Intonation issue / NGD

Mellish · November 2022

Have a good look at the G&B as they come over the nut from the tuners. Are they leaving the nut early or do they stay in contact right to the front?

brucegill · November 2022

So have you sent it back?

have you tried acoustics with a split saddle (not sure if your Avalon has one or not). That often helps.

But if something ships with 12-13s I can we’ll see it needing some adjustments for 11s.

To be honest, no guitars intonate properly all the way down the fret board - it’s just not possible. Compensated nuts can help.

I sympathise as I know I’ve had one or two over the years that I just can’t deal with. And once you’ve heard it, you can’t un-hear it.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Nut and saddle fine, it's getting shipped back Monday. Yes can't unhear it. Maybe I was lucky with my OM-02 as that's near perfect when switching between gauges. Shouldn't need to do this on a new guitar imo (so have to pay extra for tech to alter intonation on top of guitar cost - that sucks).

Split saddle easier to adjust as compensated ones have only a thin section for the B. In fact this makes it very difficult to get correct intonation if it's out on the B. Luthier said he could make a custom saddle but that all feels a bit much. So it's a real lottery imo. Few cents off really sucks. I'll never find out if it's fine with gauge 12 as can't be bothered and it's not a gauge I use, but I feel few cents out being audibly jarring is no good for a £kkk instrument.

Acoustics are difficult.

https://www.guitaranswerguy.com/guitar-string-wont-intonate/

thomasross20 · November 2022

Well... second time lucky, I've opted for an OM40 (sitka/mahogany - same as my OM02 but with the new bracing for deeper bass... I hope!). Should be with me within a few days. Fingers crossed...

I am sort of GASsing for a parlour and I've not even got the OM40 yet...!!

Must admit I am a total Larrivee fanboy

GTC · November 2022

thomasross20 said:
I am sort of GASsing for a parlour and I've not even got the OM40 yet...!!

I saw yesterday that Rich Tone had a second-hand Terry Pack parlour for sale (£699 - about half the new price). These guitars are fantastic - I had the left-handed version. IMO they outperform Wee Lowdens and the old signature RAG Yairis https://richtonemusic.co.uk/terry-pack-plrs-parlour-guitar-natural-hard-case-2nd-hand/

thomasross20 · November 2022

GTC said:

thomasross20 said:
I am sort of GASsing for a parlour and I've not even got the OM40 yet...!!

I saw yesterday that Rich Tone had a second-hand Terry Pack parlour for sale (£699 - about half the new price). These guitars are fantastic - I had the left-handed version. IMO they outperform Wee Lowdens and the old signature RAG Yairis https://richtonemusic.co.uk/terry-pack-plrs-parlour-guitar-natural-hard-case-2nd-hand/

Sweet Lord that looks good. There are a few I've my eye on.
The Larrivee ones now going for £1500++ !!
Some used ones not coming with cases which puts me off - the whole point would be to lug it into a small easy to carry case and take it to my partner's place to play. 14th fret accessibility is a must so 12-fret cutaway or 14-fret is essential. Will check that out.. However I think I need to behave myself and not buy anything that I haven't actually played in person.

thomasross20 · November 2022

GTC said:

thomasross20 said:
I am sort of GASsing for a parlour and I've not even got the OM40 yet...!!

I saw yesterday that Rich Tone had a second-hand Terry Pack parlour for sale (£699 - about half the new price). These guitars are fantastic - I had the left-handed version. IMO they outperform Wee Lowdens and the old signature RAG Yairis https://richtonemusic.co.uk/terry-pack-plrs-parlour-guitar-natural-hard-case-2nd-hand/

OK so I am not a good boy. I pulled the trigger on it after a call to Rich Tone... better be good lol.
The guy tried that plus another I was looking at side by side. Other one was meatier but bigger.

The hardware on that looks great TBH, all wood, Gotoh machine heads, maple binding, bone nut & saddle... made in Vietnam iirc and set up in UK. Smaller, different wood to the mahoganies I've got (rosewood), florentine for upper fret access - apparently low action (good...!) and comes with a nice hard case, too. Looking forward to it.

