Intonation issue / NGD

TheBigDipper · December 2022

@thomasross20 I've been enjoying (is that the right word?) this thread and can sense a level of despondency creeping in. Stay strong! :-)

Acoustics are "engineering plus materials" in a way that electrics are not. You know that. When you buy new acoustics above a certain price point, you're buying potential, in a product made of wood. It's frustrating, but ultimately rewarding. No-one remembers the bad guitars. No-one remembers the work they did to make a great guitar absolutely fabulous. They just enjoy playing the nicest guitar they've ever owned.

I'm not telling you what to do but I'd love to help you get your own head around you deciding what's best for you.

You didn't travel to Essex to try the guitar out first. Could you consider that a saving in your time and money which you can use to pay for the final fettling of the guitar - to your specification and preferences - with a luthier nearby, who will be a good person to have a relationship with over the years? Turning a factory-built product into a personal one?

You know if you had gone down to Peach and tried several of the same model that they'd all be different, anyway. ;-)

Good luck in your decision, fella.

thomasross20 · December 2022

Wise words, for sure.. I'll see what Peach get back with but yeah, I'm thinking get it set up by local expert then it's local and will be perfect. In future, especially with acoustics, I would either make the trip or buy local to save this happening again. The hassle isn't worth the saved money, which maybe become moot, anyway.

After getting work done on my Avalon I decided to sell it. The neck was that tad too chunky for me and in blind tests (me playing, step daughter recording) I preferred the sound of my trusty old OM02 to the £££ Avalon! So off it went. Cue hours of GAS and research. Thought about £5k+ guitars but why when I know I like Larrivee neck carve and they're perfect middle ground price vs what you get. Got the OM05 but intonation issue. The E & B were so far out it hurt. Bummer as was stunning. Something about it hurt my ears - sounds odd... but I'm sure non-lacquered guitars give off a different sonic profile. Satin guitars never hurt my ears. I know that sounds crazy but both the OM05 and the OM3 silver oak which I got rid of both hurt my ears.

Queue parlour guitar. Wasn't as small as I thought and sounded tinny. Ship back, waiting for refund.

So I go for the OM40 which is more bass, which is what I wanted. But now fret clanging issue. So frustrating - lots of time & money wasted. And I feel it's become more about the guitars then the playing. So many unfortunate issues with acoustic of late. I think in future I will budget 10% the cost of the guitar to go toward a pro setup.

thomasross20 · December 2022

Peach are saying I can ship back and they can try to fix but I will have to pay £30 if found to be no issue for return.

Or I can try to sort out with luthier and they can help contribute to cost after his analysis (this will end up being more expensive but more tailored).

--> I have opted for taking it to luthier who will assess and Peach can confirm any contribution. So I keep it local, no shipping it around in the freezing cold, and can get it set up perfectly for me over and above while it's with him.

Mellish · December 2022

£30 if found to be no issue?! We'll if it's buzzing there *is* an issue!

I get the feeling Peach would rather you *did* take it somewhere else. Still never mind cos you're sorted if you know a good luthier.

thomasross20 · December 2022

Luthier will get it sorted and set up for 11s and do anything over and above so if he finds the "warranty issue" (the buzz) then whatever Peach can put toward it then great, and I'm not shipping it in the freezing cold up & down the country. Thanks for all your support and will keep updated

GTC · December 2022

thomasross20 said:

--> I have opted for taking it to luthier who will assess and Peach can confirm any contribution. So I keep it local, no shipping it around in the freezing cold, and can get it set up perfectly for me over and above while it's with him.

Sensible - you can at least demonstrate the issue in person and get a first-hand expert opinion rather than dealing with it at arms length. Good luck!

thomasross20 · December 2022

So my 100 mile round trip is complete.
Guitar back with me as he can't work on it until January.
This sort of thing is his bread and butter work. Factory guitars not being perfect etc.
I would now always budget 101-5% cost of guitar for bespoke set-up after buying.
Says is an unbelievably good instrument, especially for the money and compared to bigger well-known brands.

Nut is too high but not warranty issue. I'll get him to lower that and to keep good intonation will put on new saddle Larrivee are delivering (lowering at nut so need higher saddle to keep same string length). I used to like Larrivee's compensated B saddle but if you have to tweak it for intonation it's near impossible as it's so thin. Anyway.

I was right, it needs fretwork, and not just where I thought. But where I noted it was the worst.
So I'm going to get him to do a fret dress, nut lowering and set-up in general.
I mailed Peach to see if they would contribute to the fret issue - I understand there is an "acceptable" amount of buzz but this just clangs which, to me, is a warranty issue. Hopefully they can contribute. And I have asked if it stays within warranty with the repair work (you'd hope so as he is a professional luthier).

So... a few more months until I get the guitar I wanted

Mellish · December 2022

@thomasross20 ; I'd recommend the guys who've worked on my guitars since 1980 but you're in Scotland so a courier.

Good luck, though

thomasross20 · December 2022

UPDATE:

Kudos to Peach here. If I ship it to them and there is found to be issue (outside of tolerance), they will run it through there Plek machine for free (usually costs £175). Else they will cover half the cost for luthier to do the fretwork himself and guitar remains within warranty.

