Did/does anyone find the "self-taught"/online route more productive than private lessons?

ms21 · April 2023

Sorry in advance for the long post but:

The reason I ask is that whilst conventional wisdom states that private lessons are always superior, I’ve gone from online courses and just had my 2nd private lesson and find the whole thing rather frustrating. Now, I am most certainly gonna give the guy a chance, he seems really nice and I know full well that 2x1 hour sessions is nowhere near enough to really get into it.

But here’s the thing, I’ve been playing for about 2 years now. Solidly at an intermediate stage in certain aspects but still a beginner with lead work and theory. The only reason I didn’t take private lessons to begin with was due to financial reasons. The problem I have encountered though, unsurprisingly, with learning online, is a lack of structure and direction. I aim to practice for around 4 hours a day and I’m there or thereabouts, but it can get very frustrating not knowing if the routine is getting you anywhere, and whether or not you’re doing things properly, or taking longer than you need to be learning a certain technique.

So recently I bit the bullet and took my first lesson. The guy seems really nice and prior to our first meeting, I explained to him why I needed a teacher. Feedback & practice structure, in a nutshell. But, up until this point he’s provided me with next to nothing practical to take home with me, besides one lick to loosely practice here and there. He’s also not been technique orientated whatsoever and has instead just given me 2 lessons on foundational theory. The lessons have been cool and everything, but it just feels like we’re doing a course he gives all of his students and nothing that isn’t available online for 100% cheaper.

Also, whilst he isn’t stupid enough to overtly insult bands and musicians I love, he has made a few underhanded comments about them, which I’ve found quite off putting and frustrating.

Whilst it’s only been 2 lessons, I feel like I was actually making a lot more progress in weeks gone by purely with online courses and it hasn’t felt like his lessons are catered to me at all.

As I said, I will definitely give him a chance for a few more weeks. But I’d love any advise about this. Is it just normal for the initial lessons to be like this? Is the problem simply the teacher? Did anyone actually just favour and do better with online courses as opposed to private lessons?

Sporky · April 2023

He does not sound like the right teacher for you.

joeW · April 2023

Jog him on. Might be a great teacher but doesn’t seem right for you. I usually come away with so much useful work to do it takes me ages to get it together.

ms21 · April 2023

Sporky said:

He does not sound like the right teacher for you.

joeW said:

Jog him on. Might be a great teacher but doesn’t seem right for you. I usually come away with so much useful work to do it takes me ages to get it together.

Thanks for the direct and honest replies. Do you think it’s definitely not too early to ascertain this or would it be obvious even after only 2 lessons?

Barnezy · April 2023

I personally think you need to accept your progress will get slower now. It’s all about incremental improvements now.

I’ve had a few teachers. One was a Spanish guitarist who was very pedantic on technique, the other was a well known YouTuber who just wanted to jam the whole lesson the last was a Jazzer who was absolutely amazing at building my understanding of theory. The moral is you will want to work with lots of teachers now and each will have their own advantages.

However if I were you, you should go and play with others. If you’ve been playing in your bedroom for 2 years your timing is probably poor and timing is 90% of being a good player. Look to see if there is a RockProject Encore near you and go and get involved. Playing with others is the fastest and best way to improve.

https://www.therockproject.com/encore

BluesLover · April 2023

You have told him what you want/need from lessons, and he's not listening. It's your time and money, find another teacher, sooner rather than later.

ms21 · April 2023

Barnezy said:

I personally think you need to accept your progress will get slower now. It’s all about incremental improvements now.

I’ve had a few teachers. One was a Spanish guitarist who was very pedantic on technique, the other was a well known YouTuber who just wanted to jam the whole lesson the last was a Jazzer who was absolutely amazing at building my understanding of theory. The moral is you will want to work with lots of teachers now and each will have their own advantages.

However if I were you, you should go and play with others. If you’ve been playing in your bedroom for 2 years your timing is probably poor and timing is 90% of being a good player. Look to see if there is a RockProject Encore near you and go and get involved. Playing with others is the fastest and best way to improve.

https://www.therockproject.com/encore

Thanks for the resource. Will check it out.

kelpbeds · April 2023

I'm a teacher and my first question is always, 'What do you want/hope to achieve in your guitar playing' then I design a bespoke curriculum for them around that. And I always keep checking ever so often that they are happy with the direction we are taking and make adjustments if necessary.

ms21 · April 2023

kelpbeds said:

I'm a teacher and my first question is always, 'What do you want/hope to achieve in your guitar playing' then I design a bespoke curriculum for them around that. And I always keep checking ever so often that they are happy with the direction we are taking and make adjustments if necessary.

So… whereabouts are you based then

Barnezy · April 2023

ms21 said:

Barnezy said:

I personally think you need to accept your progress will get slower now. It’s all about incremental improvements now.

