It's quite astonishing how little most singers know about music ...

Hattigol · September 2022

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Either way, I was just saying that Jacko has no place in a thread about singers who don't have a scooby-doo about music.

the_jaffa · September 2022

Hattigol said:

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Either way, I was just saying that Jacko has no place in a thread about singers who don't have a scooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-doo-dah-day about music.

FTFY

Blueingreen · September 2022

To put an opposing slant on this I've been looking at some videos by Christiaan van Hemert, gypsy jazz violinist, guitarist and musical educator. Particularly a couple on ear-training, although I think what he says can be extended to theory as well.

He's actually quite negative about ear-training. He's not saying a trained ear is a bad thing, but he's saying it trains you to do things that are not core to what you need (in this particular case to play jazz guitar in a band). And that your time would be better spent learning things you do need to know (like a jazz vocabulary, for example). And I'm pretty sure he'd make the same argument about theory: that depending on your goals learning it is just not an efficient use of your time. I'm sure he'd say that most singers are perfectly right not to spend time learning theory.

What I found most interesting, because it cut across all the conventional wisdom on the subject, is that he says when he's playing - obviously at a high level - he frequently comes across people who are great players but don't have what are generally considered to be the signs of a good ear. They can't play back a melody they haven't heard before without hunting and pecking and getting it wrong. They can't hear a minor 7 flat 5 chord and know that's what it is. But they can go on stage with high level musicians, hold their own, and improvise great guitar lines.

This is not an excuse for his own failings. He'd accept that as a professional music educator he does need to know theory, unlike people who just want to play. And he has perfect pitch.

I've always accepted the conventional wisdom that to play jazz at a high level you need ears like an elephant. One thought is that "gypsy jazz", which is his main interest, is a special case, not as sophisticated as modern and later jazz. But it would still be as, or more, harmonically sophisticated as the vast majority of rock/pop for example.

I'm not suggesting that I swallow this whole. I still on balance think that a trained ear must help, and that knowledge of theory must help. I believe that being able to read music helps, mainly for reasons that I think tend to get overlooked when the subject is debated. But it's an interesting contrarian view from a guy who's obviously an outstanding musician and thinker about music education.

CaseOfAce · September 2022

Hattigol said:

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Either way, I was just saying that Jacko has no place in a thread about singers who don't have a scooby-doo about music.

OK - perhaps I should have been clearer in the thread title then - non-instrument playing singers who know nothing about music THEORY.

In which case let's take Michael Jackson - I've never seen a pic of him with a guitar in his hand or at a piano.
If someone does please post it and you can disregard the rest of this post.

Billie Jean - he's listed as the sole songwriter. If we take that at face value then how did he write it?
I'm guessing he came up with the vocal melody in his head - got in a room with a piano / synth guy / Quincy Jones - who harmonised it whilst he scat sang the parts - and then proceeded to flesh out the song.
Did Jacko have a scoobies about the key / chords...probably not?
Does he prove my observation. Yep.

slacker · September 2022

Anecdotal stories are just the experience of an individual. Going backwards including current ones

Me
Singer writes songs with a melody, we provide the chords
Singer plays guitar
Multiple singers were hopeless
Singer played guitar bass and drums
Singer played keys bass and guitar
Singer played keys
Singer couldn't sing
Singer didn't play an instrument and would listen to other people
As above
As above

In most cases the singer was either a musician or would take advice. It's down to people, some are ok and some are not. Some people want to be in a band and have no talent so they sing in the loosest sense of the word.

equalsql · September 2022

I did some recordings many years ago with a girl singer who had a beautiful voice, very rich with a wonderful vibrato. However she only was able to sing a few scale patterns. In one of the songs that I'd written there was a point where the melody went up through four notes chromatically Ab -> B and for some reason she just could not hear or understand the intervals. She could sing Ab to Bb to B but just not the four notes. When I tried here on any chromatic scale she struggled.
It was the strangest thing (?)

ROOG · September 2022

vasselmeyer said:

"she has no idea what she's doing but it sounds great."

Its wonderful isn't it?
I guess its reasonably intuitive because thats how music came about.

Danny1969 · September 2022

CaseOfAce said:

Hattigol said:

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Either way, I was just saying that Jacko has no place in a thread about singers who don't have a scooby-doo about music.

OK - perhaps I should have been clearer in the thread title then - non-instrument playing singers who know nothing about music THEORY.

In which case let's take Michael Jackson - I've never seen a pic of him with a guitar in his hand or at a piano.
If someone does please post it and you can disregard the rest of this post.

Billie Jean - he's listed as the sole songwriter. If we take that at face value then how did he write it?
I'm guessing he came up with the vocal melody in his head - got in a room with a piano / synth guy / Quincy Jones - who harmonised it whilst he scat sang the parts - and then proceeded to flesh out the song.
Did Jacko have a scoobies about the key / chords...probably not?
Does he prove my observation. Yep.

