Intonation issue / NGD

thomasross20 · November 2022

Just got a new Larrivee ordered, delivered today and the G & B strings are both flat by 2-3 cents which is clearly audible. Very annoying. I am thinking of just returning.

Grrrr.

Danny1969 · November 2022

The intonation is rarely spot on with acoustics, personally I tune my B string slightly flat anyway and my G a tiny bit flat as I find that sweetens most chord shapes I play.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Is that true? My OM-02 is perfect and Avalon also perfect intonation.
I'm talking 2-3 cents out so when I play a D shape up past 12th fret, with some open notes thrown in, it really jars.
I am really gutted TBH as this guitar is otherwise amazing...

Stuckfast · November 2022

Have you tried new strings? I bought my Larrivee second-hand, took it home and the intonation was all over the place. Strings looked new but evidently they weren't, because it was fine after I changed them.

Honestly, though, I'd be amazed if an intonation error of 2 or 3 cents was audible. How hard you fret the string makes more difference than that, surely?

thomasross20 · November 2022

Coda music put a new set of 11s on.
11s are fine on my other Larrivee.

I might try a new set. Unsure... I don't think it's the strings.

I'm not fretting too hard and it's very noticeable. I recorded it for coda to hear (they seem good to deal with).

BillDL · November 2022

Does the guitar have a straight saddle without any shaping to help intonation, or is the saddle already shaped to mitigate intonation issues?

Assuming it has a drop-in saddle and not a fancy one with the saddle incorporated into some kind of "channel", IF it is uncompensated I would probably be inclined to buy a compensate bone or Tusq saddle to try it with before returning it. You can get saddles with very squared off compensation sections for quite radical compensation or ones that have more of a rounded flow where the "spine" flows in a curve for less radical intonation, and you shouldn't have to pay more than about £12. If you have enough winds on the tuner posts you can usually capo the neck tightly around the 3rd fret and loosen the strings while pulling them through so you have slack on the body side but still enough tension on the eadstock end to stop the strings unravelling completely. You would usually gain enough slack to lift the saddle at one end and slide it gently out of the slot. Getting the right width, thickness and height would of course depend on the dimensions of the saddle in the guitar, although sanding some off the base is easily done if a new saddle is too high.

You wouldn't have to let on to Coda unless you really wanted to play it honest and seek their approval on the basis that you could still return it if a compensated saddle didn't help.

Mellish · November 2022

Apart from the G&B issue, would you say you like this guitar?

If so, keep it and let a good tech sort the intonation.

The intonation on my Dove (non-compensated saddle) is very good and should be - and CAN be - on your Larrivee.

Danny1969 · November 2022

I would certainly try new strings first. Sometimes a small dent in a string will prevent it intonating correctly.
Also try pressing the string down firmly where it leaves the saddle.

ICBM · November 2022

Is the intonation out up the whole length of the strings, or right at the first few frets and progressively worse as you go towards the bridge?

thomasross20 · November 2022

Hi guys - many comments (thanks

)

I honestly never paid intonation so much notice before but I play a particular song and noticed it sounded "out" up in the higher register so I specifically checked. I also just checked my OM-02 and the intonation is slightly better, but it's not perfect like I thought it was. Dear God, acoustics are another level, aren't they!!

So I re-strung the G & B strings and it seems a bit better. Still maybe 1 cent flat but I think that's not bad.

I consulted my luthier (David Anthony Reid up in Perth who I is really good) so he's been in the loop, Coda will ring me tomorrow (they seem ok with return within 14 days) and I also e-mailed Larrivee and I think Jean Larrivee's son was the one who responded (wow!). He asked for the serial number and said the guitar will have shipped with 12s or 13s so 11s are a bit light and higher gauge would help a touch. He also gave me a link to 75% off a new bone nut & saddle plus free set of XT strings and an offer to go through some of their B-stock (looking forward to seeing what he comes back with there [edit - he got back but since I'm overseas, which he didn't realise, it means the bargain is less so I said to not bother]). So... very helpful! I'm wondering if I should order those even if I'm not going to need them immediately as that's a decent discount!

