Martin SC-13e?

Phil_C · May 2023

Hello guys

I'm close to purchasing one of these Martin SC-13e's - Would you recommend one? I do like the access to the higher frets but it's not essential. I've watched plenty of youtube demos, they sound great but is there anything negative I should know?

I was also looking at second hand Gibsons, SJ-200's to be exact. Haven't explored the other realms of possibilities yet. I like the natural fishman pickup output on the demos, without that overly piezo sound. I delve between finger picking and strumming also, so not strictly one style.

Cheers,

Phil.

goldtop · May 2023

Just joining in because I wonder about this, too. There is (or was) one for sale here in the Classifieds. If I hadn't just bought a 3rd acoustic, I'd have been very tempted to go and try it out. I've got a suspicion that it won't be as loud as a dread/jumbo.

The only negative that I've read is that the special shimming system for the bolt-on neck is not a thing that your local luthier can do. It needs a Martin dealer, and (supposedly) one that has been trained in the specific details.

Phil_C · May 2023

Yes I was also wondering about the shimming system. I suppose your average tech may possibly be at a loss with regards to how to work it? Which is a bit of a bummer. Unless you want to trust your local luthier with having a go!

I'm open to other acoustic suggestions to be fair, up the the 2k range but this Martin did catch my eye.

Modmins, could you please move this to the acoustic section? Thank you

ICBM · May 2023

One of the regulars at the acoustic jam night I go to has one of these - it's by far the best-sounding guitar there, really nice. It's easily loud enough - maybe not quite up there with a Dread, but about the same as a 000/OM. I've only heard it unplugged so I can't comment on the amplified sound.

It also looks much less odd when you see it in the room held in the playing position, than it does vertical against a plain background in most of the catalogue/dealer pics.

(You can move the thread to the acoustic section yourself if you click on the little wheel symbol at the top right and select edit.)

Phil_C · May 2023

ICBM said:

One of the regulars at the acoustic jam night I go to has one of these - it's by far the best-sounding guitar there, really nice. It's easily loud enough - maybe not quite up there with a Dread, but about the same as a 000/OM. I've only heard it unplugged so I can't comment on the amplified sound.

It also looks much less odd when you see it in the room held in the playing position, than it does vertical against a plain background in most of the catalogue/dealer pics.

(You can move the thread to the acoustic section yourself if you click on the little wheel symbol at the top right and select edit.)

Thanks of the reply mate. I've moved it to acoustics, wasn't aware I could sort it myself

I plan to do a lot of recording with it but I think it may be a balance between mic'd up and plugged in to see which sounds better to suit what I'm outputting

It does possess that natural Martin sound too. I'm not really too bothered about dread loudness but I can imagine you are correct with it being quite short of the output of one of those!

Epsilon · May 2023

I really like the design, but unless I'm mistaken it's laminate back and sides. £1700 is a lot to spend and not get all solid wood.

Tannin · May 2023

I love their Magnificently Bullshit® term for a bolt-on neck: "Sure Align® Linear Dovetail Neck Joint". What a load of cobblers. And this business of pretending that only Martin and Martin-trained dealers can adjust a neck shim ... that's got balls on it.

Epsilon said:

I really like the design, but unless I'm mistaken it's laminate back and sides. £1700 is a lot to spend and not get all solid wood.

And here is the key point. They are way over priced. £1500-£1700 for a plywood guitar? On what planet is that reasonable?

Browsing Guitar Guitar just now, for the same money or less you can buy a Furch Blue (various models), Furch Green (several models), Taylor 314ce, Martin 000-15M or 00-15M or D-15M, Maton SRS-60C or Performer, Cole Clark FL1, FL 2, Angel 1, and Angel 2. Also, a used Avalon A12, used Maestro Traditional OM, ex-demo Taylor American Dream, used Lakewood, two different used Larrivvees.

All of those just mentioned are high-quality instruments in all solid wood (which the Martin is not), made in First World high-wage countries (which the Martin is not).

You can do better for the same money. Much better.

Phil_C · May 2023

Tannin said:

I love their Magnificently Bullshit® term for a bolt-on neck: "Sure Align® Linear Dovetail Neck Joint". What a load of cobblers. And this business of pretending that only Martin and Martin-trained dealers can adjust a neck shim ... that's got balls on it.

Epsilon said:

I really like the design, but unless I'm mistaken it's laminate back and sides. £1700 is a lot to spend and not get all solid wood.

And here is the key point. They are way over priced. £1500-£1700 for a plywood guitar? On what planet is that reasonable?

