Complaints about Live Sound

maltingsaudio · November 2022

https://twitter.com/boden_jon/status/1591961865995030528

From the guys at Bellowhead, well worth a read

shufflebeat · November 2022

Totally reasonable - but in my limited experience those most keen to express an opinion on the topic are least likely to be persuaded by anything as unconvincing as the laws of physics.

At times when I've been in that position I (try to) ask them exactly what they thought the problem was, thank them for taking the time and promise to learn from the experience. Sometimes I don't manage that.

I have also been at gigs where the s/e is not dealing with an issue I know I could and I really don't want to be ^that^ guy.

That's a tough one.

Rowby1 · November 2022

Interesting, I know two people who have seen Bellowhead in recent years who both came away saying it was too loud and just a wall of noise.

Good to know that wasn’t a mistake but an artistic choice.

26.2 · November 2022

‘I don’t want this to come across as a whinge’

Not sure what else to call it - perhaps a passive aggressive stream of self-justification?

‘…please know it will of necessity have zero impact….’

ugh.

sev112 · November 2022

Well, what should a band / promoter want from a paid audience, if not feedback. 2 particular gigs this year I’ve been to where you couldn’t hear the lead guitarist. One was a festival where for some reason (presumably set efficiency) the lead guitarist for 4 bands was on stage left - Couldn’t hear any of them from just off centre right, and no better when I went front and back left.

I don’t say anything because (a) who /how/when do you do so, (b) I anticipate I’d get told to F off by the hard working sound engineer and possibly quite rightly as otherwise everyone would be moaning at them all night; what I’d hate as a paying punter is the band telling me to stop telling them because they don’t care!

On both those gigs I was asked later by 2 of the bands whether I enjoyed, and I said I couldn’t hear either of their lead guitarists. And they both said “why didn’t you tell anyone?” To which I replied “who/ how and why would they listen to a punter in the audience”, they both said “yeah I guess so” . Would it put me off going to either the band or venue again, you bet it would.

EricTheWeary · November 2022

I thought Bellowhead had stopped, apparently not.

When you go back to your local venue time and again and sometimes it sounds shit and sometimes it doesn't then that's not just the room. Although when I went to see Deep Purple the other week we were behind the mixing desk. The chap next to me said he always booked tickets in that section as it was the only place the sound was decent. And it was, so anyone going to the Utilita Arena that's a handy hint.

DefaultM · November 2022

There's a pub I play thats a rectangle with a small corridor doorway cut in to it. We set up on one side of the corridor wall and there's seats in front. People will stand on the other side of the corridor wall to watch sport on TV. They can't see us at all and they're also stood behind the PA speakers.
Between sets they come through and start telling us the sound is terrible and what we need to do to sort it. You're basically stood in another room!

english_bob · November 2022

EricTheWeary said:

I thought Bellowhead had stopped, apparently not.

They had. They stopped in 2016, then started again in 2020.

stickyfiddle · November 2022

I'm 100% onboard with his "vibe over absolute perfection" concept. But I've seen some big bands with utterly shocking sound in the same venues where others make it work incredibly well and at very similar volumes.

I know it's not what this guy is saying, but we played last night (see other thread - I'm still on a high) and the venue was acoustically atrocious - roughly 1200 capacity bar, wide and tall with the PA speakers pointing too much at the back wall and not enough at the people below so everything bounces around the room. But the main reason for sound issues was a soundman who was out of his depth with both working the excellent digital desk as well as the mixing itself.

So as much as this guy wants to defend his sound man I think a little bit of "can we do better?" is always healthy in any situation where it's clear things aren't perfect

p90fool · November 2022

People come up to us all the time with suggestions on how the sound could be improved, and I have this dream one day that one of those people will actually be sober.

Nerine · November 2022

I cannot stand it when people tell me they can’t hear the vocals. (I can always hear them just fine).

I hate listening to vocals that are too loud. Makes the band sound small in comparison.

slacker · November 2022

I saw Danny Thompson play with Gomez at the Brixton academy. I assume he's a great player because all I heard was wub wub wub. Live sound is a lottery, band, sound engineer, room, some or all can be useless.

