Live gig EQ frustration

FarleyUK · January 2023

CaseOfAce said:

Not saying that's the case here..
but worth considering...

What's wrong with this picture? -

Guitarist walks into the venue with his guitar bag, modeller du jour and IEMs in a carry case.
Takes out guitar, plugs lead into rack unit and lead out to mixer. Goes to bar.

Meanwhile drummer had arrived at the venue an hour earlier - 3 trips back and forth to car carrying cases and then setting up.
Drummer asks guitarist. err.. how I am I going to hear your guitar on stage.?
Guitarist responds "Err dunno - you could maybe fork out and bring your own monitor or buy yourself a pair of IEMs?"

Drummer asks same question to singer who's also breezed in arrived late at venue and plugged their IEMs in and set up their mic stand - how am I going to hear your vocals at the back here?
Singer responds "Err.. dunno..." etc...

Drummer not happy.

I'm assuming that's not a passive-aggressive barb....

But to elaborate, I have discussed monitoring with the drummer and bassist, multiple times. I have explained the options, to which the drummer has flat out refused to use any of them. Why should he be relying on me bringing my cabs when I don't need them due to going through the PA? Same with the vocals; he needs a monitoring solution, not just relying on hearing my guitar.

Also - this is the same drummer that almost got into a punch up with a sound engineer friend of mine (see my previous post). So it's not like he's open to other people suggesting things (likewise the bass player).

Roland · January 2023

FarleyUK said:

… this is the same drummer that almost got into a punch up with a sound engineer friend of mine (see my previous post). So it's not like he's open to other people suggesting things (likewise the bass player).

Musicwolf said:
… It's hard enough holding a band together / maintaining momentum with reasonable people but when everyone else has to work around one person it's a bloody nightmare…

This line-up isn’t going to work, however good these two are as players. A band is a team, and you can’t carry two people in a four piece. Either they leave or you do.

Is the singer worth the effort of putting together a different rhythm section?

FarleyUK · January 2023

Roland said:

FarleyUK said:

… this is the same drummer that almost got into a punch up with a sound engineer friend of mine (see my previous post). So it's not like he's open to other people suggesting things (likewise the bass player).

Musicwolf said:
… It's hard enough holding a band together / maintaining momentum with reasonable people but when everyone else has to work around one person it's a bloody nightmare…

This line-up isn’t going to work, however good these two are as players. A band is a team, and you can’t carry two people in a four piece. Either they leave or you do.

Is the singer worth the effort of putting together a different rhythm section?

Well, she has potential - but her husband is a complete Yoko Ono. Massive pain in the arse, thinking he's part of the band and sounding like he's our manager to everyone (he even turned up at the gig with a 'CREW' t shirt on.... I very nearly told him to sort out the PA issues then).

Reading these back, I think I've answered my own questions about the group and what to do.....!

fretmeister · January 2023

FarleyUK said:

Roland said:

FarleyUK said:

… this is the same drummer that almost got into a punch up with a sound engineer friend of mine (see my previous post). So it's not like he's open to other people suggesting things (likewise the bass player).

Musicwolf said:
… It's hard enough holding a band together / maintaining momentum with reasonable people but when everyone else has to work around one person it's a bloody nightmare…

This line-up isn’t going to work, however good these two are as players. A band is a team, and you can’t carry two people in a four piece. Either they leave or you do.

Is the singer worth the effort of putting together a different rhythm section?

Well, she has potential - but her husband is a complete Yoko Ono. Massive pain in the arse, thinking he's part of the band and sounding like he's our manager to everyone (he even turned up at the gig with a 'CREW' t shirt on.... I very nearly told him to sort out the PA issues then).

Reading these back, I think I've answered my own questions about the group and what to do.....!

Shag the singer so Yoko never comes again?

p90fool · January 2023

Our singers use IEMs and our drummer has one of those little Behringer monitors on a mic stand right next to her with vocals and a bit of guitar in it.

We have an entirely vocal-only PA and a separate pair of JBL Eon-1s for a touch of guitar spread plus kick drum and one drum overhead.

It's simple, everyone can hear pretty well everything, and as the backline carries most of the weight it's pretty much self mixing.

For big gigs it's someone else's problem, but apart from the odd broken mic cable we never have PA dramas, we just play.

FarleyUK · January 2023

fretmeister said:

FarleyUK said:

Roland said:

FarleyUK said:

… this is the same drummer that almost got into a punch up with a sound engineer friend of mine (see my previous post). So it's not like he's open to other people suggesting things (likewise the bass player).

