sure all the valves are properly seated.

What are the EL34’s in there, by the way, and do you know how old they are? I’ve found JJ’s to behave really well in terms of rattle and other extraneous noises.

Yorkie · July 2023

Valves look OK. They are Tung-sol EL34B, not sure how old they are exactly, although I could guesstimate: considering his use profile, when the amp was made, how long power valves usually last for, and the fact that these were not the valves the amp came with, I would say they are not too old. Although of course I must have put 200+ hours on them since I got the amp.

I am happy to save up for the 75, unless I find an irresistible deal on the 65 in the meantime.

noisepolluter · July 2023

You might also find that you’ll dial the amp EQ differently with a Creamback in there and that could also affect the propensity for vibration.

*Aaron* · July 2023

I think it is the H. Check out the Zilla video on them on youtube. I have recently brought the M on here and really like it.

ryanverbena · July 2023

I just went through this dilemma myself - ended up with a pair of G12H-75 Creambacks. I find the separation between the bass and treble gives you more room to let the amp open up and breathe. The G12M's I found to push the mids so much that it squashes the EQ a little. That might be absolute perfection for some, but for me the G12H cones were the winner.

I haven't tried the Neo's or the Alnico Creams so remove them from this comparison.

Yorkie · August 2023

Back from the hols, WTB posted.

Jonathangus · August 2023

Yorkie · August 2023

Jonathangus said:

Thanks, that's a very informative video. I did not like the neo at all. I did like all the others though... do you think the M sounded closest to the AlNiCo one?

Also, I'm looking to install this on an open back Marshall. How would that influence the choice of speaker?

Jon

Yorkie · August 2023

I am even more confused than I was weeks ago. I have watched some other Zilla shootouts and I am now under the impression that the neo creamback may actually sound far closer to a greenback than any of the other creambacks.

Of all the gear rabbit holes one can go down, speaker change is the one I hate the most

ICBM · August 2023

Yorkie said:

I am even more confused than I was weeks ago. I have watched some other Zilla shootouts and I am now under the impression that the neo creamback may actually sound far closer to a greenback than any of the other creambacks.

No, it really doesn't. I have one. It's both smoother and more metallic-sounding, somewhat 'halfway to an alnico' with a touch of V30 upper mids and a surprising lack of true top-end.

The G12M-65 is the closest. Trust me.

noisepolluter · August 2023

H75 and M65 Creambacks come up regularly on here. Get both, keep the one you prefer.

Yorkie · August 2023

Got a bit more money. I've discovered Lean and ordered an M, brand new. I'm sure it'll be fine.

Yorkie · August 2023

Lean have delivered the Creamback in less than 24h

Will install it on Friday.

Yorkie · August 2023

Four days after receiving the speaker I’ve finally found the time to install it.

First time trying a brand new replacement speaker. The initial 20’ have been unbelievably disappointing. The Creamback was considerably louder than the stock speaker (?), but it sounded… I don’t know, hollow? Then something happened and it started pumping more bass and clearer mids. That got me a bit more excited and I started playing harder, getting more dirt out of the amp… 40’ later, there’s no going back. I can now crank the presence control, crunch sounds glorious. I’ve also got a very consistent sound out of my two amps.

Jon

Yorkie · August 2023

Answering the question on whether the valves would rattle on different notes due to the Creamback's different resonant frequency: they don't. I'm getting the exact same rattle and on the same notes.

However.

I have discovered that the valves are much less likely to rattle if I deactivate the onboard (digital) reverb. And I can use my dedicated reverb pedal with little to no rattling happening. I guess they run a different EQ? What a sweet discovery

Yorkie · August 2023

Now, I’ve got a question on sensitivities (Hopefully not related to speaker politics

).

Creamback: 97 dB.

Seventy/80: 98 dB.

Same impedance, the Creamback was noticeably louder. What is going on?

Jon

roberty · August 2023

Yorkie said:

Now, I’ve got a question on sensitivities (Hopefully not related to speaker politics ).

Creamback: 97 dB.
Seventy/80: 98 dB.

Same impedance, the Creamback was noticeably louder. What is going on?

Jon

Hey I think it's probably that the Creamback is emphasising frequencies that you are better able to hear. Human hearing is more sensitive to certain frequencies and also this varies from person to person. You can make things sound clearer and louder with subtractive EQ so it could be that the Seventy/80 is pumping out more junk

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

^^^ as above. DB sensitivity is crude. Often it's using a 1khz tone rather than broadband pink noise or guitar speaker frequencies. Human hearing perceives frequencies in the speech range as louder than they actually are. So high mids/low treble emphasis will make a speaker sound louder

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Celestion Creamback G12M-65 vs G12H-75 – which one sounds closer to a Greenback?

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