12 fret guitars

thomasross20 · August 2023

Thanks for the vids above re 13 frets!

Agree 12 frets are more airy and lovely for fingerstyle, really great sound. I need to try a longer scale 12 fret.. folk say 12 frets play easier but if you play barres higher up you're snookered as no cutaway will help when your hand hits the heel.

I'm getting a custom Halcyon in 2 years (waiting list...) so need to decide whether it'll be 12 or 13....

Cranky · August 2023

I can only think of three common brands where a 12-fret cutaway is a fairly regular production: a Breedlove concertina, some Taylor concert models, and some Larivee parlors (or was it Furch?).

I, too, have been lusting after a 12-fret cutaway for a few months. I’ve nearly bit on a non-cutaway, which is far more common, but I just feel like I’ll want to get up the fretboard too much.

thomasross20 · August 2023

My P-03 is non-cutaway.

The OO is often recommended more due to more bass response.

Be careful as some 12 frets don't move the bridge down. The bridge has to move down for that tone.

Back to my point... No cutaway still is pretty darn good. And even with one, the heel can still get in the way. I'm glad to have one and will get a 12 or 13 fret but my 14s still feel like home.

There are a few Larry Parlours for cheap online right now. Anyway... I don't think you can get something for nothing. My L-05 adds bass to the mix but at the expense of the mids shining through as much as on my OM-05.

In the above, I initially preferred the 12 fret. But listen to it several times through good speakers. The 14 fret has a very appealing bell like ringing quality in the mid-trebles that the 12 fret doesn't have. 12 fret gives more air and more bass but I'm guessing might sound flubbier when strummed. The answer is obviously to get both... And also a 13 fret !

And again.... The OOO 12 fret has bass warmth but the 14 fret at 7:10 sounds better than the 12 fret just seconds before imo. When focusing on the mid-treble and not necessarily the bass.

Kateskogs · August 2023

I have a handmade small body 14 fret guitar, it sounds beautiful. I think it's a matter of what you get used to.

guitarjack66 · August 2023

Th4fonz said:

I’m not into cutaways at all but 12 fretters from my experience all just sound better when comparing to a 14.

Why not just buy a cutaway if you want higher fret access? The difference is that noticeable? And comfortable?

Choivert · August 2023

I've got my first 12 fret acoustic on the way, a Gibson HG-2 which is undergoing surgery. I've played them in stores before and liked them, especially the playing position for the fretting hand being a little less outstretched. I never play past the first fret or use a capo so the disadvantages to me are quite small.

I do wonder though if you do want upper fret access, is a cutaway on an acoustic really that useable or just a bit of a compromise?

thomasross20 · August 2023

Cutaway is only of use IMO for playing treble strings high up.

You will still struggle to play barre chords as your hand jams up against the heel.

I think both have their own strengths - I do love playing my 12 fret parlour and my custom build will likely be a 12 fret TBH.

Tannin · August 2023

As per my NGD thread, I just ordered a 12 1/2 fretter from Brook. That extra half fret, I reckon, should be just enough to make all the difference for upper fret access, and it gives me a full-length scale with the bridge in the middle of the lower bout. In a bit less than a year, I'll be able to say how I like it.

thomasross20 · August 2023

Tannin said:

As per my NGD thread, I just ordered a 12 1/2 fretter from Brook. That extra half fret, I reckon, should be just enough to make all the difference for upper fret access, and it gives me a full-length scale with the bridge in the middle of the lower bout. In a bit less than a year, I'll be able to say how I like it.

A yea's wait? Not too bad tbh... Look forward to this!

Tannin · August 2023

Cheers @thomasross20 A bit less than a year, probably.

I don't play lead lines up at the dusty end (or anywhere else on the neck for that matter), my style could be described as fingerpicking multi-note stuff with lots of bass runs. (Scratch an old bass player.) I seldom use the two plain strings for more than a little counterpoint.

So why would I find a 12-fret guitar restrictive? It's mostly just for a handful of ordinary open chords which I sometimes play shifted up an octave. I don't use them all that much but (for example) a standard E chord shifted up 12 frets and played without a barre just adds a nice bit of variety to many different songs. Not having that option would bug me.