Musicwolf said:
… It's hard enough holding a band together / maintaining momentum with reasonable people but when everyone else has to work around one person it's a bloody nightmare…

This line-up isn’t going to work, however good these two are as players. A band is a team, and you can’t carry two people in a four piece. Either they leave or you do.

Is the singer worth the effort of putting together a different rhythm section?

Well, she has potential - but her husband is a complete Yoko Ono. Massive pain in the arse, thinking he's part of the band and sounding like he's our manager to everyone (he even turned up at the gig with a 'CREW' t shirt on.... I very nearly told him to sort out the PA issues then).

Reading these back, I think I've answered my own questions about the group and what to do.....!

Shag the singer so Yoko never comes again?

I think she’d break me…. And I’m 6ft 5…!

PolarityMan · February 2023

Wait, if the drummer has no monitoring then how are the drums in time with the dubstep synths?

FarleyUK · February 2023

Quick update - apparently it's my fault as somehow I magically turned up my output which must have caused all the feedback issues.

Despite my guitar volume being on 0 while these feedback issues happened.

And despite me not adjusting anything at all.

And despite us all seeing the bassist fiddling with the mixer during the break.

Hoof · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

EricTheWeary said:

I’m slightly stuck on the drummer not wanting a monitor, it’s something that drummers I’ve played with have been obsessive about having. I’m now imagining someone bashing away at the back and paying no attention to the song. Maybe not.
Obviously you all need to agree on what the set up should be and have a ‘dress rehearsal’ in a village hall as Roland said. If you can’t borrow a sound engineer borrow someone with trusted ears to sit out front.

I know, right?

He refuses to use a wedge monitor as he doesn't like them, and refuses to use IEMs as he feels it disconnects him from what he's playing. He's a good drummer, but he's pretty bloody difficult.

If he knows the songs perfectly keeps good time and can hear things well enough for intro cues etc than I wouldn't see this as a huge problem.

EDIT: On reading the rest of the thread, just quit the band. It sound like they're all bellends (apart from the singer, but she brings one with her) and your gear choices don't fit in with their approach. It's just not going to work out.

Roland · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

… apparently it's my fault ...

ICBM · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

I have discussed monitoring with the drummer and bassist, multiple times. I have explained the options, to which the drummer has flat out refused to use any of them. Why should he be relying on me bringing my cabs when I don't need them due to going through the PA? Same with the vocals; he needs a monitoring solution, not just relying on hearing my guitar.

The drummer not wanting to pay for or carry a monitor is possibly just about excusable, as drummers usually draw the short straw with gear, but actively *not wanting* a monitor if it's provided for him is a different level of obstructive stupid that it's going to be very hard to get around. As you say, even if he can hear your guitar from a cab, how is he going to hear the vocals?

FarleyUK said:

Quick update - apparently it's my fault as somehow I magically turned up my output which must have caused all the feedback issues.

Despite my guitar volume being on 0 while these feedback issues happened.

And despite me not adjusting anything at all.

And despite us all seeing the bassist fiddling with the mixer during the break.

I think you should just leave. They're idiots.

Cols · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

I have discussed monitoring with the drummer and bassist, multiple times. I have explained the options, to which the drummer has flat out refused to use any of them. Why should he be relying on me bringing my cabs when I don't need them due to going through the PA?

Fundamentally, how is a guitar cab on stage different from a monitor on stage with guitar noises coming out of it? From the drummer’s perspective, anyway.

But yes; as many have already said, just leave and find a new band.

rockmonster · February 2023

CaseOfAce said:

Personally we never mic up each instrument - and only put vocals and kick drum thru the PA speakers on sticks and used our own backline to fill the venues.
It's completely against the wisdom that thou shalt mic everything up / this is the way it ought to be done - but:

a) we don't want to fork out for a FOH engineer (if we could even find someone who wants to do it) and
b) it would be complete overkill for most of the rooms we play.

It's also way simpler / easier setup and teardown and avoids the hot mess you encountered that night? Worth a go?

This!
we have done this for over 15 years (same band only a change of singer 5 years ago)
Has worked for us all this time!

26.2 · February 2023

rockmonster said:

CaseOfAce said:

Personally we never mic up each instrument - and only put vocals and kick drum thru the PA speakers on sticks and used our own backline to fill the venues.
It's completely against the wisdom that thou shalt mic everything up / this is the way it ought to be done - but:

a) we don't want to fork out for a FOH engineer (if we could even find someone who wants to do it) and
b) it would be complete overkill for most of the rooms we play.

