Guitars "opening up"

LastMantra · November 2022

You'll also get better at playing it so it will sound sweeter with time.

Plus you'll form a bond with it over time.

BillDL · November 2022

LastMantra said:

You'll also get better at playing it so it will sound sweeter with time.

Plus you'll form a bond with it over time.

This is very true and could be, in part, one of the contributory factors of an acoustic guitar that "sounds" better and better if you play it regularly and often. You get more and more familiar with the feel and idiosyncrasies of a particular guitar and discover how to extract the smallest of extra nuances from it over time.

WezV · November 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

So the general consensus from people who support the idea is that the wood gets more supple after being vibrated for ages, like the suspension of a speaker gets bendier. It's obviously a MUCH smaller movement than a speaker cone, but it's physically possible.

Wood doesn't get more supple. Quite the opposite. Wood "plasticizes" and becomes brittle as it ages making it stiffer.

Wood that is being used for one function will set into that function as it hardens over time. Pluck on some really old acoustics whilst tuning and you will notice them spring to life when they reach pitch, more so than a new guitar which will often just get more in tune with no real change in volume or tone

However, I concur with many others that freshly constructed guitars never sound their best. Some are okay, all get better in the first days/months etc. This isn't to do with the wood stiffening as that takes a very long time. It could just be those cellulose fibers settling into their new function. Some guitars do reward regular play

BillDL · November 2022

WezV said:

Wood that is being used for one function will set into that function as it hardens over time. ..... It could just be those cellulose fibers settling into their new function.

That is one of the best descriptions / explanations I have read. When I referred to "softening" in an earlier comment I was really trying to describe the wood (and comparison with a speaker cone) being vibrated / undulated / moved in a certain way through repetitive use use until it gets better at moving in that way.

I wonder whether the wooden tone blocks of a Marimba don't sound as lively when new as they will after continual playing for a while?

What about metal? A brand new church bell vs one that has been rung for many years? The flattened and tuned metal strips that are plucked with the thumbs on an Mbira?

sev112 · November 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Interesting - and well done to all for not turning into an argument (I realised my post would potentially divide opinions)

So the general consensus from people who support the idea is that the wood gets more supple after being vibrated for ages, like the suspension of a speaker gets bendier. It's obviously a MUCH smaller movement than a speaker cone, but it's physically possible.

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though. I can't deny that it's possible that the wood changes (breaks down) a bit structurally from vibration (although how much it affects the sound I'm not sure) but I really can't buy into the idea that it somehow "heals up" and reverts to its original state if it isn't used regularly - I think that really is Emperor's New Clothes territory.

This phenomenon is known in materials science and soil mechanics - materials “strain-soften” or “strain-harden” (which means their stiffness goes up or down) in relation the the loads applied (and un-applied) to them, the frequency of that loading and duration that loading. Some materials also “creep” which means that they strain under constant load and become stiffer. So there’s almost certainly a combination of those going on. Now that certainly applies to metals and to over-consolidated clays of the Eocene era in geological time - whether they apply to spruce, rosewood, ebony and maple I don’t know

BillDL · November 2022

That stated as a wiz, but I felt compelled to change it to a wow. You are most certainly not as daft as the others say you are

How on earth (excuse the pun) do you know this stuff? The scope of combined knowledge pooled together in this one forum is impressive.

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

sev112 said:

.

This phenomenon is known in materials science and soil mechanics - materials “strain-soften” or “strain-harden” (which means their stiffness goes up or down) in relation the the loads applied (and un-applied) to them, the frequency of that loading and duration that loading.

I know about that when applied to metals and the like (often known as "work hardening"), and usually not a good thing for the structure involved. But I'd never really thought it applied to wood - if you bend wood beyond its elastic limits (which isn't far for a piece of spruce) it just gradually gets weaker as fibres snap.

Lots of people are sticking up for the belief that something changes though that affects the sound somehow, whatever the actual physical explanation. And that it's not just the wood aging, but affected by how much the guitar is played. And not just because people get used to a guitar and learn to get better sounds out of it (which has always been my explanation for the "opening up" that people talk about). I think I'm unlikely to experience it myself because I'm probably never going to buy a guitar posh enough (lightly-built enough) for it to be noticeable - and playing somebody else's guitar won't help because I wouldn't know what it was like before. But perhaps it actually is a real thing after all.

sev112 · November 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

sev112 said:

.