I reckon I can probably get used to nailing that move with a 12 1/2 fret guitar, where on a full 12-fretter I think I might struggle. YMMV.

ToneControl · August 2023

Larrivee SD-60, SD-50 sound amazing. Big 12 fret slope shouldered dreads,
also the baritone version was amazing

thomasross20 · August 2023

@ToneControl I heard that about those guitars.
Body depth 4.875" though, wow.

I have the L-05.
Spec depth is meant to be 4.75" but mine is a rare 4.5" (more akin to their LS-05 model).
This is VERY lucky for me as I can't stand deep bodies - makes it so much harder to pull the guitar close and do barre work.

The L-05 is LUSH. Lovely bass, chimes like a bell! Much better strummer than the OM-05.

Saying that, the OM-05 sound, because there is less bass in it, sounds better from a mids point of view.
Also easier to play owing to the 4.25" body depth.
One step-daughter says the OM-05 is better sounding then my OM-02...

HOWEVER!! And @earwighoney knows all about this...
I have come to the conclusion that I LOVE sapele as a back and sides wood.
For me, it is the ultimate tonewood.

I have come to this conclusion after a lot of research (forums [luthiers, other instrument forums], wood database etc) and purchase of guitars.

Sapele has an extended frequency range over mahogany (which I THOUGHT was my fave).
The trebles sparkle.
There is no hump or dip in the mids - the frequency range is flat which makes it nice for all styles.
It has some of the hog mid-range grunt/syrupy tone (but not completely, alas - it's only pitfall).
It has more harmonic content than 'hog (as noted by at least one luthier I've been speaking to).
I'm not big on too much bass or piercing trebles and it doesn't have these qualities.
Quilted sapele looks fantastic.

I think back to all the guitars that I like -
- GS Mini Sapele is the version I prefer
- Shawn Mendes Martin I tried in GG turns out was sapele back & sides
- My original OM-02 which is probably still my fave guitar (also partly because of it's lighter build than present Larrivees)

The only guitar that stacked up to my OM-02 was a Martin sinker with adi top.
Perhaps the adi top gave that guitar an extended range over the usual sitka/hog Martins.

So I've been buying all these guitars when in fact I could have just stuck with my one and favourite OM-02.......!!
I kept hearing how Larrivee does mahogany so well, and it does! But I just keep coming back to sapele.
It's a shame it's not more widely used - mainly by Taylor, Martin all-sapele-bodies, Eastman and boutique builders.
There's a Santa Cruz ancient spruce and sapele on YouTube which sounds bloody fantastic.

Why do I mention this...
I am getting my own custom built Halcyon/Tinker (Ed Bond from Larrivee does his own builds now) in 2 years.
And I will likely go for lutz top and either sapele or Honduran (because the Halcyon Honduran on YouTube sounds phenomenal). The decision is a tricky one.

Now I completely forget which factors affect the sound (factors like Janka etc) - do you guys know?
I mention because Khaya, Honduran, Cuban (!) are all fairly similar but I think going from left to right their, the wood gets harder and I think this is why the Cuban is regarded more highly. But then Sapele is similar and even harder so go figure! Larrivee use Khaya.

The fees & shipping will be horrendous from Canada but I want this.

@Tannin ;;;
Your playing sounds interesting!
I hear you re 12 fret restriction.
Cowboy chords are easier but playing higher up the arm budges into your physical body more, and the heel gets in the way.
I must say, though... the sound is lush.
I really wish Larrivee did more OO-03 models as I would love one of those if it was anything like my parlour.
But again... each has its merits. 12 frets sound a bit more pants when strummed compared to 14 frets.

So many considerations!

ToneControl · August 2023

thomasross20 said:

@ToneControl I heard that about those guitars.
Body depth 4.875" though, wow.

I have the L-05.
Spec depth is meant to be 4.75" but mine is a rare 4.5" (more akin to their LS-05 model).
This is VERY lucky for me as I can't stand deep bodies - makes it so much harder to pull the guitar close and do barre work.

Linda Manzer does a wedge design
The Wedge©™ – Manzer Guitars
It makes bigger bodies more comfy

If you are getting a custom build, you could ask about this kind of thing

thomasross20 · August 2023

Oooh that is very smart. Very smart, indeed.
She is a great luthier (no surprise - worked with Jean Larrivee!)

