PA kit advice - 4 piece pub covers band

roundthebend · April 2023

We did our first gig on Saturday. Hired a pair of 15" active speakers and a sub (with crossover?), used my own 12" active pair as monitors, hired a 16 channel analogue mixing desk, and borrowed a Behringer EQ on advice that it can help control feedback. Someone helped us set up and adjust levels. We sounded pretty good.

Going forward we can't be hiring kit all the time. Especially since, if you've seen my post in Off Topic, the hired kit turned out to be stolen and has been seized by the police so we've not got that option open any more.

We need something simple to set up and use, and ideally not too large to store.
Should we just be going for a similar setup to what we used on that gig?

Band setup -

Electronic drums
4 vocal mics
2 guitarists (using valve combos not mic'd up)
1 bassist (can he go direct to PA perhaps, with a DI or modelling pedal?)

Our sound engineer assistant talked to me about digital mixers making life easier for controlling feedback, rather than needing an EQ or extra features on the mixer. My own little Behringer Xenyx 1202FX doesn't have the dial he was using (frequency) and also doesn't have balanced/XLR outputs to the speakers.

Musicwolf · April 2023

It would help to know a little more about the size of venue and budget.

roundthebend · April 2023

Musicwolf said:

It would help to know a little more about the size of venue and budget.

Cool. I thought I'd covered venue size in the title but I'll try and be more specific. We're talking about your typical pub that has a band on at the weekends, shoved in a corner or maybe in a dedicated stage area. We probably had 50+ people watching us on Saturday just gone, I can imagine some gigs might get up to 100 people.

Budget - well, we don't want to spend loads of money so whatever it takes to get us a simple and usable sound. Our punters aren't going to be worried about it, as long as we can be heard and as long as the band have got some foldback to keep us all tuned in to each other.

I'm wondering if my 12" actives might be good enough for vocals and some of the higher frequency percussion sounds, but add a sub to get the kick sound booming. Then maybe we can save space and get some small monitors. A new desk is going to be needed, and one that has enough features to help us control EQ/frequency so we can manage feedback.

If I have to spend £800 that would be OK. Any more and I'll be hunting around on ebay.

Musicwolf · April 2023

Sounds as though you are playing very similar venues to my band. We also have electronic drums although ours are backing tracks using Superior Drummer plus the bass is going through the PA (as are the two guitars which are using modellers).

For what it's worth we use a pair of Yamaha DXR12's and a Behringer XR-18 digital mixer. It's plenty loud enough but without subs it's never going to give you trouser flapping bottom end. That's about £2k at todays prices (plus leads. stands, monitors etc), so more than you're looking to pay.

For under £1k all in I think that you're best looking for used. If you plan to get a sub then 12 or even 10" tops will work much better than 15". There are three things that you need to know about subs - they're big, they're heavy and they're expensive. If they're not all of those things then they are probably not very good.

roundthebend · April 2023

Well I've got a pair of active 12" speakers so maybe a sub and mixer is all we need, then monitors.

uberscott · April 2023

We're pretty much the same set as you OP in terms of performers, instruments, and venues. Main difference is guitars and bass are all modellers so no amps on stage.

We run an RCF M18 mixer (much the same as the Behringer) into 2x Yamaha DBR12s and a DXS15 sub, we got the Yamaha kit second hand for £750 - so far it's been great, especially since we switched from acoustic to electronic drums, the sub really comes into its own there. We also use the RCF mixer to send IEM mixes for each member via the aux sends.

roundthebend · April 2023

uberscott said:

We're pretty much the same set as you OP in terms of performers, instruments, and venues. Main difference is guitars and bass are all modellers so no amps on stage.

We run an RCF M18 mixer (much the same as the Behringer) into 2x Yamaha DBR12s and a DXS15 sub, we got the Yamaha kit second hand for £750 - so far it's been great, especially since we switched from acoustic to electronic drums, the sub really comes into its own there. We also use the RCF mixer to send IEM mixes for each member via the aux sends.

Cool. What do you use for IEMs? We'll just need a sub and IEMs to complete a basic kit.

maltingsaudio · April 2023

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

roundthebend · April 2023

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

Danny1969 · April 2023

roundthebend said:

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

The guitar cable carries your guitar signal and IEM stereo signal .... nothing clever, it's just a multicore cable with a break out box for the IEM's ... I've been using the system for around 12 years and sold loads to professional musicians who realise it's pointless having wireless IEM's if the guitar isn't wireless and on most stages it's pointless to have a wireless guitar setup.

It's an expensive guitar cable at £50 but it's cheaper than running a wireless IEM setup and sonically superior as there's no radio interference and no batteries required.

Image: https://www.thesuperheroesonline.co.uk/iemver4.jpeg

PolarityMan · April 2023

wireless does make guitar changes quicker, especially when you are also using IEMS as less stuff to get tangled up.

Danny1969 · April 2023

PolarityMan said:

wireless does make guitar changes quicker, especially when you are also using IEMS as less stuff to get tangled up.

I was doing a lot of guitar changes on the KB tribute last year and worked out if I ran the IEM cable inwards of the strap, which is where I always run the guitar cable then changing guitars just means unplug from guitar, put lead in pocket, put down and pickup other guitar and plug in. So it makes no difference it's an IEM & guitar combination cable now.

