12 fret guitars

thomasross20 · September 2022

Has this discussion been done to death...?

Haven't actually tried one but listening to online clips, these guitars 9/10 times seem to sound better than 14 fret equivalents. I'm thinking a 12 fret with cutaway might be the ultimate guitar (says he having just bought a new guitar).. I understand the tension is also relaxed, making these easier to play (good for me as have right hand troubles these days).

Thoughts?

Tannin · September 2022

I'm with you on those thoughts @thomasross20. I don't own one and have only played a handful, mostly with less attention that I might have paid. As a rule I dislike cutaways but with a 12-fret one becomes much more useful, arguably necessary.

It makes no difference at to string tension. String tension is determined by scale length. 12-fret guitars have the same scale length as 14-fretters, the builder just puts the bridge in the centre of the lower bout instead of near the soundhole. That in turn shortens the neck, but the scale length remains the same.

(When I say "12-fretters have the same scale length as 14-fretters" that's not quite accurate. Any guitar can have any scale length and there is no law to say that one must build a 12-fretter with a standard 650mm scale. Quite often they are built with a Gibson-style 630mm scale, but then so are 14-fretters.)

A question: how does string tension affect your right hand? Left hand, sure, lower tension is easier to fret. But right hand - I'm always wishing for more string tension for my right hand (so I can bang away in my usual hamfisted style) and less for my left.

drofluf · September 2022

I’m a big fan, hard to describe but the “compactness” makes them more comfortable to play.

The sound is very subjective, and subject to more factors than just where the neck joins the body (which dictates the bridge position) but this article helps explain https://www.tfoa.eu/en/blogs/blog/whats-the-difference-between-a-12-and-14-fret-guit/

TLDR

“As a guitarist you get more bass and a more rounded sound. It can mean you have to sacrifice some directness and attack, but especially in combination with a somewhat smaller body guitars, a unique guitar sound can come from opting for 12 in stead of 14 frets.”

DavidRees · September 2022

I was always curious but as a big bloke parlour sized guitars don't sit well with me and only the high end makers, Collins and the like, seemed to make a 12 fret dread and they were rather out of my price range. whilst the same scale length as standard guitars the 12 fret join brings the root position a bit closer, the arm is less outstretched and noticeable less impact on the shoulder. I always reasoned that the acoustic sound would be glorious with the bridge further back on the table.
anyway I saw this demo by the fabulous Stuart Ryan and I bought one a few months ago - fabulous

..
I pick it up to play at least four - five time a day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py33sUx4lmw

drofluf · September 2022

He also makes it look easy but I've been struggling with that arrangement for a while. Think I'll revisit it.

DavidR · September 2022

Interesting. In 1934 a bloke called Perry Bechtel suggested to Martin that they made a guitar with 14 frets. Perry was a banjo player and, allegedly, wanted more frets to the neck than the standard which was, back then, 12 on an acoustic. The foreman of Martin at the time, one John Deichman thought this would be quite jolly and designed a guitar with the features suggested. This proved quite popular in terms of sales, not only because of the longer scale but also a different tonal quality. Martin called it the Orchestra Model or OM and the rest is history. Also at the time, getting the guitar to compete with other instruments in an orchestra was quite difficult. Bigger guitars, resonators and banjos were all solution to this, but some people think, and for some it will be true, that an OM can handle more input from a player and still produce a loud quality sound - not as much as a dread or a jumbo perhaps but an OM is smaller and so more comfortable to play.

To go back to 12 frets would be fine, just different. If you like it, buy it! :-)

TheBigDipper · September 2022

I own three 14-fret acoustics (two 6-string steel, one 12-string) and three 12-fret acoustics (one parlour, one Dobro and one classical). They're all different enough that the number of frets before the neck hits the body isn't the only aspect to consider.

But I'd love to try a 12-fret version of my Brook Taw and see how that feels. I don't go down the dusty end that much on an acoustic so easy access to fret 15 wouldn't be an issue.

Cutaways? Ambivalent. Only the 12-string has a cutaway and that wasn't the reason I bought it.

thomasross20 · September 2022

I used to think body size was an issue but actually I quite like the jumbo shape (and the sound really booms). Not so much dreadnought - was never my fave shape.