I’ve had a few teachers. One was a Spanish guitarist who was very pedantic on technique, the other was a well known YouTuber who just wanted to jam the whole lesson the last was a Jazzer who was absolutely amazing at building my understanding of theory. The moral is you will want to work with lots of teachers now and each will have their own advantages.

However if I were you, you should go and play with others. If you’ve been playing in your bedroom for 2 years your timing is probably poor and timing is 90% of being a good player. Look to see if there is a RockProject Encore near you and go and get involved. Playing with others is the fastest and best way to improve.

https://www.therockproject.com/encore

Thanks for the resource. Will check it out. But think the timing thing may be a bit presumptive. My teacher said it was very strong in all fairness

Well you’re doing better than me in that department then. I took a similar route to learning as you. I thought I had good timing when playing on my own to perfectly tempo’s backing tracks, that was until I was in a room with 4 other musicians all trying to keep time with one another. That’s when the penny dropped, for me at least.

kelpbeds · April 2023

ms21 said:

kelpbeds said:

I'm a teacher and my first question is always, 'What do you want/hope to achieve in your guitar playing' then I design a bespoke curriculum for them around that. And I always keep checking ever so often that they are happy with the direction we are taking and make adjustments if necessary.

So… whereabouts are you based then

I'm in Shropshire, just PMed you.

Tannin · April 2023

Does anyone find the "self-taught"/online route more productive than private lessons?

Of course. It is much more time efficient and covers exactly the ground you want to cover. You can follow up on things which appeal to you and change direction any time you see a new and promising technique or style.

Naturally, this has drawbacks too. The sheer variety on offer of different things to learn is overwhelming. It is easy to take a small bite from 20 different plates and not really learn anything much about any of them. You have to learn to be selective and you have to develop some self-discipline.

Finally, only an in-person teacher can watch you play and point out flaws in your technique or things - sometimes quite small things - which are holding you back. Note that this doesn't have to be a professional teacher, it could be the other guitarist in your band or the chap over the road you sometimes jam with. It just needs to be someone who isn't you and who can play a bit. But a good teacher is usually better at it.

---------------------------------------------------------

Now,. as to your current teacher. He doesn't seem like a good match for you, but you are wise to stick with it for a few more weeks. Everyone is different and there will be things about this chap's teaching which will be useful and valuable to you. Look for those things before you move on.

ms21 · April 2023

Just to follow up with this. If anyone has any recommendations for teachers in the London area, that would be much appreciated. A vote of confidence from this site is something I’ll always take seriously. The people on here directed me to Rich Rendall for guitar finishing and that turned out pretty amazingly.

Cheers

sev112 · April 2023

I think a healthy balance between what you think you want and some things that make you better for 3rd person’s viewpoint can be perfect.

I’ve had 2 sets of about 8 lessons each in the past 10 years. The first I didn’t know what I wanted, but just wanted to be better and learn some new things, maybe rhythm guitar related. I’m not sure any one lesson did all or any of it, but by the end I really had improved my rhythm styles and grooves, timing, theory, songs, different types of music

the second was something similar but completely different player as teacher , but with same sort of generic “make me better” scope. We did scales, arpeggios, timing, and one song/ solo. Seems boring, bland and limited when read like that but blimey did all that make me a much much better player in all aspects.

I’d give it a few more, tell him/her how you are currently feeling and see how it goes. Hope it works out for you

Sporky · April 2023

The thing about a good teacher is that you'll say "I want to be able to...", and they'll be able to work out what you need to do first, and all the things off to the side that might help or hinder.

Grampa · April 2023

I've tried 2 different teachers on a 1 to 1 basis, given them both up as find the unlimited online resources available, especially YouTube, far more productive. I can pause, go back, retry as many times as I need to get the hang of whatever as well as finding multiple ways of doing something and having the ability to adopt the method that works best for me.

Lestratcaster · April 2023

I was self taught for about 6 years. But knew next to nothing. Could play a few chords and string a tune together or the odd riff but that was it. I wanted to improve and really understand what I was playing.

First thing that I noticed was my ear for music and timing. Also theory and knowledge of the fretboard. I spent 4 years at ACM in Guildford and a host of top teachers. Really improved and I'm now a private tutor myself. I've seen many learners who come to me who've tried the YouTube method but they say it doesn't work for them. Having the regular weekly lesson with me forces them to play out of their comfort zone slightly and it does improve them.