Browsing Guitar Guitar just now, for the same money or less you can buy a Furch Blue (various models), Furch Green (several models), Taylor 314ce, Martin 000-15M or 00-15M or D-15M, Maton SRS-60C or Performer, Cole Clark FL1, FL 2, Angel 1, and Angel 2. Also, a used Avalon A12, used Maestro Traditional OM, ex-demo Taylor American Dream, used Lakewood, two different used Larrivvees.

All of those just mentioned are high-quality instruments in all solid wood (which the Martin is not), made in First World high-wage countries (which the Martin is not).

You can do better for the same money. Much better.

Funnily enough there's a pre-owned Maton EBG808 Michael Fix for £1799! I do like the Matons.

Tannin · May 2023

One of the few Maton models I haven't played @Phil_C, and well into the mid-range of their line-up where the best ones mostly live - the Artist, the TEs, the Australians, all good 'uns. I should mention the Nashville too but I'n not so fond of that one (just a matter of taste, it's a perfectly decent guitar, I just don't care for the twang, not the sunburst finish. I have every reason to expect that the Michael Fix would be another beauty.

I'm a huge fan of Queensland Maple back and sides. QM doesn't have the lovely and obvious in-your-face distinctive trademark tone of something like rosewood or Blackwood; instead it simply provides a well-rounded, all-purpose sound which you can do as you like with. It is, in a word, biddable. It doesn't say "I sound like this, do you like me?" it says "what sort of sound do you want today?"

BTW, in my previous comment I neglected to say that I applaud Martin's work with the SC-13. It is really good to see them thinking outside the box and actually doing something they were not doing in 1935. Time moves on, technology advances, and good on Martin for recognising that.

But I wouldn't buy one, they are way too dear.

Mellish · May 2023

I'm a big fan of Martin.

The model in question is built at their Mexico factory.....
I have to say I'd want all solid if I was spending £1,700.

Gandalph · May 2023

Also a Martin fan but as others have said £1700
is way too much for laminate back and sides.

1k absolute tops imo.

You could get a lot more guitar for your money if
you look at the used market.

ICBM · May 2023

I think you need to open your minds.

If it sounds better from across the room than a D-18, which is overpriced?

Tannin · May 2023

I'd have the D-18 every single time. Great guitars.

And unless I seriously miss my guess, those all-solid, no-corners-cut guitars from the likes of Furch, Maton, and Taylor will eat it alive.

(I haven't played one, but I've played other "cheap" Martins and come away very unimpressed.)

PS: Of the American majors, the only one which has the knack of making "cheap" guitars (actually still expensive for what they are, but cheaper than the mainstream models) is Taylor.

goldtop · May 2023

I agree about the laminated wood being an unpleasant surprise. When I first posted about the SC13e, I also wondered if Martin was being very careful not to put this to close to their 'normal' ranges - just in case the market reacted so badly against it. Martin buyers seem a fairly conservative lot AFAICT from lurking on the acoustic guitar forums.

But ISTR that the same body style is now available in a high-end US-built all-solid version, too. If so, perhaps it will start to filter up and down the range?

(And I see that the one in Classifieds has sold.)

ICBM · May 2023

Tannin said:

I'd have the D-18 every single time. Great guitars.

I would have thought so too, but from across the room it just doesn’t sound as good as the SC. Of course it might just be a duff one or have dead strings on it…

Tannin said:

And unless I seriously miss my guess, those all-solid, no-corners-cut guitars from the likes of Furch, Maton, and Taylor will eat it alive.

Aren’t they a lot more expensive? The point is that I don’t think it’s overpriced at what it is, which is not a high-end price these days, even though I’ve also heard better guitars which cost a lot more.

goldtop said:

I agree about the laminated wood being an unpleasant surprise.

Are we sure it’s to cut costs, or is it possible it’s actually a deliberate design choice with this style of body?

I don’t know, but I do know that guitar sounds great, and I wouldn’t even have guessed it was laminate.

earwighoney · May 2023

ICBM said:

Are we sure it’s to cut costs, or is it possible it’s actually a deliberate design choice with this style of body?

I don’t know, but I do know that guitar sounds great, and I wouldn’t even have guessed it was laminate.

From a feature about the instrument I came across this

"We’ve started using fine veneer woods for the Road Series, and that does make them roadworthy, because you don’t have to worry about the wood cracking and moving around as much.

We’re also able to offer better aesthetics - such as more figuring and flame in the grain with fine veneer woods, such as the koa in this instance - at a much lower price point than we could with solid back and sides."

goldtop · May 2023

ICBM said:

goldtop said:

I agree about the laminated wood being an unpleasant surprise.