@DavidRees that guitar sounds amazing!
Like I say, 9/10 on videos the 12-fret sounds less "harsh" and more natural.

I will have to try a 12-fretter. I get the feeling I would be annoyed at left hand jutting against the body but who knows, maybe not. I do play the higher frets on a few tunes but how often... not often. No money to be made above the 5th fret, apparently!

@Tannin agree also not overly keen on cutaway (and if there is one, prefer rounded contour) but if 12-fret was a go-er then would be a necessity. I had thought string tension would be less but maybe not then. I've had to get injections into my pinky knuckle due to it seizing up at times and my hand cracks and cramps (maybe due to over-use of mouse at work). Re right hand, I prefer lighter gauge strings as they feel more snappy and less tight to play/pluck - I do notice the difference with the right hand as I do a lot of fingerstyle. But I admit higher gauge brings out the sound of the guitar MUCH better.

My 22 fret Suhr electric feels easier to play than the 24 fret PRS because, as pointed out above, the left hand doesn't have to move so far out. I believe it, that moving the bridge saddle further down the guitar improves the tone, from what I've heard.

Thanks for the article @drofluf ! If 12 fretters naturally have more bass then great.

Anyway... if I see one I'll try one. But that may be years down the line.

bertie · September 2022

certainly "easier" to play (especially with my elbow/shoulder problems) and a fuller tone - my parlor is my "go to"

however, I do find capo'ing is affected far more on a short scale/12 fretter and sometimes requires a tuning tweak

guitarjack66 · September 2022

Cutaways? Designed for electric players to play acoustic too?

earwighoney · September 2022

thomasross20 said:

I will have to try a 12-fretter. I get the feeling I would be annoyed at left hand jutting against the body but who knows, maybe not. I do play the higher frets on a few tunes but how often... not often. No money to be made above the 5th fret, apparently!

Tannin agree also not overly keen on cutaway (and if there is one, prefer rounded contour) but if 12-fret was a go-er then would be a necessity. I had thought string tension would be less but maybe not then. I've had to get injections into my pinky knuckle due to it seizing up at times and my hand cracks and cramps (maybe due to over-use of mouse at work). Re right hand, I prefer lighter gauge strings as they feel more snappy and less tight to play/pluck - I do notice the difference with the right hand as I do a lot of fingerstyle. But I admit higher gauge brings out the sound of the guitar MUCH better.

My 22 fret Suhr electric feels easier to play than the 24 fret PRS because, as pointed out above, the left hand doesn't have to move so far out. I believe it, that moving the bridge saddle further down the guitar improves the tone, from what I've heard.

I have four 6 string acoustic guitars, 2 with 14 frets (OM and 14 fret 00) and 2 with 12 frets (12 fret 0 and 00) and each of them has a slightly different position for the right hand picking hand, and whichever one I'm playing takes a little to time to adjust. My hand pains aren't as serious as yours but I get them a little nonetheless when I have been playing guitar, and I have to use light strings, tune down as much as I possibly can.

My 6 strings are equally split between short scale and long scale and for the latter, after their actions were taken down and with light strings I don't think there is much difference for tension, but I'd recommend playing a few short scale guitars if you have the chance.

For your last point that I highlighted, I have 2 00 sized guitars, one with 12 frets and the other with 14. For the 12 fret, the bridge has been moved closer to the mid point of the guitar's body and it definitely brings out more bass, whilst a 14 fret's bridge position is forward and IMO balances the sound a little more. IMO, I don't think one is better or worse than the other. My 12 fret 00 has a lot of bass, sometimes a bit too much bass whilst the 14 fret 00 is a bit more balanced across. Personally, I would never get a 12 fret, larger than a 000 bodied sized guitar as that could be a bit too bassy for my liking, but all of our ears are different. Saying that, the video above sounds great, Stuart Ryan is a wonderful guitar player.

I find the 14 fret body to a bit more balanced as I go up the neck, and I prefer using those if I am using a capo or playing pieces where I use the higher frets more.