Two guitars in two days wtf lol...

Shadow · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

GTC said:

thomasross20 said:
I am sort of GASsing for a parlour and I've not even got the OM40 yet...!!

I saw yesterday that Rich Tone had a second-hand Terry Pack parlour for sale (£699 - about half the new price). These guitars are fantastic - I had the left-handed version. IMO they outperform Wee Lowdens and the old signature RAG Yairis https://richtonemusic.co.uk/terry-pack-plrs-parlour-guitar-natural-hard-case-2nd-hand/

OK so I am not a good boy. I pulled the trigger on it after a call to Rich Tone... better be good lol.

I've been on the lookout for a Terry Pack for a while after reading a lot of good things about them. I haven't had the chance to try one so I'd be very interested to know what you think of it.

thomasross20 · November 2022

I will let you know for sure - there's a 14 day return period so if not my thing, can send back.
But I checked the specs and I'm thinking damn... this is some serious hardware for the money.
It's an unknown name to me and I generally go for American made so will see what it's like. Fingers crossed!
Apparently this one is about 10 years old but in near pristine condition.

Shadow · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

I will let you know for sure - there's a 14 day return period so if not my thing, can send back.
But I checked the specs and I'm thinking damn... this is some serious hardware for the money.
It's an unknown name to me and I generally go for American made so will see what it's like. Fingers crossed!
Apparently this one is about 10 years old but in near pristine condition.

They do seem incredible value secondhand. As they're such a little-known brand the resale prices are very low. If you do send it back I might make a trip to Sheffield, not too far from me.

thomasross20 · November 2022

There aren't many clips of these guitars online (and all seems to have gone a bit quiet around them) but the ones I do find sound great:

Been reading up some more. Vietnamese guitar building can be hit and miss and their natural humidity is crazy over there, with most wood being air and not kiln dried.. so I'm either going to get a dud or a great guitar here lol...

thomasross20 · November 2022

So I just got it. It's loud, unique. Very cool.

I think I can hear something rattling inside. Not sure what. Also the bass E string slightly less strong than others so checked the bridge. No slots for the strings, straight into the pegs but the E bass has a lowish break angle.

Also, the pegs are one up, one down. Thoughts?

I like it. A new GS Mini costs the same or less. Undecided.

https://i.imgur.com/HducKfe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qNcejQu.jpg

thomasross20 · November 2022

Undecided re the parlour, will see. Parlours aren't actually that much smaller than OMs tbh

I have actually discovered that a 12 fret with cutaway is pretty cool. Future GAS.

Oh, the Larrivee OM40 arrived.
Intonation near perfect... G is almost 1 cent flat but near indistinguishable. This is a completely different guitar to the OM02.. Bass growls more, sound shifts ever so slightly away from Larrivee and toward Martin. It's bright but with time that will get tamed. Lovely tuners and feels solid. Satin feel is lovely. Saying that, I do tend to sway the guitar a bit for natural reverb so a finish makes less noise. So in future... Lacquered 12 fret with Venetian cutaway lol ..

But yeah, different beast and I'm glad for it

bertie · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

Also, the pegs are one up, one down. Thoughts?

ball-ends stuck under the pin

slots in the pin not big enough (ie a restring and pegs not put back in the same place, doesnt always matter but sometimes the slots can be string specific)

if it continues to be an issue, you might need a small slot in the bridge to get that break angle - is the bottom E easy to move over the saddle ?

ICBM · November 2022

Try swapping those two pins and see if the high/low follows the pins or stays with the same holes. Sometimes both can vary a bit depending on how they're drilled/turned - plastic pins almost never vary so a difference like that will be down to the holes, but with wooden pins it could be either - or both! With wood or bone pins I spend a bit of time to find the best 'pattern', then keep them in those positions when changing strings.

thomasross20 · November 2022

You are not going to believe it. I took my heavy Canon camera out to take a pic of the new Larrivee, my hand slipped and it dented the the soundboard FFS !! That's it christened, then... fastest christening ever. Good news is, it will be a keeper like my other one. But I am proper gutted about that.