@ToneControl you were a bit hit and miss re Larrivee before - so you liked the SD models... I have to say the L-05 I got also is so so so resonant. Absolutely amazing. Probably the best sounding guitar I've got (remembering the sapele is an OM body vs bigger L body for the L-05)

ToneControl · August 2023

thomasross20 said:

Oooh that is very smart. Very smart, indeed.
She is a great luthier (no surprise - worked with Jean Larrivee!)

@ToneControl you were a bit hit and miss re Larrivee before - so you liked the SD models... I have to say the L-05 I got also is so so so resonant. Absolutely amazing. Probably the best sounding guitar I've got (remembering the sapele is an OM body vs bigger L body for the L-05)

My other Larrivees were fine, as good as Martin, Taylor, Gibson, but not as good as the boutiquey ones
I had an OM50, LV05E, D05, SD60

The SD60 is a "tone cannon". When I called them to discuss the baritone model, the guy who spoke to me had made SD60s, and agreed it was a special one.
The BT60 was also special.

All personal taste anyway, and I'm more a rosewood/cedar guy and there will always be some guitars that sound better than others of the same model. I'd be interested to see if you like other L-05 guitars as much as your one

Tannin · August 2023

We think of Sapele as a poor man's mahogany and lump it in with the various other timbers makers substitute for real mahogany (notably Khaya and Sipo) but on the numbers it's actually quite different. See the table below. (Raw numbers from the Wood Database, all are normalised with respect to Honduran Mahogany.)

Timber         density	hardness MofE	rupture	crush
Honduran 'hog	1.00	1.00	1.00	1.00	1.00
Cuban Mahogany	1.02	1.02	0.93	0.92	0.93
Koa	        1.03	1.29	1.03	1.08	1.05
Sipo	        1.08	1.31	1.16	1.28	1.23
Khaya	        1.08	1.18	1.05	1.13	1.05
Blackwood	1.08	1.29	1.47	1.28	1.15
Common Walnut	1.08	1.35	1.07	1.43	1.08
Sapele  	1.14	1.56	1.05	1.36	1.30
Rock Maple	1.19	1.60	1.25	1.35	1.16
Black Sirus	1.29	1.81	1.17	1.19	1.20
Indian Rosewood	1.41	2.70	1.14	1.42	1.28
Brazillian RW	1.42	3.09	1.38	1.67	1.44

Notice that Sipo and Khaya are both (very roughly) 10% heavier than real mahogany and 20 to 30% harder. Now compare with Sapele - about 15% heavier and almost 60% harder. That is a BIG difference. On the numbers, Sapele has more in common with Rock Maple than it does with mahogany.

(I've also included your favourite Black Sirus @thomasross20, a timber also known as Ceylon Rosewood and .. er ... um ... the other name slips my mind but you love the stuff and you know the one I mean.)

thomasross20 said:

I am getting my own custom built Halcyon/Tinker (Ed Bond from Larrivee does his own builds now) in 2 years.
And I will likely go for lutz top and either sapele or Honduran (because the Halcyon Honduran on YouTube sounds phenomenal). The decision is a tricky one.

Allriiight! Way to go!

thomasross20 · August 2023

@Tannin Brook is also an option in future for British-built.
Really appreciate the table - very interesting that Sapele is closer to maple!
Mahogany definitely is more focused than sapele, definitely.
The thing it has over sapele is a mid-range syrupy texture, a throbbing (oo-er) that is pleasant to the ear.
Sapele has a bit of it, but it's strength is the extended and FLAT range (flat is a benefit imo - I don't like humps or scoops).

Funny how Koa has similar numbers e.g. to Khaya yet sounds so different. A brash treble to Koa, to my ear.

Bhilwara - also quite similar to sapele... it's a rosewood with mids, a really good bass response. Dry, like mahogany with slightly less sustain but I get the bass from the OM Bhilwara that I get from my 'hog L-05.

I am torn to pieces between Honduran vs sapele on the custom.

@ToneControl ;
You know folk say the old Canadian Larrivee were "better" but I'm not sure that's right.
For sure, my OM-02 is lighter built, I can feel it.
But the special (or at least, higher-end models) are still super good.
I think the L-05, because of the bigger chamber, has "more of everything" - very resonant.
But still ultimately focused as mahogany is.