If you ever have the chance, I'd recommend borrowing someone's classical guitar if you have the chance, as they might be a bit more commonplace than a 12 fret acoustic guitar.

Fishboy7 · September 2022

The best acoustic I've owned (or played for that matter) was Martin HD28vs 12 fretter. Absolutely phenomenal guitar. The reduced access to higher frets was never an issue for me.

Pjon · September 2022

I've got a 12 fret parlour guitar, which I tend to leave in open D normally, or open G occasionally. I use it for playing bluesy stuff. It's a cheaper guitar and is fun to play, and noodle around on. It gets played less than the 14 fret OM which lives next to it, but far more than the 14 fret dread upstairs!

I was playing a friend's 12 fret Martin a few weeks ago. Lovely guitar. It took me a short while to realise that it was 12 frets - it felt much closer in playing style to my 14 fret OM than to my 12 fret parlour, but maybe I was feeling the body size more than the fretboard length, if that makes sense?

malcolmkindness · September 2022

Fishboy7 said:

The best acoustic I've owned (or played for that matter) was Martin HD28vs 12 fretter. Absolutely phenomenal guitar. The reduced access to higher frets was never an issue for me.

Yes, in fact I think all Martin 12 fret dreds are great instruments, just not easy to find on this side of the Atlantic. I own a Martin Ditson 111 and in nearly sixty years of playing guitar it's only the second one I've ever had my hands on.

ICBM · September 2022

Oddly, I would have said that I prefer 14-fretters, but when I stopped and thought about it, three of my four acoustics - including a classical - are 12-fretters! I have a 12-fret 12-string dreadnought and a parlour guitar as well. The 12-string is kept permanently tuned down to D and often capo'd at the 2nd fret, so it's effectively a 10-fretter too.

thomasross20 · September 2022

Anybody know best acoustic guitar shop in London? Might not make it there but worth knowing..

DavidR · September 2022

In terms of comfort? Out of my 6 acoustics (1 00, 1 OM, 1 dread, 1 resonator and 2 classicals. The classicals and the resonator are 12 fretters).

The most comfortable by far is the 00, followed reasonably closely by the OM. Playing the 00 in the summer outside on the garden bench is great. Can play for hours.

The resonator is nice to play but very heavy and the classicals should be played in the classical position on the left knee. As I get older, I find that increasingly uncomfortable and ache-inducing. Ditto the dread to a much less extent. It starts to become uncomfortable to my right arm and shoulder after about an hour.

The dread is my favourite instrument though. Just love it.

I don't think scale length is much of a factor for me in the comfort stakes, playing position, size of guitar and weight are all more important.

P.S. Lack of access around the 12th fret is an issue for me though. I do venture up the dusty end from time to time!

DavidR · September 2022

thomasross20 said:

Anybody know best acoustic guitar shop in London? Might not make it there but worth knowing..

For me it would be Yamaha London on Wardour St. Apart from the fact that they only sell Yamaha's of course! But it's my favourite.

Ricjo · September 2022

thomasross20 said:

Anybody know best acoustic guitar shop in London? Might not make it there but worth knowing..

GuitarGuitar Camden, for central London. Though their Epsom store typically has their best selection of acoustics.

Westside on Denmark Street is great for Martins (and Sigmas) when their stock levels are decent, which has not been the case since the pandemic.

guitarjack66 · September 2022

DavidR said:

In terms of comfort? Out of my 6 acoustics (1 00, 1 OM, 1 dread, 1 resonator and 2 classicals. The classicals and the resonator are 12 fretters).

The most comfortable by far is the 00, followed reasonably closely by the OM. Playing the 00 in the summer outside on the garden bench is great. Can play for hours.

The resonator is nice to play but very heavy and the classicals should be played in the classical position on the left knee. As I get older, I find that increasingly uncomfortable and ache-inducing. Ditto the dread to a much less extent. It starts to become uncomfortable to my right arm and shoulder after about an hour.

The dread is my favourite instrument though. Just love it.

I don't think scale length is much of a factor for me in the comfort stakes, playing position, size of guitar and weight are all more important.

P.S. Lack of access around the 12th fret is an issue for me though. I do venture up the dusty end from time to time!