This phenomenon is known in materials science and soil mechanics - materials “strain-soften” or “strain-harden” (which means their stiffness goes up or down) in relation the the loads applied (and un-applied) to them, the frequency of that loading and duration that loading.

I know about that when applied to metals and the like (often known as "work hardening"), and usually not a good thing for the structure involved. But I'd never really thought it applied to wood - if you bend wood beyond its elastic limits (which isn't far for a piece of spruce) it just gradually gets weaker as fibres snap.

Ah this is good, I was doing some soil mechanics teaching this morning so it’s got the old brain cells going.

but what happens if we load , cyclically/ repeatedly, the timber but at lower than the elastic limit (which is where we are with guitars)? : in soil mechanics, we have a concept of “threshold stress” - it is a stress much lower (usually, say 50% but differs for different soils) than elastic limit, but of you cycle loads below the threshold it’s fine, but if you cycle loads above the threshold you get cumulative strain and weakening

I might have a look in my bookcases for some timber design references and see what they say

Dave_Mc · November 2022

Being (reluctantly) serious for a second- I remember trying a bunch of acoustics a few years back, and at least some of them seemed like they'd been on the shelf for a good while without being played. After being played for a few minutes they seemed to play and sound a lot better- and in one case, we went back to the shop a few days later to try the same guitar again and it still felt better. Not sure whether it's a temporary thing- I would guess if the guitar were left for long enough it would've gone back to the state I originally found it in. It's also entirely possible I was imagining it!

Tannin · November 2022

@Dave_Mc your experience is just too regular a thing to write off as "imagination". I have very much the same thing here with my little collection, especially when I go away. Usually I'll take one of the 7 guitars and a few weeks later, when I get back, some of the others are not nearly the sweet players they usually are. It varies from one guitar to another.

After not playing for some weeks:

Much worse: Maton Messiah (spruce and rosewood). I think this one more than the others because it is fairly new. I noticed that the stiffness was much less pronounced after my most recent trip, perhaps because it is settling in more now.

A bit worse: Cole Clark Angel (Huon Pine and Silky Maple), Guild CO-2 (Red Spruce and mahogany). The Angel, having a Huon Pine top (technically a softwood but about as hard as mahogany) doesn't change as much as some. The Guild, having that very stiff Red Spruce ("Adirondack") top, never really opens up as much as it could, so it just goes from "very stiff" to "stiff" when you play it. It might actually benefit from a sound thrashing for a few months, or even a go on a Tone-rite?

Not much difference: Tacoma Thunderhawk (spruce and maple), Maton SRS (cedar and Queensland Maple), Mineur (Engleman Spruce and Tiger Myrtle). I explain these three this way. The Thunderhawk is so big (it is an enormous jumbo) that the spruce top flexes anyway and doesn't need to be "opened up". It is also 15 years old now. The Maton is Cedar. The Mineur is very lightly built and has a fairly soft Engleman Spruce top.

(Not mentioned the Maton WA May, which is so new I haven't really got a handle on its habits yet.)

Dave_Mc · November 2022

Yeah that happens to me too when I, er, don't practise as much as I should!

I wonder if it could be anything to do with the strings as well? It feels like they loosen up a bit after playing for a few minutes (though I guess that could just be the guitar).

A plectrum disintegrated on me the other day (well, the tip did). I thought the strings had gone bad or something, then I looked down at the plectrum and the tip wasn't there any more. I think that was just because it was quite cold, though, rather than lack of playing (it was a thin celluloid Fender one).

BillDL · November 2022

Aha, yes ! Plectrums ("plectra" sounds like a suckerfish in a tank, so I'll stick with "plectrums"). Do they "open up" with continued use?

p90fool · November 2022

BahHumbug said:

I read a James Taylor interview once, in which he reckoned that guitars that have been well toured eventually change to the point of being unusable - a big loss of volume and tone. I have friend with a very well used guitar that has done just that. He still plays it though cos he loves it so much.

That big loss of volume and tone in a well-used acoustic guitar is almost always loose bracing.