Going over it with the luthier, the B string compensation there's not much can do as it goes over such a thin section of bone saddle (and then it affects string height and break angle, potentially). Bad fretwork can cause similar issue and covered a whole bunch of other stuff. But I don't think will need any of that as hopefully the string change has done the job and I can try 12s.

The guitar is good (it's an OM05). Sounds similar to OM-02 but feels more resonant. I thought I'd hate the lacquer but damn, it feels great. It's a great guitar and it feels like if anything, it's serviceable parts that only ever need tweaked for this sort of thing. So to return such a vibrant guitar feels a complete waste. I would not keep it if it were some unsolvable issue, so fingers crossed.

@ICBM you make a great point. When I play the G string open, it's a G. But the 1st few frets appear slightly sharp. Same on my other Larrivee. Isn't that odd lol. But mainly it's just higher up from what I can tell.

I'm fatigued from this now but I'll tell you, I'm learning a lot. And after 20+ years of playing!!

BillDL · November 2022

If the string slots on the nut aren't cut as deep on that guitar when compared with your other acoustics you are more likely to hear slight out of tuneness in some of the fretted notes of open chords on the first 3 or so frets. That's fairly normal and I find that I have to adjust the pressure of individual fingers for D and A chords and tune the B and G strings a tiny bit flat when switching guitars. Similarly, if the overall action is a bit higher on that guitar than on your others, or if there's a bit more neck relief, you are more likely to hear slight intonation discrepancies further up the neck. The string gauge and type can have a noticeable impact on intonation.

thomasross20 · November 2022

I restrung with 11s again and same thing. Apparently higher gauge might help but I don't play higher gauge and my OM02 is that bit better re intonation. Coda say a return is fine (still undecided) - their tech checked at least one Collings this morning (maybe those are golden standard) and said even those were a few cents out once up to 15th fret area.

Mellish · November 2022

@thomasross20 ; would you keep it if it intonation was good? If yes, keep it and let a decent tech *make* it good.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Yes and no - it's soooo resonant, it feels like it's alive, the lacquer feels great and it's so easy to play. But it's pretty much just souped up version of my OM-02. Although I can tune it slightly sharp on treble strings, it's put a dampener on it and I don't want to spend money for a tech to put a new "intonation-correct" saddle (which he would do). Also while the resonance is heavenly, I find that it hurts my ears a tad - I recently bought and sold a silver oak for exactly the same reason (but that had even more resonance due to the silver oak wood used). Can it be that satin models somehow have an element of resonance reduction as I can hear hints of it in my satin OM02 but it's amplified on the lacquered Larrivee's. I will give it some days then decide. I could just keep playing the OM-02 and buy a little parlour.

All the above might see inconsequential or silly or "cork sniffing" or whatever, but after 20 years of playing, you do find what you like and don't like

I was going to string it with 12s but actually... I don't want to. I don't play with 12s, never have and never will.
It may have been shipped with 12s and the intonation may have been just right with those but its 11s all the way for me.

Mellish · November 2022

If there's things about it that you don't like, then I'd say return it within the 14 days.

I've tried making myself like guitars I knew I didn't. Never once did it work.

thomasross20 · November 2022

I think that's very wise.
Wanting it to work never really works out. A shame but I have my OM-02.
I'm amazed Coda were saying the Collings intonation was slightly out.
Clearly it pays to try the instrument in person... my OM-02 is near spot-on perfect. The B string is almost a cent flat at 15th fret and I can almost hear that but you're talking about a lower-spec model I got 20 years ago now... clearly every acoustic it's its own beast, even amongst the same manufacturer (as my luthier is keen on saying!). Acoustics really are another level when trying to find what suits you.