I did always want a really good guitar and IEM wireless setup but even paying top money for a Senn unit didn't stop radio interference issues ... not just with the normal congested channels but with various electrical items in the theatres causing noise in the system.

Musicwolf · April 2023

I'm with @Danny1969 with regard to wired. A length of copper wire is going to give you the best quality, best reliability and, by far, at the lowest cost.

For a wired system you will need an aux send from the mixer. If each band member wants their own in ear mix, and they more than likely will, then that's one send per band member. If they want a stereo in ear mix then that's a stereo aux or 2x mono aux per band member. This means that you are most likely looking at a digital desk.

The aux bus then needs to feed a headphone amplifier. This can either be on the pedal board (I think that this is what Danny uses) or a belt worn pack but it really should be equipped with a limiter to protect your hearing.

Finally, a pair of ear buds. I use Shure SE535s, which are a triple driver generic fit, but I was planning to get custom moulds made. A good fit is essential for bass response.

You need to spend some time getting the mix right for everyone and getting used to the whole IEM thing. When people say that they can't hear something in their mix, rather than turning that up, I ask them what they would like less of. Best solution is to have each band member in control of their own mix which with a digital mixer you can often do with with an app on their phone. If you have a mixer such as the Behringer XR-18 you could each have a P16-M which is a mixer and a headphone amp and which doesn't tie up any aux busses.

bloodandtears · April 2023

Danny1969 said:

roundthebend said:

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

The guitar cable carries your guitar signal and IEM stereo signal .... nothing clever, it's just a multicore cable with a break out box for the IEM's ... I've been using the system for around 12 years and sold loads to professional musicians who realise it's pointless having wireless IEM's if the guitar isn't wireless and on most stages it's pointless to have a wireless guitar setup.

It's an expensive guitar cable at £50 but it's cheaper than running a wireless IEM setup and sonically superior as there's no radio interference and no batteries required.

Other than a set of headphones and the monitor send from the mixer, is there any other gizmo you need/use in this IEM set up?

Danny1969 · April 2023

@bloodandtears ;
You still need a headphone amp and you need the right kind of cable to convert aux sends .. which are generally balanced differential outputs to single ended outs.

To do this short pin 3 of an XLR output to ground. If it's a balanced TRS output then short the ring to ground. That will give you a singled ended IEM signal. For stereo use 2 aux outs converted in this way. . Then the grounds of these 2 go to TRS ground of the headphone amp in and the signals go to the ring and tip of the TRS input of the headphone amp.

I did make a version where I installed a headphone amp in the actual cable itself which was powered from the pedalboards neg centre 9V supply

Image: http://thesuperheroesonline.co.uk/ha1.jpeg

But It's a fiddly to make, although happy to share technical details to anyone who wants them.

bloodandtears · April 2023

Danny1969 said:

@bloodandtears ;
You still need a headphone amp and you need the right kind of cable to convert aux sends .. which are generally balanced differential outputs to single ended outs.

To do this short pin 3 of an XLR output to ground. If it's a balanced TRS output then short the ring to ground. That will give you a singled ended IEM signal. For stereo use 2 aux outs converted in this way. . Then the grounds of these 2 go to TRS ground of the headphone amp in and the signals go to the ring and tip of the TRS input of the headphone amp.

I did make a version where I installed a headphone amp in the actual cable itself which was powered from the pedalboards neg centre 9V supply

But It's a fiddly to make, although happy to share technical details to anyone who wants them.

I see it.. more complicated than just the fancy cable and an amp then.. as you were..

PolarityMan · April 2023

Musicwolf said:

I'm with @Danny1969 with regard to wired. A length of copper wire is going to give you the best quality, best reliability and, by far, at the lowest cost.

For a wired system you will need an aux send from the mixer. If each band member wants their own in ear mix, and they more than likely will, then that's one send per band member. If they want a stereo in ear mix then that's a stereo aux or 2x mono aux per band member. This means that you are most likely looking at a digital desk.

The aux bus then needs to feed a headphone amplifier. This can either be on the pedal board (I think that this is what Danny uses) or a belt worn pack but it really should be equipped with a limiter to protect your hearing.

Finally, a pair of ear buds. I use Shure SE535s, which are a triple driver generic fit, but I was planning to get custom moulds made. A good fit is essential for bass response.

You need to spend some time getting the mix right for everyone and getting used to the whole IEM thing. When people say that they can't hear something in their mix, rather than turning that up, I ask them what they would like less of. Best solution is to have each band member in control of their own mix which with a digital mixer you can often do with with an app on their phone. If you have a mixer such as the Behringer XR-18 you could each have a P16-M which is a mixer and a headphone amp and which doesn't tie up any aux busses.

This is all very good advice but it does mean that the drummer will get to control his own mix leading to situations like this:

"Hey why does everything sound like shit all of a sudden"
"Ummm well maybe given you're the only instrument making any noise int he room you could use a bit less of the drums in the mix...also why is tom1 have its fader on full blast?"