I think a slot in the bridge is bets bet TBH as that would also give it a larger break angle.
That's a good point about keeping the pins in the same pattern - maybe even number them.
--> I am 50:50 on whether to keep or return as the two Larrivees are a handful and the parlour, while lovely, is not THAT much smaller than the OM body shape.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Decided I will return the Terry Pack - was on a bit of a whim and shop said would be ok to do so if I covered the postage.

Well here are pics of my OM-02 and pre-dented OM-40 (still feel sick about that!)

Mellish · November 2022

The high pins - try in other pin holes as lads have suggested.

If still sitting high, try wrapping the shafts in sandpaper and turning to reduce dia up near the skirt. Recheck after a few turns. You're after the pins sitting with the skirt resting on the bridge when the fit is snug.

idiotwindow · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

Has anybody ever checked intonation when moving from 13s down to 11s, say? I wonder how much of an effect it has.

I have 11-47 strings (Martin Silk & Phosphor) on my D-28. That guitar originally came with 13s but I didn't have a problem moving down the gauges in the 4 years I've had the guitar. Intonation is good (though in truth I probably wouldn't notice a few cents here and there at the twelfth fret).

Winny_Pooh · November 2022

idiotwindow said:

thomasross20 said:

Has anybody ever checked intonation when moving from 13s down to 11s, say? I wonder how much of an effect it has.

I have 11-47 strings (Martin Silk & Phosphor) on my D-28. That guitar originally came with 13s but I didn't have a problem moving down the gauges in the 4 years I've had the guitar. Intonation is good (though in truth I probably wouldn't notice a few cents here and there at the twelfth fret).

Higher tension will belly the top a bit more and pull the saddle a teeny bit nearer the nut. It varies alot from guitar to guitar which is why I have a custom cut saddle on all my acoustics

thomasross20 · December 2022

Is it true you can wet a bit of the guitar top and apply heat via soldering iron over a cloth in order to bring out dents....? Anybody tried this? @ICBM maybe? @FelineGuitars ?

bertie · December 2022

thomasross20 said:

Is it true you can wet a bit of the guitar top and apply heat via soldering iron over a cloth in order to bring out dents....? Anybody tried this? @ICBM maybe? @FelineGuitars ?

I believe it only works on bare / wax / oiled finishes, - but get that confirmed

Soupman · December 2022

@thomasross20 there is a Stewmac video on YouTube by Dan Erlewine doing exactly this.
I tried myself on a cedar top, it seemed to work. However I'm not sure if it works if the lacquer is broken.

thomasross20 · December 2022

I'll need to see what finish is on the OM40..

ICBM · December 2022

Soupman said:

@thomasross20 there is a Stewmac video on YouTube by Dan Erlewine doing exactly this.
I tried myself on a cedar top, it seemed to work. However I'm not sure if it works if the lacquer is broken.

It doesn't work if the lacquer is *not* broken - there has to be a way in for the steam. It's very rare for the not to be a small crack though, the lacquer would need to stretch perfectly all around the dent.

BillDL · December 2022

If you burn a hole through the soundboard with a soldering iron you can always make it a "feature" by burning some more holes in a nice pattern and tell folk it's kind of like the tweeter in a speaker enclosure.

Soupman · December 2022

@BillDL is that what Willie Nelson was trying to do with 'trigger'?

BillDL · December 2022

No, he used a clothes iron.

thomasross20 · December 2022

This is the satin finish Larrivee use:

Satin: Pure Acrylic Urethane 10% Sheen Satin Finish (Catalyzed), Over top of a Catalyzed Urethane base coat
WE USE NO POLYESTER ON ANY ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENTS

OK so the lacquer needs to be broken, that makes sense. It does look like it's chipped a bit. Maybe steam can enter there and it'll come up nicely. Hmmmmmm..... Has anybody actually tried this to good or bad effect?

BillDL · December 2022

I have done this around 10 times successfully on polyurethane, polyester, and the thinner urethane and nitro finishes. One of the times the dent was a bit too deep and it didn't work, and one other time (2nd or 3rd time I tried it) I let the rag get too dry and darkened the wood from the direct heat. It needs to be steamed.

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Intonation issue / NGD

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