I play my jumbo and GA on my left thigh and capoed at the 2nd fret. I do this as standard as I find it more comfortable anyhow.

Cig35 · October 2022

And if you can't decide if you prefer a 12 or 14-fretter, why not go for a compromise?

thomasross20 · October 2022

Wow - what on Earth? Lol...
What guitar is that?

malcolmkindness · October 2022

Cig35 said:

And if you can't decide if you prefer a 12 or 14-fretter, why not go for a compromise?

I agree, I have three 12 fretters, one 14 fret and one 13 fret, it's a good compromise but hard to find unless custom made.

Cig35 · October 2022

It's a slope shoulder dreadnought built by Olav Löf, a Finnish luthier.

Just because 12 and 14 frets are the standard there's no reason not to build a 13 fret, right? He's also built some other "13-fret" guitars in addition to mine.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/215710/loef-guitars-lana

https://www.loefguitars.fi/?p=2336

idiotwind · October 2022

Bob Dylan's main guitar in the mid-60s was a 13 fret Gibson Nick Lucas Special, probably from 1933.

ToneControl · October 2022

thomasross20 said:

Anybody know best acoustic guitar shop in London? Might not make it there but worth knowing..

for me, it was Ivor Mairants,
now Mak's - but they seem to no longer stock Santa Cruz

Also Glenn's guitars in Enfield has great guitars, but that's not really a shop AFAIK, it's appointment only

Dave_Mc · October 2022

ToneControl said:

Also Glenn's guitars in Enfield has great guitars, but that's not really a shop AFAIK, it's appointment only

Obviously this is entirely the wrong forum for this low quality joke, but if I don't say it now I'll probably forget- I wonder are PRS dealers more likely to work on an appointment-only basis? Their clientele might be more used to that...

(Just to be clear, I don't think PRSes are only for dentists, they're great guitars, but it was hard to resist posting that once I'd thought of it!)

thomasross20 · July 2023

I have been lusting lately over 12 frets..

My parlour is great but I really want a gloss finish cutaway with longer scale. I must admit that the 13 fret is very intriguing... @Cig35 how are you getting on with yours? I must check that builder on YouTube and others to check out the "13 fret sound"

Th4fonz · August 2023

I’m not into cutaways at all but 12 fretters from my experience all just sound better when comparing to a 14.

Cig35 · August 2023

thomasross20 said:

I have been lusting lately over 12 frets..

My parlour is great but I really want a gloss finish cutaway with longer scale. I must admit that the 13 fret is very intriguing... @Cig35 how are you getting on with yours? I must check that builder on YouTube and others to check out the "13 fret sound"

Which one?

Slope shoulder, 650 mm scale or 00. 630 mm scale?

Since they are both one-offs from a luthier it's difficult to compare the sound to a similar 12 or 14 fret since I don't have guitars built in the same way with the same woods available. But I do love playing both of them and am impressed with the sound and playability. Just going away for vacation now and will be gone for a week, but will try to record some sound-clips after that without any processing of the sound.

But here are examples of some 13 frets from Loef guitars recorded;

- Parlor, spruce/birch

- 00, spruce/rowan

- 00, unknown woods

And I'm sure Martin Tallström also has recorded some 13 fret Loef guitars when he has tried them before they were shipped to the customer. I also think the Loef parlor he owns is a 13 fret

Dyldog16 · August 2023

My all time favourite guitar is my Braz Greven 0000 FXN Deluxe (12 frets) which John made for me about 5 years ago. The combination of the soundhole placement in a larger box size & string tension create a lush, airy & highly emotive tone.I also have a Kevin Kopp Roy Smeck "hog" 12 fretter which provides a more crisp,focused (but complex) vintage Gibsonesque vibe. The shallower body of the Kopp & hog nuances combine with the more centrally positioned soundhole placement. Twelve fretters are "heaven" for fingerstyle players & often great strummers too. But from my own experience, there tends to be a slight delay in attack & excessive airiness for main strumming purposes. But my own are great all rounders. The one demerit is the use of capo on only 12 frets but that's not a big deal to me. But I would certainly highly recommend any 12 frettter to be included in any fingerstyle player's collection.

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