Sometimes people make honest mistakes. A friend was assisting sound and asked me how it sounded. No bass I said. The sound engineer heard and screamed at me the fader was up. Afterwards my friend admitted looking at the board and seeing the pfl button activated.

shufflebeat · November 2022

To be fair, the PFL being activated wouldn't affect the FOH sound, a lack of bass sound does suggest a problem somewhere, though, faders notwithstanding.

mike257 · November 2022

slacker said:

Sometimes people make honest mistakes. A friend was assisting sound and asked me how it sounded. No bass I said. The sound engineer heard and screamed at me the fader was up. Afterwards my friend admitted looking at the board and seeing the pfl button activated.

There's a multitude of reasons why a particular channel might not be audible in the PA, but the PFL button being on isn't one of them. It makes no difference to whether or not the channel is active, it just solos it in to the engineers headphones/cue wedge.

DuploLicks · November 2022

mike257 said:
There's a multitude of reasons why a particular channel might not be audible in the PA

One of them might be some irritating punter unplugged one of the subs… ahem. I know better now. I was young. I’d had a few…

Roland · November 2022

… or the man who unplugged the PA so he could play the one armed bandit.

EricTheWeary · November 2022

...we had someone unplug our PA to charge their phone up whilst we were playing. Although some say it was an improvement.

RocknRollDave · November 2022

The sound engineer can only deal with what the band are putting out.
You can't polish a....you know what.

I think us guitarists, in particular, need to be honest and admit that sometimes the mushy, overly distorted mess coming out of our amps was always going to get lost in the mix, no matter what the sound guy did.

Understanding frequencies and ensuring that your sound sits well - at the same time as cutting through - is a real dark art, and definitely not one I have mastered. I suspect the same is true for many of us.

DuploLicks · November 2022

As mentioned, I’m a reformed character and now do soundesk in my Church. It’s hard work. Timid Timmy will be a mouse until it’s time to perform and he goes crazy (relatively, we’re in Church). The pianist who abhors electric pianos will flip open the lid of the upright for more sound as the drummer’s taking over and then I’ll be advised the piano was a bit loud today.

It’s a happy grumble though. I do enjoy the game of trying to get the sound right

Snags · November 2022

DuploLicks said:

As mentioned, I’m a reformed character and now do soundesk in my Church. It’s hard work. Timid Timmy will be a mouse until it’s time to perform and he goes crazy (relatively, we’re in Church). The pianist who abhors electric pianos will flip open the lid of the upright for more sound as the drummer’s taking over and then I’ll be advised the piano was a bit loud today.

It’s a happy grumble though. I do enjoy the game of trying to get the sound right

I trust everyone turns around and stares at you at the first hint of feedback or howl? And that nobody involved up front has the first clue about mic technique? And there's always the one person who tells you everything is far too loud when you're setting levels in an empty building before there are any bodies in?

It's even worse if you play in the band and someone else does the PA, because once you're identified as someone who can do it and have it sound good, you get everyone coming up to you afterwards saying it was shit that day, despite the fact you were playing, not doing PA, which is doubly dispiriting.

I so, so, so do not miss any of that.

Danny1969 · November 2022

mike257 said:

slacker said:

Sometimes people make honest mistakes. A friend was assisting sound and asked me how it sounded. No bass I said. The sound engineer heard and screamed at me the fader was up. Afterwards my friend admitted looking at the board and seeing the pfl button activated.

There's a multitude of reasons why a particular channel might not be audible in the PA, but the PFL button being on isn't one of them. It makes no difference to whether or not the channel is active, it just solos it in to the engineers headphones/cue wedge.

There's been a couple of times I've been mixing on A&H'a QU Pad ap and without noticing my thumbs hit the little button to the right of the fader which takes the channel out of the L&R main mix ... took me a while to figure that one out.

Another thing is local / digital snake input on the routing page. That's caught me out a few times but at least with that you can see no audios coming in or going out

icu81b4 · November 2022

Venues that were built and designed around the Victorian music hall era can be a nightmare for both the sound engineer and performers.