It's also way simpler / easier setup and teardown and avoids the hot mess you encountered that night? Worth a go?

This!
we have done this for over 15 years (same band only a change of singer 5 years ago)
Has worked for us all this time!

Yep. Simple and effective for small gigs.

FarleyUK · February 2023

Quick update - there's been a sudden backlash against me for having cancelled the next gig as everyone now seems to think the PA feedback wasn't really an issue. In fact, the singer has said "If we're not gigging, what's the point?".

They seem to be ignoring that yes, it's great to be gigging - but if you sound shit, there's no point. I'm sick of being in amateur bands; this was created by the drummer to be a 'professional' band, and I've yet to see any sign of anyone being professional.

Needless to say, I think I'll be telling them to stick the band later on today....!

ICBM · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

Quick update - there's been a sudden backlash against me for having cancelled the next gig as everyone now seems to think the PA feedback wasn't really an issue.

FarleyUK said:

At the start of set 2, he spent 30 minutes - no exaggeration - trying to fix very loud feedback that was happening, resulting in punters leaving the pub and the drummer almost punching him, as well as the landlord getting visibly pissed off.

The feedback was *definitely* an issue. (No need to tell you that!)

There's really no excuse for anything other than the briefest bit of feedback when you're just setting the system up, which should be well before the place is full of punters.

FarleyUK said:

They seem to be ignoring that yes, it's great to be gigging - but if you sound shit, there's no point. I'm sick of being in amateur bands; this was created by the drummer to be a 'professional' band, and I've yet to see any sign of anyone being professional.

This. While I've never been in a 'professional' band or even been paid any really serious money for a gig, it's always important to do things professionally. Take doing the job right seriously, then you will be appreciated, asked back and possibly even rewarded financially.

Anyone who thinks they're a professional but refuses to use a monitor to hear the rest of the band properly is simply not a professional, end of.

FarleyUK said:

Needless to say, I think I'll be telling them to stick the band later on today....!

I'm amazed you haven't already!

FarleyUK · February 2023

ICBM said:

FarleyUK said:

Quick update - there's been a sudden backlash against me for having cancelled the next gig as everyone now seems to think the PA feedback wasn't really an issue.

FarleyUK said:

At the start of set 2, he spent 30 minutes - no exaggeration - trying to fix very loud feedback that was happening, resulting in punters leaving the pub and the drummer almost punching him, as well as the landlord getting visibly pissed off.

The feedback was *definitely* an issue. (No need to tell you that!)

There's really no excuse for anything other than the briefest bit of feedback when you're just setting the system up, which should be well before the place is full of punters.

FarleyUK said:

They seem to be ignoring that yes, it's great to be gigging - but if you sound shit, there's no point. I'm sick of being in amateur bands; this was created by the drummer to be a 'professional' band, and I've yet to see any sign of anyone being professional.

This. While I've never been in a 'professional' band or even been paid any really serious money for a gig, it's always important to do things professionally. Take doing the job right seriously, then you will be appreciated, asked back and possibly even rewarded financially.

Anyone who thinks they're a professional but refuses to use a monitor to hear the rest of the band properly is simply not a professional, end of.

FarleyUK said:

Needless to say, I think I'll be telling them to stick the band later on today....!

I'm amazed you haven't already!

100% agreed on all fronts.

After I quit yesterday, the singer emailed me saying she doesn't understand, she thought everything was going well and there were no issues.

She was obviously thinking of a different band!

RocknRollDave · February 2023

I am absolutely dumbfounded at the idea that a musician would be actively against having a monitor (or some sort of monitoring), when all of my gigging life the goal has always been to hear myself and what is going on better, not worse!

I think it’s clear that the guy has no understanding of live music, of on-stage volume or of how to be part of the team that is a band.
What DOES he actually bring to the table, apart from playing the drums (the bare minimum requirement for a drummer, and far from the only skill needed to be a drummer in a well-functioning band)?!

flying_pie · February 2023

RocknRollDave said:

I am absolutely dumbfounded at the idea that a musician would be actively against having a monitor (or some sort of monitoring), when all of my gigging life the goal has always been to hear myself and what is going on better, not worse!

I think it’s clear that the guy has no understanding of live music, of on-stage volume or of how to be part of the team that is a band.

Agreed. Our drummer had a really bad habit of staring at the floor with his eyes closed when he was in the zone. We've managed to mostly train it out of him and he's now giving eye contact for cues and is alert to the subtle communication of any "unplanned deviations" when the rest of us fuck up and sing an extra chorus when it shouldn't be there. But even with the eyes closed he'd always make sure he had a good balance and could hear us all.