While the plek offer is great (truly!) I am not sure about shipping it further, and in these freezing cold temperatures. I've also built a good relationship with the luthier and additional (non-warranty) work was going to be lowering of the nut (which is a bit high for playability) and subsequently putting new saddle from Larrivee in (to maintain intonation). All of this while making sure it's set up for gauge 11 strings. I could get all that done separately after Peach plek it as is unrelated but I'm veering toward luthier for the whole shebang.

-> Thoughts?

Mellish · December 2022

That's a very decent Peach response.

You've told me who the luthier is (via PMs). Whichever way you go, I don't see how you can lose. Safety wise, the luthier, cos no courier.

thomasross20 · December 2022

Thanks @Mellish for your support - I will stick to getting it done locally

Mellish · December 2022

You're welcome mate.

bertie · December 2022

@thomasross20 ; here ya go, problem solved

Image: https://www.stewmac.com/globalassets/product-images/m001000/m001100/m001163-the-intonator/5245_1-inuse-1500px.jpg?hash=637948372250000000&width=500&height=500&format=webp&mode=crop&quality=75

https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/tools-by-job/tools-for-measuring/the-intonator/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2022-12-gp&pref_currency=GBP&shipcalc=UK&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm_vXz7D2-wIVFMPVCh2wcQJ9EAQYAyABEgJ-KvD_BwE

thomasross20 · December 2022

Strewth! Haha

thomasross20 · February 2023

So the fret work was completed over a month ago. Perfect.

I also got him to file the nuts slots (is this something one can/should be able to do themselves?) as the nut was too high. Now perfect.

I got him to put a new saddle in, slightly higher. He left it slightly high as is easier to bring down than start on a new one if it's been taken too low. I reverted to the old lower saddle but it caused buzz with 11s on. So I put 12s on. These drive the top more so yuo hear a more powerful sound, but I was not connecting with the sound like I do on my OM02.

--> So I decided to sand the new saddle down myself. Took a few iterations but I think it's good now.

Still wasn't getting that magical Larrivee sound which I'm used to. Switched back to 11s... bingo!
I just don't get on with 12s. For some reason, 11s actually SOUND better, to my ears. And play easier.

This whole experience has taught me that you do have to be prepared to "set up" an acoustic guitar as you cannot rely on a guitar in a shop being perfectly set up. And this is a lot more pernickety and difficult than setting up an electric, especially if intonation is the issue. I am now confident enough to do saddle adjustments and strongly believe players should do it themselves as there is a lot of to and for until you get to the correct level for you. As noted, I've never filed nut slots but would love to be able to have that under my belt, too.

Mellish · February 2023

@thomasross20 ; No, I would not recommend you have a go at the nut slots.
If you want to be able to set up your gutars, then you'll obviously need to tackle it at some point.

I'd suggest something dirt cheap from a s/h shop. Practice on that and *then* work on your better guitars.

ICBM · February 2023

Mellish said:

@thomasross20 ; No, I would not recommend you have a go at the nut slots.
If you want to be able to set up your gutars, then you'll obviously need to tackle it at some point.

I'd suggest something dirt cheap from a s/h shop. Practice on that and *then* work on your better guitars.

This. It’s a good excuse to buy a cheap guitar too

- something very different from your main ones will still be perfectly valid to learn nut work on.

My recommendation would be something like the Vintage V300M - it’s a mahogany-top parlour, is excellent in its own right and definitely suits 11s.

I agree that lighter strings often sound better too, contrary to popular wisdom - especially on smaller and lighter-braced guitars.

thomasross20 · February 2023

Thanks, guys - I might leave off nut filing for now....!! It's a very fine balance for me trying to get an acoustic set-up - as low as possible without buzzing, basically.

@ICBM I'm glad you said that re lower gauge strings sounding better (pending some factors like bracing). As I thought some folk might have thought I was nuts.... but for certain, 12s sounded big but did not have the magical sparkle I associate with Larrivee. 11s completely solved this - it feels better to play and actually SOUNDS better.

thomasross20 · February 2023

Check this video out. The heavier the string gauge goes, the worse it sounds to me. So I use custom lights (11s) but the extra lights (10s) sounds even better. I think they'd be a bit too flappy, though

thomasross20 · February 2023

bertie · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Check this video out. The heavier the string gauge goes, the worse it sounds to me. So I use custom lights (11s) but the extra lights (10s) sounds even better. I think they'd be a bit too flappy, though

you need help, now.

ToneControl · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Thanks, guys - I might leave off nut filing for now....!! It's a very fine balance for me trying to get an acoustic set-up - as low as possible without buzzing, basically.

@ICBM I'm glad you said that re lower gauge strings sounding better (pending some factors like bracing). As I thought some folk might have thought I was nuts.... but for certain, 12s sounded big but did not have the magical sparkle I associate with Larrivee. 11s completely solved this - it feels better to play and actually SOUNDS better.

I've recently learned how to file my nuts ;-)

ToneControl · February 2023

I have a nice blueridge tenor guitar
with the original strings it sounded shrill and unpleasant
with slacker strings it sounds lovely

thomasross20 · February 2023

Haha did you not practice on a dummy nut?

So I'm not going crazy. 11s it is for me... easier to play plus sounds better.

ToneControl · February 2023

thomasross20 said:

Haha did you not practice on a dummy nut?
So I'm not going crazy. 11s it is for me... easier to play plus sounds better.

I set up some PRS SEs and some cheap and not so cheap Harley bentons

I use 11s too

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Intonation issue / NGD

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