CaseOfAce · November 2022

Nerine said:

I cannot stand it when people tell me they can’t hear the vocals. (I can always hear them just fine).
I hate listening to vocals that are too loud. Makes the band sound small in comparison.

If you can't hear the vocals, it doesn't matter how outstanding the band is - you're dead in the water.

That's why I don't mind if someone comes up at half time and says "we can't hear the vocals..." cos we can actually do something about it to fix that. I'd rather my guitar was too quiet than the vocals...

Nerine · November 2022

CaseOfAce said:

Nerine said:

I cannot stand it when people tell me they can’t hear the vocals. (I can always hear them just fine).
I hate listening to vocals that are too loud. Makes the band sound small in comparison.

If you can't hear the vocals, it doesn't matter how outstanding the band is - you're dead in the water.

That's why I don't mind if someone comes up at half time and says "we can't hear the vocals..." cos we can actually do something about it to fix that. I'd rather my guitar was too quiet than the vocals...

Nah… I had this in a venue the other night, though. Someone off to the side said they couldn’t hear the vocals. They were level with the PA, about 20ft to the side of it. No one else said the vocals were too quiet.

Same with (on another gig) someone saying there was too much bass. He was stood in some weird alcove corner bit.

Like, of course there’s gonna be heaps of bass there. I pretended to turn it down on the DFA fader. Loads better apparently.. go figure.

I make no apologies when I take no notice of the one person in the audience that has something to say when I’ve checked everything out in the main listening position where the majority of the audience are and it sounds good to me.

And when the vocals are too loud it does make the band sound lacking/small. Same when mixing a record.

I’d rather 90% of the audience get a killer sound and the remaining 10% can move/get involved should they feel inclined enough.

Danny1969 · November 2022

If the sound is important to you then the best thing you can do is give up £20 each and pay someone to mix it for you. These days it's just someone out front with an iPad, it's not like the ballache of running a snake and a desk out front like it used to be.

If you are an AC tribute you can pretty much set your mix and leave it but for most covers bands the vocals and other things will need adjustment from song to song, even with compression on the vocals. You naturally sing louder when you sing higher and quieter on lower registers so just setting the vocals once will rarely produce much of a professional vocal sound. The vocal has to ridden a bit, plus you want to tap tempo the delay one vocal and ride the verb send here and there.

I @Nerine has a point about vocals being too loud ... it does sound amateurish to me ... like karaoke down the pub. You get clarity of vocal by high passing, compression and cutting EQ on other instruments to make room for the vocal. Just turning the vocal up till it's right above the band sounds pretty bad in MHO and doesn't show the vocalist in the best light.

maltingsaudio · November 2022

Danny1969 said:

If the sound is important to you then the best thing you can do is give up £20 each and pay someone to mix it for you. These days it's just someone out front with an iPad, it's not like the ballache of running a snake and a desk out front like it used to be.

If you are an AC tribute you can pretty much set your mix and leave it but for most covers bands the vocals and other things will need adjustment from song to song, even with compression on the vocals. You naturally sing louder when you sing higher and quieter on lower registers so just setting the vocals once will rarely produce much of a professional vocal sound. The vocal has to ridden a bit, plus you want to tap tempo the delay one vocal and ride the verb send here and there.

I @Nerine has a point about vocals being too loud ... it does sound amateurish to me ... like karaoke down the pub. You get clarity of vocal by high passing, compression and cutting EQ on other instruments to make room for the vocal. Just turning the vocal up till it's right above the band sounds pretty bad in MHO and doesn't show the vocalist in the best light.

I agree hire a sound engineer but if you want the subtle effects Danny says in the second paragraph give him a proper desk not an iPad! Trying to tap a delay, subtly add and subtract reverb on the fly whilst balancing a mismatched instrument all at the same time is darn near impossible on an iPad!