Everybody will be checking their intonation now lol... The one that got me is playing 5ths.
0 on G string then 3rd fret/15th fret... does it sound like "hi - hooooo" from Snow White & Seven Dwarfs? Lol

bertie · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

I'm talking 2-3 cents out so when I play a D shape up past 12th fret,

and therin lies the problem, stop showing off and dont play past the 12th

thomasross20 · November 2022

Hahaha I tell you this is no issue for those folk that play 12-fretters.
In fact maybe there's something to that. I need to stop being a dick and stay low. Lol......

digitalkettle · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

I restrung with 11s again and same thing. Apparently higher gauge might help but I don't play higher gauge and my OM02 is that bit better re intonation. Coda say a return is fine (still undecided) - their tech checked at least one Collings this morning (maybe those are golden standard) and said even those were a few cents out once up to 15th fret area.

I know first-hand that Collings ship with a slightly flat intonation which is designed to 'come in' as the guitar's top bellies slightly in its first few months or so. Didn't quite come in enough for me so I've just recently got around to having a new saddle made.

With a Lowden, I was expected to take it back to the shop (Sheeran's...RIP) for a check-up and adjustment after six months.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Hmm that's very interesting, so it's "designed -in?"

And was it noticeable and also only on certain strings or all?

digitalkettle · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

Hmm that's very interesting, so it's "designed -in?"

And was it noticeable and also only on certain strings or all?

Designed-in...yep...educated guessery.

Mostly noticeable on the B and E strings as that's where some of your higher chord voicings top out.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Hmmm it's definitely G, B & E (mainly B & E) on the Larrivee. I wonder if that also changes with time. If so then it's something that customers should be told but I'm not risking it. I'm returning it to coda - they have been good to deal with. Was tempted to get same guitar elsewhere incase is a dud but I'm exhausted now

bertie · November 2022

if you changed gauge on an electric, you'd not be unsurprised if you had to adjust the bridge saddles ?

ergo

digitalkettle · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

Hmmm it's definitely G, B & E (mainly B & E) on the Larrivee. I wonder if that also changes with time. If so then it's something that customers should be told but I'm not risking it. I'm returning it to coda - they have been good to deal with. Was tempted to get same guitar elsewhere incase is a dud but I'm exhausted now

If it's a brand new acoustic, it's going to settle in over time. All guitars require some adjustment from time to time (if you notice stuff like that...and it sounds like you do). It's just part and parcel of owning a nice acoustic.

thomasross20 · November 2022

True re different gauge strings and effect on intonation. I'm an awkward bugger using 11s.

Has anybody ever checked intonation when moving from 13s down to 11s, say? I wonder how much of an effect it has. Obviously easy to sort on an electric but a real bugger for an acoustic.

Can't say this was ever an issue on my OM-02 going back 20 years and also switching between 12s and 11s.

Must say this was disappointing.

bertie · November 2022

thomasross20 said:

Has anybody ever checked intonation when moving from 13s down to 11s, say? I wonder how much of an effect it has. Obviously easy to sort on an electric but a real bugger for an acoustic.

this can be a rabbit warren that can lead to insanity - trust your ears forget measuring tools

thomasross20 · November 2022

Yep. My ears don't lie... It would have annoyed me endlessly.

GuitarAndy2 · November 2022

Acoustic intonation is a rabbit warren and a half, particularly if you're used to the extensive adjust-ability of most modern electrics. Have you considered using compensated tuning with a sweetened temperament like in the Buzz Feiten system or with the Earvana nuts? Temperament is taken into consideration far more with piano and the like. There's an interesting book on it's history & usage by Stuart Isacoff simply titled Temperament.

thomasross20 · November 2022

Defo a rabbit hole.

Now wondering whether to order similar guitar from other store "in hope" or just leave it for a while. Hell, the OM05 is almost same as OM02 but did sound sweeter. Maybe better getting different kind of guitar

Soupman · November 2022

@thomasross20 a set of Newtone Heritage 12s could be worth a try. They're 12 gauge but low tension, so feel like 11s.
Sounds as though you've decided to return it, so good luck whatever you finally decide upon.

thomasross20 · November 2022

That's a good shout, never tried those before!

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Intonation issue / NGD

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