Basically I try to play some Scottish style tunes and the hump in 'hog's mid-range is noticeable when playing that style - it's focused and sounds a bit country-ish. The sapele sounds better for that style - more sparkly highs and it's flat EQ. I really must try maple but I have it in my head that it's quite a piercing treble type tonewood.

The only tonewood that ever gave me actual earache was Larrivee silver oak. Lovely guitar but something about the sound made my ears hurt.

guitarjack66 · August 2023

It has taken me a while to realise how restrictive deep body guitars are to my playing. The longer you play the more you tick off your own personal preferences for body size,body depth,nut width,neck shape,etc,etc and the more of a minefield it becomes. I wondered why my strat was so immediately comfortable and I quickly realise its lack of thickness. I'd advise newcomers to start on a cheaper guitar and find out what their own guitar idiosyncracrasies are before paying out for an acoustic in particular.

jaymenon · August 2023

BTW (shameless plug) I have a 12-fret up for sale here, a rather nice one, but I desperately need to downsize.
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/252017/cort-l500-o-12-fret-om#latest

quite why the flamed maple third piece in the back I have no idea, but it does look very nice - so why is it on the back where no one can see it?

https://i.imgur.com/DmMDClA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EsBwn5e.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/anIJ5VM.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/qeDNhLR.jpeg

Tannin · August 2023

jaymenon said:

quite why the flamed maple third piece in the back I have no idea, but it does look very nice - so why is it on the back where no one can see it?

You must be holding it wrong.

(Er .. you do do the SRV play-holding-it-behind-your-head thing, yes?)

thomasross20 · August 2023

Does a multi-wood back mix properties of the different woods to a noticeable degree?

guitarjack66 · August 2023

jaymenon said:

BTW (shameless plug) I have a 12-fret up for sale here, a rather nice one, but I desperately need to downsize.
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/252017/cort-l500-o-12-fret-om#latest

quite why the flamed maple third piece in the back I have no idea, but it does look very nice - so why is it on the back where no one can see it?

https://i.imgur.com/DmMDClA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EsBwn5e.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/anIJ5VM.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/qeDNhLR.jpeg

Looks very nice. I have a Cort Parlour that needs setting up when I can get it to a tech.

sev112 · August 2023

But but but ... Sapele is ugly ....

Light touch paper

thomasross20 · August 2023

sev112 said:

But but but ... Sapele is ugly ....

Light touch paper

Haha have you seen the quilted stuff? : D

I genuinely think it's the sleeper of the tonewood world : D

earwighoney · August 2023

thomasross20 said:

sev112 said:

But but but ... Sapele is ugly ....

Light touch paper

Haha have you seen the quilted stuff? : D

I genuinely think it's the sleeper of the tonewood world : D

Instagram doesn't work, so here's an eBay link.

Quilted Sapele is beautiful stuff. Expensive too!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275893340802?hash=item403c864a82:g:kmUAAOSwfMRkgjVF

tomjax · August 2023

@thomasross20 I'm surprised you've gone for a Canadian build, when the long standing champion of sapele is almost on your doorstep in the shape of Fylde guitars.

Basher · August 2023

I have a 12-fret Eastman OO-10 in mahogany. (Although I've sometimes thought it might be Sapele, as the stripes look very similar to the back of a Larivee OM03 I once had. Does mahogany ever have these strong, vertical stripes?)

Love the 12-fret feel though and for 95% of what I do it's not been restrictive. Might sell it soon as the project I bought it for never really got going and I'm having to cut down due to storage constraints. Lovely thing though.

Image: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51164542505_76002f9bdd_c.jpg

Image: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51163680983_8879dd1669_c.jpg

thomasross20 · August 2023

@earwighoney niiice!

@tomjax say whaaaaat..... I will have to check this out.

Ok back to 12 frets... Sorry for diversion!

thomasross20 · August 2023

I think the above looks more like mahogany but who knows!

guitarjack66 · August 2023

I had a horrible mahogany cheapo guitar from the Harley Benton range. It was terrible and has made me wary of it now.

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