Guitars "opening up"

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

Is this a real phenomenon, or is it just that when you've played a guitar a lot you get used to it and get better at extracting the best sound from it? I suspect the latter. I'm very sceptical of the "wood changes its structure due to vibration" theory - it may dry out a bit, but even that sounds pretty far-fetched when instruments are made from well-seasoned wood.

I can believe that really old guitars may have been made from wood that just isn't available now due to environmental concerns, and that wood may actually be better-sounding than most of the modern stuff (I have no personal experience of this, but at least it sounds possible), but do people genuinely believe a new guitar actually physically improves with playing? If so, what do you reckon improves, and why? I've even heard people claiming that a guitar that isn't played for a bit somehow sulks and reverts back to its less-good-sounding state.

I reckon my 10-year-old guitar (solid mahogany) sounds exactly the same now as it did when it was new - but of course I can't go back and compare so impossible to prove.

thomasross20 · November 2022

I think bass deepens and treble stays almost the same

Dave_Mc · November 2022

I hope not because, if it's true, the amount I practise probably means mine are closing up...

TheMarlin · November 2022

Magnets lose power over time, decades. So older electric guitars can sound different. I suspect the magnets have more to do with it than the wood. But I’m a cloth rated old goat, so take no notice of me.

Tannin · November 2022

^ Yep. Because acoustic guitars are made out of magnets.

BillDL · November 2022

Wood, as used in the soundboard of an acoustic guitar, is fibrous just like the cardboard cone of a speaker. A guitar soundboard vibrates and undulates. So does a speaker cone. A speaker starts out stiff, but the longer it is subjected to vibrations the softer the cardboard becomes. It's not through some magical realignment of the fibres in response to specific frequencies like some cosmic wave theory. The fibres won't, and couldn't, change their alignment in a guitar soundboard or a speaker cone, but the wood of a guitar soundboard will certainly be vibrated a lot more in certain areas than in others, and I am pretty confident that it will become more used to flexing the more it is vibrated. Whether this "loosening up" of the soundboard would be sufficient to be noticeable is where the argument really lies, and on that aspect I would have to say that I am on the fence. Everything has a fundamental frequency at which it will begin to vibrate sympathetically with a sound source at that frequency, and a hollow bodied guitar with a flexible soundboard (and to a lesser extent back) will do so quite readily. Imagine trying to bounce on a spring board or trampoline in a tempo that doesn't match their natural frequency. It doesn't work, but when you time it right it all comes together. If you were to subject a guitar to constant sound sources at specific frequencies with a view to trying to get the soundboard used to vibrating at those frequencies, would it make the guitar sound better? Who knows? I would have to see a controlled laboratory test.

Tannin · November 2022

Any luthier will tell you that a brand new guitar sounds awful the first time he puts strings on it and tunes it up. This is so well established that it's not even a question.

As to the longer-term changes, once the huge changes of the first few weeks are over, they are harder to see and measure.

stickyfiddle · November 2022

Long term, acoustic guitars definitely open up as they get used to being at tension and resonating at tension.

Short term I think is more guitar-dependent. My HD28 definitely feels a bit muffled if it sits unplayed for too long. Conversely my little Atkin is sweet and noisy every single time, even if it goes a month in the case

DavidR · November 2022

Another vote for acoustics (and classicals) opening up. It's a thing. Wood ages, glues age/change, frets wear. Opening up is probably best thought of as the substances from which your instrument is made drying and undergoing some molecular changes with time. And so, its resonant properties change too. Whether this is an 'improvement' depends on you because it is entirely subjective and varies from instrument to instrument and owner to owner. But it does change. IMHO.

sev112 · November 2022

I’m inclined to believe the concept of opening up and sounding better (and I’m looking forward to it on my new acoustic) , but I’m not completely convinced.

i understand that there are all sorts of structural and fixity and damping and vibration etc that change the more a new guitar gets played/ ages. What I don’t necessarily get is why this has to make a guitar sound better rather than worse. Greater soundboard vibrations possibly yes; loosening of joints/fixity I’m not so sure it would necessarily be better. Cellular changes in the wood I haven’t got a clue why that would be better or worse?

Tannin · November 2022

sev112 said:

I’m inclined to believe the concept of opening up and sounding better (and I’m looking forward to it on my new acoustic) , but I’m not completely convinced.

i understand that there are all sorts of structural and fixity and damping and vibration etc that change the more a new guitar gets played/ ages. What I don’t necessarily get is why this has to make a guitar sound better rather than worse. Greater soundboard vibrations possibly yes; loosening of joints/fixity I’m not so sure it would necessarily be better. Cellular changes in the wood I haven’t got a clue why that would be better or worse?