So I'd go with what's said above and say its the teacher that's the problem. Maybe another one will see things different and actually know what to do to ensure you make progress.

roberty · April 2023

Took me four goes to find the right tutor for me. Went online in the end, Skype lessons. For me personally it really mattered to have a tutor whose playing I genuinely admired

ms21 · April 2023

roberty said:

Took me four goes to find the right tutor for me. Went online in the end, Skype lessons. For me personally it really mattered to have a tutor whose playing I genuinely admired

Yeah I think this may be a big thing for me too. I’ve had a look on the website Fiverr and found some awesome players. But of course it’s all remote. How did you find not being able to jam over Zoom, though? As I guess there’d be latency issues? Or did you have a workaround?

ms21 · April 2023

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F.

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!?

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right?

guitarjack66 · April 2023

I suggest you start trying to play songs and ask him if he would do this with you. This is how I've learned over the last three years and I find it's been both fun and practical. Don't get bogged down in too much theory as that will open up with practice. I don't like remote learning myself as you miss out on so much from being alongside an experienced musician.

bobacco · April 2023

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F.

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!?

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right?

These are essentially octave shapes, and will transpose into any key - but you are limited by the number of frets available (in either direction).

Learning the notes on a single string isn’t to be discouraged (see The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick - first thing he drills if I recall!) but learning the octave shapes helps in that it can help with fretboard movement / fluidity.

Daniele Gottardo has a DVD called Superfingering which uses the octave approach and describes them as ‘containers’ - with an octave shape, you have your upper and lower bounds (the tonic note) which you can then ‘flesh out’ with either chord tones (for chords or arpeggios) or scalar notes. (Caveat: Daniele is Italian and thus so is the DVD language - there’s an English overdub that’s a bit mental, almost gratingly so!)

To address your example: with the root note on the 6th string (B on the 7th of the low E), you’d need to descend three frets and ascend three strings. So - the B you’re looking for is on the 4th fret of the G string. This will work for all notes on the 6th string, but naturally you’ll get to the G on the 3rd fret and need to utilise the open string on the G string (think of open strings as ‘fret zero’). The F# on the 2nd fret is where it falls over and the shape is no longer viable.

Another cool thing is that the shapes on the low E carry to the A string - without alteration for the ‘higher fret’ (namely the ‘up two frets, up two strings’) shapes and with the shape I outlined above, you need to remember that G-B is a major third - whereas D-G is a perfect fourth. In simple terms, this means that the G-B string pair is one fret closer together than the D-G pair (when spelled linearly). What does this mean? You simply need to shift notes which fall on the B string up a fret so that the intervallic relationship is intact. For example, you’ve done the 7th fret B - B octave shape on the E and G strings and move up a string to the E on the 7th fret of the A string. Keeping the shape formula (three frets down, three strings up) puts you on 4th fret of the B string - Eb / D#. That’s a major 7th! And all you need do to get the octave? Shift up a fret - hey presto, there’s the E!

Note: the ‘shrunken’ shape persists on the D string octave shape, too.

(Hope this helps; on mobile and fear it’s just a blathering mess of word soup!)

ms21 · April 2023

bobacco said:

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F.

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!?

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right?

These are essentially octave shapes, and will transpose into any key - but you are limited by the number of frets available (in either direction).

Learning the notes on a single string isn’t to be discouraged (see The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick - first thing he drills if I recall!) but learning the octave shapes helps in that it can help with fretboard movement / fluidity.

Daniele Gottardo has a DVD called Superfingering which uses the octave approach and describes them as ‘containers’ - with an octave shape, you have your upper and lower bounds (the tonic note) which you can then ‘flesh out’ with either chord tones (for chords or arpeggios) or scalar notes. (Caveat: Daniele is Italian and thus so is the DVD language - there’s an English overdub that’s a bit mental, almost gratingly so!)

To address your example: with the root note on the 6th string (B on the 7th of the low E), you’d need to descend three frets and ascend three strings. So - the B you’re looking for is on the 4th fret of the G string. This will work for all notes on the 6th string, but naturally you’ll get to the G on the 3rd fret and need to utilise the open string on the G string (think of open strings as ‘fret zero’). The F# on the 2nd fret is where it falls over and the shape is no longer viable.

Another cool thing is that the shapes on the low E carry to the A string - without alteration for the ‘higher fret’ (namely the ‘up two frets, up two strings’) shapes and with the shape I outlined above, you need to remember that G-B is a major third - whereas D-G is a perfect fourth. In simple terms, this means that the G-B string pair is one fret closer together than the D-G pair (when spelled linearly). What does this mean? You simply need to shift notes which fall on the B string up a fret so that the intervallic relationship is intact. For example, you’ve done the 7th fret B - B octave shape on the E and G strings and move up a string to the E on the 7th fret of the A string. Keeping the shape formula (three frets down, three strings up) puts you on 4th fret of the B string - Eb / D#. That’s a major 7th! And all you need do to get the octave? Shift up a fret - hey presto, there’s the E!

