Live gig EQ frustration

FarleyUK · January 2023

We had a gig on Saturday at a venue we've played before. The bass player owns the PA and digital mixer, so he's 'in charge' of live mixing. His version of 'mixing' results in everyone having so many frequencies removed that it's just a muddy mess out front. I've tried to help before, but he refuses to listen (I used to mix both of my old bands when we played live, so have some idea of what to do).

At the start of set 2, he spent 30 minutes - no exaggeration - trying to fix very loud feedback that was happening, resulting in punters leaving the pub and the drummer almost punching him, as well as the landlord getting visibly pissed off. The 'fix' was to pretty much reduce every frequency for the singer above 3k and drop her volume right down (and she isn't a very powerful singer anyway).

This then resulted in my guitar being way louder than the singer (for a change!), much to the annoyance of her husband (who decided he'd wear a 'crew' t shirt for the gig.... don't get me started). I suggested maybe as he's 'crew' he should be sorting the sound.

I've now cancelled our future gigs and 'suggested' that the band need to sort this out, as it keeps happening, and it's unprofessional, embarrassing and quite honestly bloody frustrating. I'm also refusing to do another gig unless we pay for a dedicated sound engineer to come along and sort it all out.

Feel like a bit of a diva, but as Steve Morse told me - you shouldn't put up with anything that detracts from the live performance.

Grrrrrrrrr.

fretmeister · January 2023

FOH engineers should always be viewed as part of the band for the night.

You wouldn't tolerate a player who was that bad at the job so don't tolerate the amateur part time soundman either.

CaseOfAce · January 2023

Personally we never mic up each instrument - and only put vocals and kick drum thru the PA speakers on sticks and used our own backline to fill the venues.
It's completely against the wisdom that thou shalt mic everything up / this is the way it ought to be done - but:

a) we don't want to fork out for a FOH engineer (if we could even find someone who wants to do it) and
b) it would be complete overkill for most of the rooms we play.

It's also way simpler / easier setup and teardown and avoids the hot mess you encountered that night? Worth a go?

digitalscream · January 2023

Sounds like the fix might actually be to move her position relative to the speakers and monitors, change the direction the speakers are pointing, and/or get her a more directional mic.

mrkb · January 2023

Does the singer use a fixed mic stand position or is she one of those divas that wants to walk around with it in her hand?

Roland · January 2023

Have you tried booking a village hall, or somewhere similar, and rehearsing with a full PA? You can establish, and save, a basic setup for your digital mixer. In the days before digital mixers I used to photograph the sliders and dials.

You can record and play back a couple of songs to check that you’re all happy with the mix. The saved mix is then your starting position for a venue mix

mudslide73 · January 2023

Sounds like you need a new band.

fretmeister · January 2023

mrkb said:

Does the singer use a fixed mic stand position or is she one of those divas engaging entertainers that wants to walk around with it in her hand?

Fixed that.

Danny1969 · January 2023

I expect your bass player has read that subtractive EQ is often the best option and that can be right but if you subtract too much with a low value of Q then you are basically just turning something down rather than surgically EQ'ing it.

You mention She's not a very powerful singer. This is what we call too low a PFL level. That can be a problem that needs a lot of thought but it's not something that's generally solvable by EQ alone. First of all consider the mic, the mic technique and the placement of the speaker and foldback.

For a general mic like a 58 and a softish singer holding the mic in TV mode (below face) at a typical pub gig there is as much drums going in that mic as there is vocal. So try and get the singer to be right on the mic and get her as far from the drums as possible.
Put the FOH speakers as far forward as you can ... not level with the band and certainly not behind the level of the vocal mic.

If you have to use a wedge for the singer than move it until it's in as much of the mic's dead zone as poss. IEM's might seem an advantage here but generally once people can actually hear themselves with IEM's properly they sing quieter with doesn't help with the first issue of too little PLF level off the vocal for a small congested setup.

Then in general a highpass at 120Hz ish, a small cut with low Q around 4 to 500Hz ish and a low pass at 12K ish will generally suit most female vocals. It depends on the singer, the type of PA as well but it's a good starting point.

I've seen this kind of thing happen loads of times. Especially with people like your bass player with "all the gear but no idea" ... tempers fray, people lose heart etc but a bit of common sense and some faint praise even if it's underserved will take the sting out of telling them they need to stop doing what they are doing.

FarleyUK · January 2023

Thanks all, appreciate the input.

For extra details - the singer and I both use IEMs. The drummer doesn't have IEMs or a monitor, and relies on hearing the vocals through volume alone, and I have to bring a backline.... even though I run my AXE FX through the PA anyway. Don't get me started on that.... check out my old post about him almost coming to blows with a local sound engineer I know.....