This is a key point. I think the answer is that good guitars get better, crappy ones don't, or they get worse. People have been making guitars for a long time, even without knowing the detailed ins and outs, any guitar maker worth his salt knows by experience how to make instruments which get better.

(Or that's my theory.)

DavidR · November 2022

sev112 said:

I’m inclined to believe the concept of opening up and sounding better (and I’m looking forward to it on my new acoustic) , but I’m not completely convinced.

i understand that there are all sorts of structural and fixity and damping and vibration etc that change the more a new guitar gets played/ ages. What I don’t necessarily get is why this has to make a guitar sound better rather than worse. Greater soundboard vibrations possibly yes; loosening of joints/fixity I’m not so sure it would necessarily be better. Cellular changes in the wood I haven’t got a clue why that would be better or worse?

Yeh. It's entirely possible that it won't be better. So, you spend yonks finding your ideal life partner and then the sound of it changes to one you like less! That happens. Of my two go to's, a Martin OM28 bought in 2018 has changed beautifully, it's a really lovely tone for me now. But an FG5 bought during the Covid has if anything gone slightly flatter. Still a great guitar but subtly different to when it first arrived. And yet a much cheaper FG830 bought as a spare a year ago just keeps getting better and better, even though it's at a different place to home and doesn't get played much. All bought new. C'est la vie!! That's guitars for you. :-)

BahHumbug · November 2022

I really dislike the term “opening up” when applied to acoustic guitars - it seems utterly meaningless. I prefer to think that they simply change.
I bought a Taylor 712ce in 2011. I loved it - it turned me from a mainly electric player to a mainly acoustic player. I played it a lot. I would describe its original tone as sparkly - strong and complex in mid range and top end - lots of overtones that really made it sound alive. A great fingerstyle guitar, it could do strumming but only just - those overtones made it a bit muddy.
11 years down the road it has changed considerably. The mid and top have mellowed a lot and it has more bass. It’s still good for fingerstyle, and can definitely do strumming now. Is it better? For me, it’s just different, still perfectly usable, but TBH I’d rather have its young self back.

guitarjack66 · November 2022

BahHumbug said:

I really dislike the term “opening up” when applied to acoustic guitars - it seems utterly meaningless. I prefer to think that they simply change.
I bought a Taylor 712ce in 2011. I loved it - it turned me from a mainly electric player to a mainly acoustic player. I played it a lot. I would describe its original tone as sparkly - strong and complex in mid range and top end - lots of overtones that really made it sound alive. A great fingerstyle guitar, it could do strumming but only just - those overtones made it a bit muddy.
11 years down the road it has changed considerably. The mid and top have mellowed a lot and it has more bass. It’s still good for fingerstyle, and can definitely do strumming now. Is it better? For me, it’s just different, still perfectly usable, but TBH I’d rather have its young self back.

Just like every man and wife would rather have their young,fitter,slimmer,prettier younger selves than what they have become! The secret is to become comfortable with that ageing.

Mellish · November 2022

I had a Hummingbird, sounded meh in the store. But I was convinced it had something...

First a setup cos the action was really high, so off to my setup guy. Then when I got it back home, I realised I had a lot of other jobs to do, so it hung on a wall.

The radio was on all day every day and, when I took it down maybe four weeks later (I swear it couldn't have beern more), it had changed. Had it opened up? I'll say yes. A great guitar and, foolishly, I sold it.

TheMarlin · November 2022

Tannin said:

^ Yep. Because acoustic guitars are made out of magnets.

I’ve never noticed any difference in my acoustic guitar. It was hand made about 15 year ago, still sound exactly the same (pretty darn fabulous). Then I put it back in its case and ignore it for another year.

bertie · November 2022

TheMarlin said:

. Then I put it back in its case and ignore it for another year.

which is why you're not noticing any difference, playing/vibration on the soundboard is as much a factor as time, on wood fibres opening up

BillDL · November 2022

I sing regularly to my guitar as it sits there on its stand. After doing this for many years it now plays in a Scottish accent.

bertie · November 2022

BillDL said:

I sing regularly to my guitar as it sits there on its stand. After doing this for many years it now plays in a Scottish accent.

wilf farts on mine , but that might be just a comment on my playing

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

Interesting - and well done to all for not turning into an argument (I realised my post would potentially divide opinions)

So the general consensus from people who support the idea is that the wood gets more supple after being vibrated for ages, like the suspension of a speaker gets bendier. It's obviously a MUCH smaller movement than a speaker cone, but it's physically possible.