Note: the ‘shrunken’ shape persists on the D string octave shape, too.

(Hope this helps; on mobile and fear it’s just a blathering mess of word soup!)

Thanks for the detailed response. The thing I’ve asked him in a text if it’s simply a pattern to locate octaves or to locate all the individual notes. He said that it was for the latter but that doesn’t seem to make sense. As you said, using my example, to go from the 7th fret B to the 4th fret B, I’m using a completely different pattern than the one he’s given me and he didn’t provide me with this at all. He simply gave me the 2across2down, 3across2down and 2across3up pattern and said this will locate all the notes on the board. So I guess I’m asking if this is all a bit of a red flag? He hasn’t yet replied to my text and don’t want to constantly barrage him with questions outside of lesson hours, but this seems quite important to me!

bobacco · April 2023

Those patterns are just octaves - they won’t help you spell out different intervals as much as give you milestones / anchors from which to do so.

They’re definitely valuable, but I’d say what you’re specifically after is anchors for other intervals? For that, a good way to start is to take your basic major scale shape and play the root note, then the second note in the scale, then third, etc and familiarise yourself with not only with the sound of the intervals, but also the ‘formula’ which makes the pattern (frets and strings as we have discussed). Try playing the intervals harmonically (together) and melodically (successive). You’ll find that some harmonic intervals won’t work as the scale shape places the intervals on the same string - this forces you to think outside the box and locate the note in an alternative location so you can sound them simultaneously. Limitation exercises are also great for this kinda thing (for example, limiting yourself to say, 3-4 strings instead of the full range of the instrument) in terms of forcing you to figure things out on the fly - but that said, a good grounding using the shapes is key. Drill that in until it’s second nature!

One hearty recommendation is the Tom Quayle app, Sølo. Whether or not you’re a fan of Tom’s music, there’s no question that he’s a fantastic educator and the app is perfect for building a masterful knowledge of the fretboard and the patterns and relationships therein. It’s worth every penny - the tutorial videos alone are worth the price of entry.

He also has some good YouTube material which doesn’t necessarily need the app:

https://youtu.be/dhwix_UAkm0

viz · April 2023

I was self-taught but unfortunately I'm not a very good teacher.

Timcito · May 2023

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Timcito said:

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

I always felt schools were biased towards classical instruments but I don't exactly know why. Maybe it's because of it's structure and how schools work to structures and parameters themselves?

Lestratcaster · May 2023

I don't think I've ever taught anyone to learn the notes on the fretboard from the start. Most, if not all my learners want to play their favourite artist songs and it would take them ages to learn it themselves and know if they're playing it right. Part of the fun is them choosing the style they want to play and I devise a plan in how they're going to get there.

For the ones doing graded exams then its a bit more theory and technique based. The casual song learners are just there to enjoy playing and for me to show them where to put their hands on the guitar and play along to the recording. Some are now building the ear training skills to work out bits of songs for themselves which is good. Or at least can hear where the verses and choruses are and how long they are in bar length, then the rhythm, etc.

Teetonetal · May 2023

Change teachers. He doesn't sound like a good fit. Unfortunately, there are a lot of quite poor guitar teachers around who don't really have an idea on how to teach effectively.

If you can find a good teacher, then I really do believe it is the best way of learning how to play, but you will need to put the practice in to get the most out of it.

In my opinion, a song based approach for learning skills, technique and theory is not really the most efficient - For example, I would prefer targeted exercises to develop the technique, some theory to enable me to use it and then maybe a song to put help put it into context and practice.

As others have said, playing with others is also very worth while and can help accelerate your development.

Finally be broad minded, and at least look at a few styles the are outside your traditional listening habits, it helps broaden your knowledge.

Tannin · May 2023

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F.

He told me to scrap this and use his method

If a student came to me and showed that he had made good progress learning useful stuff like that, I hope and trust I would have had sufficient flexibility of mind to say "Great! Keep it up. Here is a tip or two to help you along the way." (I used to teach back in the day. Not music other stuff, but teaching is teaching and good teaching is good teaching - and bad teaching is bad teaching.

Time to scrap that teacher. Find one who can get on a wavelength with you.

roberty · May 2023

ms21 said:

roberty said:

Took me four goes to find the right tutor for me. Went online in the end, Skype lessons. For me personally it really mattered to have a tutor whose playing I genuinely admired

Yeah I think this may be a big thing for me too. I’ve had a look on the website Fiverr and found some awesome players. But of course it’s all remote. How did you find not being able to jam over Zoom, though? As I guess there’d be latency issues? Or did you have a workaround?

It was a bit frustrating that we couldn't jam to be honest. But I still got a lot out of it

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Did/does anyone find the "self-taught"/online route more productive than private lessons?

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