The bass is not mic'd up at all, and the speakers are in front of all of us. I think the singer has an SM58, and she never moves around.

Stuckfast · January 2023

That sounds like a very strange setup! So the vocals have to be turned up super loud in the FOH because that's the only way the drummer can hear them? Are there no stage monitors at all?

FarleyUK · January 2023

Stuckfast said:

That sounds like a very strange setup! So the vocals have to be turned up super loud in the FOH because that's the only way the drummer can hear them? Are there no stage monitors at all?

Pretty much....!!

I've told the drummer more times than I can count that he needs to get a monitor sorted out, but he always comes up with some excuse.

TBH, after having stood my ground, they've all gone quiet; I expect I'll be kicked out, which feels like it might be a blessing in disguise!

jasonbone75 · January 2023

Sounds like the best thing that could happen to you! Life is too short for putting up with that infantile nonsense.

CaseOfAce · January 2023

Farley - why don't you just bring along a stage monitor - plonk it in front of your drummer.
Feed a signal from the mixer into that - and your drummer will hear both VOCALS and GUITAR?
That way you don't have to bring separate guitar backline either?
Done.

How's your bass player hearing the vocals and guitar if he's not using in-ears or wedge monitors?

I do actually feel sorry for the bass player - no wonder he's wrestling with on stage mixing duties if he's whacking up FOH mains to allow your drummer to hear vocals?!!? Good grief.

Stuckfast · January 2023

That's bonkers! Unless everyone is on IEMs there definitely needs to be some on-stage monitoring. I'm not surprised it's a struggle to mix.

stickyfiddle · January 2023

It all sounds like a shambles!

I'm in the middle of the start of a new band and trying to work out what kit we need, and what of that we need to buy and what we might be able to hire. But at no point is anyone trying to compromise on kit - we need to be able to hear ourselves, as do the audience!

maltingsaudio · January 2023

This is a handy app for helping you guess where the feedback is occurring may help
https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/audio-feedback-trainer/id1538864563

fretmeister · January 2023

You've got IEMs and the drummer won't get his own set or a monitor speaker?

What a tool.

ICBM · January 2023

Sounds like complete chaos.

First, choose *one* approach - either everyone has IEMs, or no IEMs and wedge/side monitors, and either everything through the PA or only the vocals through the PA. Then, either you as the designated soundman or the band collectively get whatever gear you need to do whichever approach you've chosen. Mixing and matching is not going to work when you have idiocy like the drummer refusing to have a monitor.

Personally, for small pub gigs when the unamplified kit is likely to be the loudest source I think backline and old-school monitoring still works best, with very minimal instrument reinforcement through the PA at most - more to produce better dispersion if needed than to 'mix'. At this point you have to pay attention to the physical placement and direction of the amps (especially guitar) and their EQ or you get hot spots and volume wars. You want the guitar amps raised and not pointing directly at the punters, the bass amp on the floor and preferably not pointing directly at the punters, and enough wedge monitors to cover everyone - two or three across the front and one for the drummer is usually fine. It's also usually a good idea to listen to someone you trust out front to tell you if anything is too loud/quiet or sounding bad *and be prepared to adjust if they say so*... way too many musicians won't, when they're in the worst position to be able to tell.

However, you have a problem here - the bass player is already the designated PA owner/sound engineer and is obviously clueless. So either you need to convince him to take advice (which sounds like it isn't working), relinquish that role, replace him, or leave the band if the first three are not possible.

mrkb · January 2023

fretmeister said:

mrkb said:

Does the singer use a fixed mic stand position or is she one of those divas engaging entertainers that wants to walk around with it in her hand?

Fixed that.

I get your point. One persons “ear piercing feedback” is another’s “engaging entertainment”

shufflebeat · January 2023

FarleyUK said:

...he spent 30 minutes - no exaggeration - trying to fix very loud feedback that was happening...

There isn't really any excuse for this. A few rehearsals with someone who understands the relevant laws of physics should suggest a way forward.

A badly balanced system or a badly arranged stage can't be remedied by radical EQ. System design and mic/speaker choice/placement need to be dealt with first.

Hoof · January 2023

Definitely sounds like the wrong approach with PA. If you're playing pubs then there's no need to be putting backline through the PA. Vocals and bass drum (maybe some bass guitar if his amp isn't great) only. Guitar does not need a volume boost or reinforcement at a pub gig. Nor does snare/toms/cymbals.

Sounds like the bassist see's the PA as his domain. If he doesn't know what he's doing (and 30 mins to fix feedback that wasn't there in the first set proves this) then that is a problem that can only be solved with some frank chats and simplifying things.