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though. I can't deny that it's possible that the wood changes (breaks down) a bit structurally from vibration (although how much it affects the sound I'm not sure) but I really can't buy into the idea that it somehow "heals up" and reverts to its original state if it isn't used regularly - I think that really is Emperor's New Clothes territory.

bertie · November 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though.

that's obviously your prerogative. I just "believe" what 3 luthiers have told me (which of course, may be incorrect) as Id assume they know much more about it than I

Soupman · November 2022

I reckon my Lowden 'opened up'.
Read somewhere that cedar did this more quickly than spruce. I also remember reading this 'aging process' was partly why Stradivarius violins were so good.
No defining argument, and I'm not sure if solid top/ laminate b&s 'open up' as noticeably, but my feeling is that the tight sound of a new guitar does expand with playing over a few weeks.

I will add this may be nostalgia. It's been a while since I added to my small collection, I'm happy with what I've got!

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

bertie said:

DartmoorHedgehog said:

I'm really not convinced by the "having to keep a guitar regularly played to maintain the sound" idea though.

that's obviously your prerogative. I just "believe" what 3 luthiers have told me (which of course, may be incorrect) as Id assume they know much more about it than I

No problem mate - we can disagree and still get on

Makes things more interesting if people have different opinions (and I'm certainly open to having my opinion changed by somebody else's reasoning).

I do accept that any changes in the wood are probably more noticeable on lighter-built guitars, which by design take more effort to build and therefore tend to be on the expensive side. I've never had (or even played) a really posh guitar (probably nothing over about £500 new price, certainly not in the thousands) so it's well possible that none of my instruments have been the type that exhibit a noticeable effect.

BahHumbug · November 2022

I haven’t heard the ‘playning to maintain the tone idea’ before, and it sounds like rubbish to me. My experience is that playing them changes the sound; not playing them does not change the sound.
I read a James Taylor interview once, in which he reckoned that guitars that have been well toured eventually change to the point of being unusable - a big loss of volume and tone. I have friend with a very well used guitar that has done just that. He still plays it though cos he loves it so much.

guitarjack66 · November 2022

Surely the change,if any,is in the ears of the beholder? I'd imagine well made and most likely, expensive, will change more due to the materials used and cheaper,eg laminate,would keep their tone the same? It is possible you would go off the sound as it aged but string changes would probably be my first port of call before making any change.

bertie · November 2022

guitarjack66 said:

Surely the change,if any,is in the ears of the beholder?

absolutely - the thing being discussed is the opening up of the wood (whether through age or vibration) - now whether the sound/tone of an "opened up top" is better/more pleasing is purely and 100% subjective - no-one's arguing that ( I dont think

)

DavidR · November 2022

Yep. Defo a thing. People who are a lot brainier than Mr Brainy from Brainsville have studied it -

Effects of aging on the vibrational properties of wood | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

malcolmkindness · November 2022

BahHumbug said:

I haven’t heard the ‘playning to maintain the tone idea’ before, and it sounds like rubbish to me. My experience is that playing them changes the sound; not playing them does not change the sound.
I read a James Taylor interview once, in which he reckoned that guitars that have been well toured eventually change to the point of being unusable - a big loss of volume and tone. I have friend with a very well used guitar that has done just that. He still plays it though cos he loves it so much.

Reverend Gary Davis used to maintain that guitars wore out and he needed a new one every few years.

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

DavidR said:

Yep. Defo a thing. People who are a lot brainier than Mr Brainy from Brainsville have studied it -

Effects of aging on the vibrational properties of wood | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

That's interesting - one to read when I'm not supposed to be working by the look of it - looks quite heavy

Quick speed-read of the first bit suggests they're mostly talking about aging (i.e. effects of time) rather than being altered by vibration, but they may get into that later on. I'll have a read later.

DartmoorHedgehog · November 2022

malcolmkindness said:

BahHumbug said:

I haven’t heard the ‘playning to maintain the tone idea’ before, and it sounds like rubbish to me. My experience is that playing them changes the sound; not playing them does not change the sound.
I read a James Taylor interview once, in which he reckoned that guitars that have been well toured eventually change to the point of being unusable - a big loss of volume and tone. I have friend with a very well used guitar that has done just that. He still plays it though cos he loves it so much.

Reverend Gary Davis used to maintain that guitars wore out and he needed a new one every few years.

That does seem to support the "something changes with use" idea - even if some people think it's a beneficial change and some prefer how it starts off.

BillDL · November 2022

After hours of playing songs about anxiety, depression and suicide I finally managed to get my normally reticent and insular guitar to open up.

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