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

sev112 said:

...
I might have a look in my bookcases for some timber design references and see what they say

I'd be interested in that - I'd never thought of those sorts of effects relating to wood.

Of course, there are really two discussions going on here: "do guitars change their sound with use?", and if they do then "what causes those changes?". Both equally interesting.

guitarjack66 · November 2022

I just wish my missus legs would open as much as an acoustic guitar! At lease they dont wait for xmas and special birthdays.

bertie · November 2022

guitarjack66 said:

I just wish my missus legs would open as much as an acoustic guitar! At lease they dont wait for xmas and special birthdays.

you not related to @Joneve ; are you ?

drofluf · November 2022

guitarjack66 said:

I just wish my missus legs would open as much as an acoustic guitar! At lease they dont wait for xmas and special birthdays.

I’d be happy with the ukulele equivalent…

Dave_Mc · November 2022

BillDL said:

Aha, yes ! Plectrums ("plectra" sounds like a suckerfish in a tank, so I'll stick with "plectrums"). Do they "open up" with continued use?

They just kind of serrate (or disintegrate!)

TheMarlin · November 2022

bertie said:

TheMarlin said:

. Then I put it back in its case and ignore it for another year.

which is why you're not noticing any difference, playing/vibration on the soundboard is as much a factor as time, on wood fibres opening up

I play hollow body electrics all the time, I can’t say I hear any difference in those either.

I’ll have to get some snake oil.

ToneControl · November 2022

Tannin said:

Any luthier will tell you that a brand new guitar sounds awful the first time he puts strings on it and tunes it up. This is so well established that it's not even a question.

As to the longer-term changes, once the huge changes of the first few weeks are over, they are harder to see and measure.

Some woods need longer
IIRC Koa can take years to fully improve

ToneControl · November 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Interesting - and well done to all for not turning into an argument (I realised my post would potentially divide opinions)

So the general consensus from people who support the idea is that the wood gets more supple after being vibrated for ages, like the suspension of a speaker gets bendier. It's obviously a MUCH smaller movement than a speaker cone, but it's physically possible.

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though. I can't deny that it's possible that the wood changes (breaks down) a bit structurally from vibration (although how much it affects the sound I'm not sure) but I really can't buy into the idea that it somehow "heals up" and reverts to its original state if it isn't used regularly - I think that really is Emperor's New Clothes territory.

I have a Brazilian/Adirondack dread, which does go to sleep a bit
After it's been unplayed for a while, when I fingerpick it, I end up tearing my nails up to get the sound I want.
However, if I strum it hard with a plectrum for 5-10 minutes first, or use a tonerite, I can play it the way I want without tearing up my nails, the wood responds to a lighter touch.

Luthiers on USA forums have confirmed that very stiff woods like adirondack can behave like this

Conversely, my cedar, redwood and Koa guitars seem to need less "waking up" before playing

bertie · November 2022

TheMarlin said:
I play hollow body electrics all the time, I can’t say I hear any difference in those either.

* sigh *

jellyroll · November 2022

I *think* I've noticed some of my guitars opening up after a couple of years, most specifically a Martin OM21....but I can also accept that it might just be in my head.

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

ToneControl said:

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Interesting - and well done to all for not turning into an argument (I realised my post would potentially divide opinions)

So the general consensus from people who support the idea is that the wood gets more supple after being vibrated for ages, like the suspension of a speaker gets bendier. It's obviously a MUCH smaller movement than a speaker cone, but it's physically possible.

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though. I can't deny that it's possible that the wood changes (breaks down) a bit structurally from vibration (although how much it affects the sound I'm not sure) but I really can't buy into the idea that it somehow "heals up" and reverts to its original state if it isn't used regularly - I think that really is Emperor's New Clothes territory.

I have a Brazilian/Adirondack dread, which does go to sleep a bit
After it's been unplayed for a while, when I fingerpick it, I end up tearing my nails up to get the sound I want.
However, if I strum it hard with a plectrum for 5-10 minutes first, or use a tonerite, I can play it the way I want without tearing up my nails, the wood responds to a lighter touch.

Luthiers on USA forums have confirmed that very stiff woods like adirondack can behave like this

Conversely, my cedar, redwood and Koa guitars seem to need less "waking up" before playing

That's really weird (as I said, I'm a bit sceptical, but may be just that I haven't had a guitar that does it, so I'm open to other opinions).