Are we sure it’s to cut costs, or is it possible it’s actually a deliberate design choice with this style of body?

I don’t know, but I do know that guitar sounds great, and I wouldn’t even have guessed it was laminate.

I think there was some relationship with their Mexican production and the use of laminate. I don't think it's a 1:1 relationship, though. (FWIW, Martin uses all-solid on the low-cost Dreadnought/000 Jr.)

But I'll definitely try one as soon as I can. It's the sound that matters.

Moe_Zambeek · May 2023

These were much cheaper when introduced, I’m sure they could be had for around £1200 before haggling. At the same time a D18 was around £2500.

1700 does seem steep but used prices still seem a bit soft for these so they’re probably a great used buy.

goldtop · May 2023

This is one of the reviews for the high-end all-solid SC, and somehow I get the impression that they are not very enamoured of it. Seems to be a lot of feint praise:

DavidR · May 2023

Personally, I never liked the look of the SC13E. I really don't like the asymmetry of the lower bout. It just doesn't look right (and is nowhere near as clever as the Emerald Guitars innovation of twisting the curve between the upper and lower bout on the GBE side of the guitar slightly to match the angle of your thigh instead of it just being at 90 degrees to the rest of the guitar. That was clever). Never got further than that actually. Have seen them in shops and have not picked one up because I know I would never buy one. Also - electrics - which I never buy.

When they came out in 2019 I really admired Martin for expanding the envelope of guitar design even further. It's commercially very brave to go out on a limb with such a radical design and good luck to them because they seem to have sold a lot. Unlike violins, when you're making a guitar you can change many parameters and still end up with something called a guitar! Martin were very adventurous with the SC13E and that's good.

And yes Martin's generally are very expensiveville, but £1.7K no longer seems that expensive for an instrument from a top maker. It's certainly not expensive for a Martin.

I don't go a bundle on that solid/laminate top contoversy either. If a guitar suits your tonal requirements who cares.

Apart from @ICBM whose mate has got one, we haven't heard from anyone on this thread who owns one as yet. It would be great to get some owner feedback.

goldtop · May 2023

On that, paging @misterpete - care to share your experience?

Phil_C · May 2023

I found this on another forum about the SC-13e

Interesting read.

I own one and love it. I have a thread on this forum about it. It is very effective acoustic instrument for its intended purpose. I have spent about an hour on the phone with a Martin rep. discussing nuances of the instrument. I place the sound experience right their with the 000 28 model. Happy to answer your questions.

As far as laminate guitars, I steered away from them till this came to be. The veneers (3 layers) are done with quality wood. Not a cheap fill layer of wood from the birch or poplar species, which is usually the product from a young soft tree. That change alone makes a big difference. Not to mention there is not excessive glue in those veneers of the Martin like you see in much cheaper laminate guitars. The excessive glue is often the reason for laminate guitars sounding so flat.

This thing sings. I have let some folks play it. Those that new it was laminate were extremely surprised. The others could not believe it was a laminate, especially with the quality of the Koa.

I have two minor nags, which both are dismissive, One, the neck is great with the changing carve, but it is a slight to thin in the first few positions when I quickly sweep up the neck. It is getting better, just takes some getting used to. A ever so slightly thicker neck in the first five positions would be beneficial. Just my take. The other is the pickguard. I do not know if Martin was trying to cling to the purist nature of some of their customer base or history or what. The pickguard would look better if it was plain white, or better yet, none at all. I quickly remove mine. My two cents.
I mat change the electronics later on. After learning the uniqueness of the Fishman that is n it, I have learned to live with it, it is not bad.

Unplugged, it holds it's own with a 814ce or 000-28. Take care.

Mellish · May 2023

@Phil_C ; I'd say find one and try it, and if you do and you like it and want it and can afford it, buy it.

Phil_C · May 2023

Mellish said:

@Phil_C ; I'd say find one and try it, and if you do and you like it and want it and can afford it, buy it.

Yeah I'm thinking so too.

There's a 314ce Taylor on GG pre-owned and a Maton EBG808 Michael Fix for the same price, I must admit they've caught my eye too. Even the Gibson SJ-200 studio in the classifieds has me tempted. Though then I'd never find out about the Martin SC lol

Also found a ex demo Taylor 414ce for £2k but that's a bit over budget

Tannin · May 2023

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

And unless I seriously miss my guess, those all-solid, no-corners-cut guitars from the likes of Furch, Maton, and Taylor will eat it alive.

Aren’t they a lot more expensive? The point is that I don’t think it’s overpriced at what it is, which is not a high-end price these days, even though I’ve also heard better guitars which cost a lot more.