I just can't fathom someone now wanting a monitor.

Danny1969 · February 2023

There's none so strange as folk. I was hired to live record a covers band once and was shocked to find that the drummer mic'ed himself up into his own PA and that sat either side behind him. Never seen anything like it, or heard anything quite as bad. His best bit of playing was when he went into a fill and slipped on his stool. That was almost in time!

I've had singers complain to me they can't hear their voice coming out the bass bins .. which are low passed at 80Hz or so

Singers who wanted to use their expensive studio condenser mic's in a live environment .. standing in a pub 2 feet in front of a drum kit.

Insane volumes of monitoring is normally the issue, and generally the older people get the more they want. It doesn't matter how good you are at ringing out the monitors, eventually you are cutting so many frequencies you might as well just turn the thing down.

But we all start somewhere, the trick is to learn quickly and try and see the whole picture, not just your own need.

CaseOfAce · February 2023

Danny1969 said:

There's none so strange as folk. I was hired to live record a covers band once and was shocked to find that the drummer mic'ed himself up into his own PA and that sat either side behind him. Never seen anything like it, or heard anything quite as bad. His best bit of playing was when he went into a fill and slipped on his stool. That was almost in time!

There's a great interview somewhere on the web about an irish band who supported Van Halen on tour.
On the first day they go up on stage - no monitors...nothing...

They are there wondering how they are gonna hear themselves and discover that the headliners don't use floor monitors or in-ears - they had an entire PA pointing at the stage for MONITORING purposes... as well as the PA for audience out front.

... and yes they said it was blistering loud when they used it...

RocknRollDave · February 2023

Danny1969 said:

There's none so strange as folk. I was hired to live record a covers band once and was shocked to find that the drummer mic'ed himself up into his own PA and that sat either side behind him. Never seen anything like it, or heard anything quite as bad. His best bit of playing was when he went into a fill and slipped on his stool. That was almost in time!

I've had singers complain to me they can't hear their voice coming out the bass bins .. which are low passed at 80Hz or so

Singers who wanted to use their expensive studio condenser mic's in a live environment .. standing in a pub 2 feet in front of a drum kit.

Insane volumes of monitoring is normally the issue, and generally the older people get the more they want. It doesn't matter how good you are at ringing out the monitors, eventually you are cutting so many frequencies you might as well just turn the thing down.

But we all start somewhere, the trick is to learn quickly and try and see the whole picture, not just your own need.

Agreed. And this is why God created in-ear monitoring.

Danny1969 · February 2023

CaseOfAce said:

Danny1969 said:

There's none so strange as folk. I was hired to live record a covers band once and was shocked to find that the drummer mic'ed himself up into his own PA and that sat either side behind him. Never seen anything like it, or heard anything quite as bad. His best bit of playing was when he went into a fill and slipped on his stool. That was almost in time!

There's a great interview somewhere on the web about an irish band who supported Van Halen on tour.
On the first day they go up on stage - no monitors...nothing...

They are there wondering how they are gonna hear themselves and discover that the headliners don't use floor monitors or in-ears - they had an entire PA pointing at the stage for MONITORING purposes... as well as the PA for audience out front.

... and yes they said it was blistering loud when they used it...

I know that band, the guy who gave the interview has a posh watch channel now.

Yeah that's how VH played ... with a PA onstage and Eddie insanely loud. DLR never stood a chance and blew his voice out within 5 years.

fastonebaz · February 2023

We spend around 10mins on sound check at pub gigs. I find there to be very little variability between pub venues. We've long since had our settings marked and just make minor tweaks to suit the layout. Almost never touch settings during the gig either. As our ears get numbed during the gig it can be tempting to turn up but it's important to be aware of that and avoid doing so.

FarleyUK · February 2023

If anyone else needed some proof that the drummer is a complete arsehole..... just got a lovely passive-aggressive WhatsApp from him because he's seen that I'm starting up another band.

It's taking a lot of self-control to be the bigger man here and not just launch into a tirade about all the issues etc.!

RocknRollDave · February 2023

FarleyUK said:

If anyone else needed some proof that the drummer is a complete arsehole..... just got a lovely passive-aggressive WhatsApp from him because he's seen that I'm starting up another band.

It's taking a lot of self-control to be the bigger man here and not just launch into a tirade about all the issues etc.!

The best way for him to take the whole situation is that you both wanted different things from the band and have agreed to disagree*.

(*Where did I get that phrase from? I want to say 70's/ 80's TV show Winner Takes All?)

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Live gig EQ frustration

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