ElectricXII · April 2023

Some great info here, which reinforces my luddite intention to continue to use f*cking great monitors and loud guitar amps on stage.

roundthebend · April 2023

Would I be right in thinking that IEMs, even a budget setup with wired stuff, will likely be more costly for a 4 piece band than a pair of well-placed monitors?

I think we'll go down the latter route to begin with. The downside to it being cheaper is that someone needs to store and transport a pair of monitors.

Musicwolf · April 2023

A battery operated headphone amp could be as little as £50-60 each, it's then how much you are prepared to spend on earphones. You can go from as little as a few 10's of pounds to thousands. Mine are just under £400 these days but I think that I got them on offer direct from Sennheiser for less than £250 a couple of years ago.

maltingsaudio · April 2023

I bought a pair of Linsoul earpieces last year, excellant value for money in my opinion, sound is very flat so you might need some eq on the send https://www.amazon.co.uk/Headphone-Faceplace-Detachable-Silver-Plated-Audiophile-Black-X/dp/B0BD812JRN/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=3KDMWGMZSUPOB&keywords=linsoul%2Bkz%2Bzs10%2Bpro&qid=1682527608&sprefix=Linsou%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

roundthebend · April 2023

That's each. So x4

Then a mixer to support it.

I think I need to look at mixer options.
My Behringer Xenyx 1202FX has a couple of limitations that I'm aware of...

1. ¼" output jacks only, no XLR

2. Limited EQ for dealing with feedback

3. Single aux output mix (though did have left/right so we can run to monitors?)

maltingsaudio · April 2023

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/246489/mixers#latest

roundthebend · April 2023

So, head is currently in the XR18 space. Then I'll just need a sub and another pair of speakers, either as FOH tops or monitors.

So, a question - given my current active speakers are fairly low budget QTXsound 12" ones, should I consider getting something like a pair of RCF 310a instead and use mine as monitors? Or, what about a set of passive speakers and a cheap power amp?

roundthebend · April 2023

I need some help with spec for a sub too. 15" seems the likely best option, mainly for transport reasons.

maltingsaudio · May 2023

Up grading your speakers is a good route then using the old ones as monitors great idea but thought you were going in ear!

Personally I would suggest a12”” speaker over a 10” for band work every time, and not 15” tops if your going to add a sub. I would recommend HK audio stuff as that’s pretty much all I use except for some Proel. The question is how much are you expecting to pay?

Stratavarious · May 2023

Soundcraft UI24…FTW…

8 aux outs, very clean multitrack recording to USB stick, Web browser based control, rather than apps like Behringer and others.. so no risk of key bits going redundant or incompatible. HDMI and mouse, for direct control with a mini screen too if iPad fails.

We use mix of floor monitors and 3x IEM and other combinations with different lineups.

upgrade your mains and then repurpose your old ones as floor monitors while you try/decide on IEMs.

The cheapest Behringer IEM unit accepts 1/4” and XLR input and has a mono/stereo switch. I use Shure SEs, but much prefer real amp and floor monitors anytime I can.

https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Behringer-Powerplay-PM1-In-Ear-Monitor-Belt-Pack/1WMM?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAjwxr2iBhBJEiwAdXECwxUBPTaOI0NdV0S-txuuh9T0iPJWegtbf378B_ZvWWgCb5goY6tNgRoC85IQAvD_BwE

We run IEM cables with mic cables to the mic stands.. so easy to plug in earphones if singing or doing BVs. Wireless can be a lot of extra hassle but useful if you run about on very big stages,

We have major problems when the signals are lost with wireless.. happens about one in three gigs when the cheaper 2,4ghz stuff gets into conflict. Need to pay a lot for decent wireless and have the use case IMO.

roundthebend · May 2023

maltingsaudio said:

Up grading your speakers is a good route then using the old ones as monitors great idea but thought you were going in ear!
Personally I would suggest a12”” speaker over a 10” for band work every time, and not 15” tops if your going to add a sub. I would recommend HK audio stuff as that’s pretty much all I use except for some Proel. The question is how much are you expecting to pay?

IEM seems like it'll be too costly and fiddly. I, personally, don't think I'd like having earplugs in either because I like to hear what's going on around me - though I do use plugs to protect my ears so maybe I'm talking nonsense.

A pair of floor monitors is enough, and we might get them for £300 if we hunt around. IEMs will add the faff for those who change guitars and might cost a similar amount but add cables and other stuff to the setup.

I'm looking at a couple of Alto TX308s on ebay. Even new they are reasonably good value, it seems.

I want to spend less than <£1000:

mixer
2x tops
sub

I realise this is a tall order, especially if I do go with an XR18 which swallows 60% of the budget.

roundthebend · May 2023

I can probably continue with my little Behringer Xenyx 1202FX for the time being, and push funds into tops/monitors and a sub. Though it has limited controls for feedback management (no sweepable mid or graphic EQ).

Or, I'm watching a Behringer X2222USB on ebay which is cheap enough to leave funds for other components of our system.

roundthebend · May 2023

I've been offered an RCF M18 for £300.... tempting

Musicwolf · May 2023

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/rcf-m18

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PA kit advice - 4 piece pub covers band

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