You definitely need monitors. 2 at the front and 1 side fill for the drummer. Vocals only in these.

Again. Simplify. A fully mic'd set up requires a more sophisticated PA and an engineer who knows that he's doing to both set it up and man the desk during the performance.

slacker · January 2023

For pub gigs you only need vocals through a pa and some monitors. Imho. For larger gigs get a sound engineer.

I would leave before you are kicked out. A flounce is therapeutic.

fastonebaz · January 2023

In my band we put vocals and kick through the pa and also a little bit of guitar for extra sound spread, otherwise it's all backline and apart from the singers monitor wedge we have no iems or other monitors. We can all hear the singer fine and drummer can hear everything OK. We play loud rock in pub venues. Maybe with a 4 piece it's easier to hear each instrument clearly.?

EricTheWeary · January 2023

I’m slightly stuck on the drummer not wanting a monitor, it’s something that drummers I’ve played with have been obsessive about having. I’m now imagining someone bashing away at the back and paying no attention to the song. Maybe not.

Obviously you all need to agree on what the set up should be and have a ‘dress rehearsal’ in a village hall as Roland said. If you can’t borrow a sound engineer borrow someone with trusted ears to sit out front.

FarleyUK · January 2023

EricTheWeary said:

I’m slightly stuck on the drummer not wanting a monitor, it’s something that drummers I’ve played with have been obsessive about having. I’m now imagining someone bashing away at the back and paying no attention to the song. Maybe not.
Obviously you all need to agree on what the set up should be and have a ‘dress rehearsal’ in a village hall as Roland said. If you can’t borrow a sound engineer borrow someone with trusted ears to sit out front.

I know, right?

He refuses to use a wedge monitor as he doesn't like them, and refuses to use IEMs as he feels it disconnects him from what he's playing. He's a good drummer, but he's pretty bloody difficult.

Musicwolf · January 2023

FarleyUK said:

He's a good drummer, but he's pretty bloody difficult.

Maybe if you are Ginger Baker you can be a good drummer and 'difficult' but for a pub band to be classed as 'good' requires you to be not 'difficult'. It's hard enough holding a band together / maintaining momentum with reasonable people but when everyone else has to work around one person it's a bloody nightmare.

When you say that he refuses a monitor does he actually refuse to use one or is he being asked to buy one and that's why he's putting up obstacles?

ElectricXII · January 2023

Our band played a 100 seater club with dance floor on Saturday night. We had vocals and kick in the FOH and two wedges, one for the singer, and one for me for my acoustic and BV. Next time we play this venue we'll be in the bigger, 200 seat room, and we might use a bigger PA, and mic the guitar amps, DI the bass, etc. However the smaller setup would probably still cut it.

It sounds like you need to lose your bass player and drummer!

fretmeister · January 2023

slacker said:

For pub gigs you only need vocals through a pa and some monitors. Imho. For larger gigs get a sound engineer.

I would leave before you are kicked out. A flounce is therapeutic.

I always want the kick and the high hat in the PA as well. Maybe that's a bassists' POV, but I find it very useful.

Good for the mix too - the acoustic sound of the kick can be damped down with cushions etc and the PA can HPF any excessive low end then. Far too many excessive bass mixes in small gigs these days.

stickyfiddle · January 2023

I much prefer a lower stage volume and everything in the PA, personally - that's especially true of my own amp, which I really like to hear from in front of me rather than behind. I can get by without all the drums in monitors but I generally want kick, snare and hats as a minimum unless completely impossible - especially when I'm playing bass. At our first gig back in Nov I missed a cue and fucked up the intro of the last song because I could hear the drums.

I always find it odd that musicians seem happy to accept massive compromises when it comes to hearing themselves play. I don't know how folks cope.

CaseOfAce · January 2023

Not saying that's the case here..
but worth considering...

What's wrong with this picture? -

Guitarist walks into the venue with his guitar bag, modeller du jour and IEMs in a carry case.
Takes out guitar, plugs lead into rack unit and lead out to mixer. Goes to bar.

Meanwhile drummer had arrived at the venue an hour earlier - 3 trips back and forth to car carrying cases and then setting up.
Drummer asks guitarist. err.. how I am I going to hear your guitar on stage.?
Guitarist responds "Err dunno - you could maybe fork out and bring your own monitor or buy yourself a pair of IEMs?"

Drummer asks same question to singer who's also breezed in arrived late at venue and plugged their IEMs in and set up their mic stand - how am I going to hear your vocals at the back here?
Singer responds "Err.. dunno..." etc...

Drummer not happy.

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Live gig EQ frustration

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