Well that's the thing. The SC-13 is very dear and costs the same as or more than those guitars I listed. Guitar Guitar sell it for £1699. For the same money or less, Guitar Guitar also have the following all-solid instruments from quality makers:

£1099 Furch Blue dred spruce & walnut
£1099 Furch Blue cedar & Khaya
£1149 Furch Blue spruce & walnut
£1299 (used) Lakewood spruce & Ovangkol
£1299 (used) Larrivee spruce & rosewood
£1299 (used) Larrivee spruce & Sapele
£1299 Cole Clark FL1 Bunya & Queensland Maple
£1299 Taylor American Dream mahogany & Sapele
£1399 Furch Green dred spruce & Khaya
£1399 ditto in an OM
£1399 Cole Clark Humbucker model in all Blackwood (bargain! - these usually cost a lot more)
£1399 Maton SRS-60C spruce & Queensland Maple
£1399 (used) Taylor 314ce spruce & Sapele
£1449 Taylor American Dream spruce & Sapele
£1499 (used) Maestro Red Spruce & mahogany
£1499 Taylor GTe spruce & ash
£1499 Taylor GTe spruce & ash
£1499 (used) Avalon A12 spruce & rosewood
£1499 Cole Clark Humbucker modelBunya & Blackwood
£1499 Cole Clark FL1 all Silky Oak
£1499 Cole Clark Angel 1 all Silky Oak
£1499 Taylor GTe all mahogany
£1539 Maton Performer Bunya & Queensland Maple
£1599 Furch Green dred spruce & rosewood
£1599 Furch Green spruce & rosewood
£1599 Cole Clark FL2 Bunya & Blackwood
£1599 Cole Clark Angel 2 Bunya & Blackwood
£1599 Martin D-15M Sipo
£1599 Martin 00-15M Sipo
£1599 Martin 000-15M Sipo
£1599 Taylor GTe spruce & walnut
£1599 Taylor American Dream 17e spruce & walnut
£1699 Furch Green spruce & rosewood
£1699 Martin D-15M Sipo
£1699 Martin 000-15M Sipo

That's close to 30 good quality, all-solid guitars from quality makers, not counting used ones (some nice guitars there!) and not counting anything made in China.

(Except the used Maestro which I included only for the sake of interest. Maestro are regarded as the real deal, apparently making very good quality instruments which they try really, really hard to pretend are made in Singapore - but which are actually made in China.)

Obviously, I'm going to have to try an SC-13 for myself next time I have the opportunity. (Your report intrigues me. Paul Davids also thinks well of them.) But I have never yet played a laminate guitar which could hold a candle to a good solid one. Taylor have a pretty good crack at it, and one's initial impression of some of their 2 and 3 Series models is very positive, but the early gloss soon fades and they sound very samey after the first few minutes. That wonderful subtlety and variety of tone a good acoustic guitar offers is not there.

thomasross20 · May 2023

I can't believe a standard oo-18 is now £3k.
I'd actually consider getting one but yeowch, crazy price and it's not even wood binding.

Gandalph · May 2023

@Phil_C ;, I'd say that Maton EBG808 certainly warrants a closer look.

The thrill of the chase hey, love it!

Gandalph · May 2023

Just done the morning rounds on Facebook Marketplace.
There's an almost new Maton EBG808 Nashville for £1900 that I dare say you could negotiate on.

In Scotland too...

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/831204827940780/

thomasross20 · May 2023

Daaaamn.

You know my girlfriend's advice? Just play the guitars I've got for now (of which I have the new parlour and Bhilwara!) and she's probably right. Dunno when this turned from playing acoustics to buying acoustics! Think I will stick to the occasional shop trip and only snag anything if I like it in person at the time.

Sorry to derail

Gandalph · May 2023

thomasross20 said:

Daaaamn.

You know my girlfriend's advice? Just play the guitars I've got for now (of which I have the new parlour and Bhilwara!) and she's probably right. Dunno when this turned from playing acoustics to buying acoustics! Think I will stick to the occasional shop trip and only snag anything if I like it in person at the time.

Sorry to derail

Apologies, just realised I notified you a couple of posts ago. Edited now to actually make sense and notify the Op.

Edit: which also means my reference to the Maton in Scotland is total nonsense as the Op is in Liverpool.

I'll call a cab.

Soupman · May 2023

Laminate is cheaper than solid wood. My experience has been that solid woods sound better.
Martin's marketing team think differently.
Sniff deeply. Is that the old familiar scent of Snake Oil...?
Not just any laminate, Martin laminate.......

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