What is it that changes in your opinion in those 10 minutes of strumming? More volume, more high frequency, more low frequency, just sounds generally "better"? And how long does it take to revert to "not so good" state?

I'm a woodwind player, so used to those instruments needing warming up before they play at their best, but that's down to physical expansion of the tubes and variations in the way the air column vibrates at different temperatures. The air inside a guitar isn't going to be moved around enough for heat to have any effect, so any sound changes must be down to the wood itself.

And this is going to sound like a "people trying to justify their expensive purchase" accusation, but it honestly is a genuine question: Would you say that lighter-built guitars or certain kinds of wood (so therefore often on the more expensive side) exhibit this phenomenon more. I've not had any posh guitars so that may be a reason why I've never noticed it (to the point of not believing the effect actually exists). Perhaps I need to go into a shop and see if they'll let me hammer one of their top-end acoustics for 10 minutes and see if the sound changes

citesquestion · November 2022

Working on a robotic ageing device that opens up the acoustics by playing Smoke on the Water at 300 dpm for six months

crunchman · November 2022

The structure of wood changes as it ages. I found an academic paper on it once. They tested very old wood - beams from buildings that were hundreds of years old. There were definite changes in the structure compared with recently cut wood of the same species.

I've read in other places that resins in the wood crystallise over time, and that the wood gets harder and stiffer. I think I remember reading that it can also hold less moisture once these changes occur, which makes it lighter.

The current trend for roasting or torrefying wood is trying to bring those changes about in a new instrument.

I do remember reading that the wood at Martin in the pre WW2 "golden era" was stored up in the rafters in the factory. It used to get very hot in that factory in the summer, and would have been very hot indeed up in the rafters. It would have been a slower and gentler process than roasting in a kiln, but the wood was up there for a long time - probably years in a lot of cases. The author of that piece was suggesting that was one of the reasons that Martins from that era sound so good.

Those structural changes in the wood will take a very long time, but I've heard guitars change over a much shorter time frame. There are normally very significant changes in the first year or two. I suspect that is some combination of vibration and the guitar settling in. Some guitars definitely seem to sound better after a bit of robust playing if they haven't been played for a while.

The other thing to note is that it's not just limited to expensive solid wood guitars. I have an early 80s Japanese guitar with laminated back and sides. I got it for Christmas in 1982, so it's 40 years old now. It has definitely improved over time. It's still not as good as my Martin though.

Edit: I'd rather have a good new guitar than a bad older one. When I bought my Martin new (sometime around 2007), that particular model was around the same price as a second hand early 70s D28. I tried a few early 70s D28s, and my one was a far better sounding guitar, even when it was new. It's better still now.

Tannin · November 2022

So wood gets harder and stiffer over time?

I'm over 60 and my wife doesn't believe you.

TheBigDipper · November 2022

I can't say I've got the science knowledge to explain anything, but I've got some anecdotal observations....

If I haven't played a solid top acoustic for a few months (and there's a couple I own that often fall into that category) then they do not sound at their best at first. Playing them for 20mins/day over a few days does seem to make them sound better, and that lasts as long as I'm playing them regularly. Then they go back into their cases and after a couple of months we start again.

My main acoustic gets played most days. String changes make the big tonal difference with that.

I've never noticed that on any solid electric or any laminate top semi acoustic electric. I've not owned a laminate top acoustic for 40 years so I've no idea about those.

Out of interest and boredom, I once bought one of those electric vibrating thingies that you slide under the strings near the bridge and leave running overnight. That seemed to do something, too, but it's just too much faff for me to plan properly and use in advance. I know I still have it somewhere, but I don't use it any more.

Dave_Mc · November 2022

TheBigDipper said:
Out of interest and boredom, I once bought one of those electric vibrating thingies that you slide under the strings near the bridge and leave running overnight. That seemed to do something, too, but it's just too much faff for me to plan properly and use in advance. I know I still have it somewhere, but I don't use it any more.

Are you absolutely certain that's what that was for?

Vintage65 · November 2022

I don't know about guitars, but a vintage Cowbell definitely improves with age.

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Guitars "opening up"

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