My thoughts on the whole debate are audience members come to a show with different expectations, for most they understand live music and accept the limitations of a live performance. Others expect a hifi as per the record experience, which whilst we strive to do the best we can, isn’t really possible at a gig.

live music is about the experience, bit like going to a football match, your team either wins draws or loses on the day and during the match incidents occur and some get sent off. You expect your team to win every time but the opposition gets in the way!

shufflebeat · November 2022

maltingsaudio said:

Danny1969 said:

...£20 each and pay someone to mix it for you. These days it's just someone out front with an iPad, it's not like the ballache of running a snake and a desk out front like it used to be.

I agree hire a sound engineer but if you want the subtle effects Danny says in the second paragraph give him a proper desk not an iPad! Trying to tap a delay, subtly add and subtract reverb on the fly whilst balancing a mismatched instrument all at the same time is darn near impossible on an iPad!

Mixing on an iPad involves a different workflow and better pre-planning and structuring (organising of subgroups, DCAs, etc.) but there's no reason why complex mixing on the fly should be a problem.

There are a few things that are awkward on an iPad but there is much more time and space to address them, having not had to mess about with multicore and outboard in the setting up.

maltingsaudio · November 2022

shufflebeat said:

maltingsaudio said:

Danny1969 said:

...£20 each and pay someone to mix it for you. These days it's just someone out front with an iPad, it's not like the ballache of running a snake and a desk out front like it used to be.

I agree hire a sound engineer but if you want the subtle effects Danny says in the second paragraph give him a proper desk not an iPad! Trying to tap a delay, subtly add and subtract reverb on the fly whilst balancing a mismatched instrument all at the same time is darn near impossible on an iPad!

Mixing on an iPad involves a different workflow and better pre-planning and structuring (organising of subgroups, DCAs, etc.) but there's no reason why complex mixing on the fly should be a problem.

There are a few things that are awkward on an iPad but there is much more time and space to address them, having not had to mess about with multicore and outboard in the setting up.

Let’s agree to disagree on this one, Personally far prefer Knobs and faders, all the outboard you need is on the desk and how difficult is it to run a cat 5 cable to where you want it. I do agree there are events where the iPad is the only option but from my experience I find it so much easier to do a good mix from behind a desk as opposed to a screen. (Nb have avoided the dreaded battery life question)

shufflebeat · November 2022

maltingsaudio said:

(Nb have avoided the dreaded battery life question)

Me too, I charge it before the gig and have a spare on charge and hooked up at all times.

smfacer · November 2022

maltingsaudio said:

https://twitter.com/boden_jon/status/1591961865995030528

From the guys at Bellowhead, well worth a read

Went to see Bellowhead on Saturday night at the Liverpool Philharmonic, and while the sound was incredibly loud, it wasn't to the detriment of any member of the band, the mix was spot on, and it was up there as one of the best live experiences I've attended. one of the few gigs where every single person (of around 1700 people) was dancing/jumping/moving in some way. so I think they're doing something right!

PolarityMan · November 2022

maltingsaudio said:

shufflebeat said:

maltingsaudio said:

Danny1969 said:

...£20 each and pay someone to mix it for you. These days it's just someone out front with an iPad, it's not like the ballache of running a snake and a desk out front like it used to be.

I agree hire a sound engineer but if you want the subtle effects Danny says in the second paragraph give him a proper desk not an iPad! Trying to tap a delay, subtly add and subtract reverb on the fly whilst balancing a mismatched instrument all at the same time is darn near impossible on an iPad!

Mixing on an iPad involves a different workflow and better pre-planning and structuring (organising of subgroups, DCAs, etc.) but there's no reason why complex mixing on the fly should be a problem.

There are a few things that are awkward on an iPad but there is much more time and space to address them, having not had to mess about with multicore and outboard in the setting up.

Let’s agree to disagree on this one, Personally far prefer Knobs and faders, all the outboard you need is on the desk and how difficult is it to run a cat 5 cable to where you want it. I do agree there are events where the iPad is the only option but from my experience I find it so much easier to do a good mix from behind a desk as opposed to a screen. (Nb have avoided the dreaded battery life question)

We dont mix our own FoH but we do run our own IEM mix and I gotta say eq at least on a screen is way easier.

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