Jackson can play keyboards just fine, there's loads of footage with him playing keys .... he also knows about keys and has requested key changes from session musos in pre production

Not a fan of him myself for many reasons but he can play

stickyfiddle · September 2022

For the most part MJ would compose almost everything vocally then leave it to the producers to transfer that to instrument and a full arrangement. That extended to baselines, synth parts, drums, all sorts.

https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/the-incredible-way-michael-jackson-wrote-music-16799

TeleMaster · September 2022

Lol yea. Our singer is great but every lead is an 'auxillary'. I don't know what that means.

JayGee · September 2022

JMS96 said:

And they invent some total BS about why we have to play it in the original key…

It’s usually been the opposite for me with singers asking for things to be transposed (which is fair enough, I totally get the thing about voices not having a capo) with absolutely no consideration for the implications in terms of open chord shapes, open string drones, use of feedback (some notes just won’t for me…) etc, or occasionally forcing my fingers so far up the fretboard that my clumsy sausage fingers simply won’t fi in the required places…

Roland · September 2022

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

EricTheWeary · September 2022

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are.

4on6 · September 2022

I’ve worked with a variety of singers from those that had perfect pitch and could play every instrument in the band .. very well… to those that really had no language interface to signal what they wanted me to do (frustrating and time consuming fo sho)… but I’ve learnt to respect and support most of them… they’re the ones that the majority of the audience relate to most… the ones that tell the story… they are often the conduit of energy between band and audience.. they are at the front because they have a stronger impulse to connect directly with a room full of people and their instrument is their body… and the band works best when we all know how our roles fit together to create music that means something.

Doesn’t mean I don’t get pretty annoyed at trying to explain a minor 3rd or beat 2 for the hundredth time.

Hattigol · September 2022

EricTheWeary said:

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are.

Exactly this. The drummer in my old band said once 'let's take it from where you sing "landslide"''. Baffled singer checks his lyrics. No mention of landslide. The word was 'unanswered'. We'd been playing it about three years...

I have no idea of lyrics other than as triggers for changes in the guitar part.

viz · September 2022

Hattigol said:

EricTheWeary said:

Roland said:

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion is that we each listen to different aspects of a song. The drummer might say “let’s take it from the third chorus” but the bass player sees that as the pre-chorus because he plays a different pattern, and I think of it as a bridge because it only happens once in that song. Similarly, I’ll play xx5343, but whether it’s Eb or Cm7 depends on what the bass is playing. Unless the singer knows plays the song on an instrument then there’s no need for her to know which chord it is. She may be thinking “transition to head voice” or “the bit where I need to fit all those words in”.

...and the singer gets exasperated because s/he says take it from the line '*""£_&++' and realises no one else in the band has the foggiest what the lyrics are.

Exactly this. The drummer in my old band said once 'let's take it from where you sing "landslide"''. Baffled singer checks his lyrics. No mention of landslide. The word was 'unanswered'. We'd been playing it about three years...

Lol brilliant.

Slash'N'burn · October 2022

In my last band, the female singer didn't play an instrument but took a real Interest in the guitar sounds, and would make great suggestions that would shape the songs. She particularly liked the sound of a Boss Flanger, and would have ideas of where it should come in/out, and how much etc.
I think while the rest of us where concentrating on our own instruments she could 'hear' the overall sound much better, and always had ideas for dynamics and structure changes that the rest of wouldn't of thought of, it definately improved us.

uncledick · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

To be honest a lot of musicians in bands have very little idea what's really going on. With guitarist generally being the worse. They can play the song because they have learnt it either by ear or tab but they don't understand what's happening interval wise so in a lot of cases can't instantly transpose the piece or harmonise without working it out first.

Even something as simple as the key is often misunderstood with a lot of people assuming the first chord played is the key of the song. Then during solo's completely avoidable mistakes are made because they don't know what notes are in the key and they don't know what chords they are playing over.

I see a lot of pub bands with some players who have a lovely feel and really nice control of bends and expression f#ck up constantly because they haven't bothered to study a bit of theory.

I always think no one expects everybody in the band to be some kind of musical professor but to not bother to learn anything at all theory wise is kind of making life difficult for the sake of it ... like some weird badge of honour.

I know you're right and will admit to being very limited on theory. I've played, on and off, for 50 years but haven't had a single lesson. Watching your tutorial on Mr Brightside is the nearest I've been! (forever grateful

). I think the problem - to use an analogy - is that people see it as like learning to drive and then suddenly being expected to understand when their EGR system will open up, and whether the air mass meter should see a rise or fall in its output voltage. I could rebuild an engine years before I could drive and it is clear that there are musicians who, in a similar vein, will take a sound theoretical knowledge and then apply it to a piece of music and tell a fellow player which chords will work in any given scenario.

I suppose a good tutor would watch someone and then know where the next development step might be. Your phrase "they haven't bothered to learn a bit of theory" is very telling. I'd happily sit for an hour or two and learn "a bit of theory", but which bit?? AAarrghh!

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It's quite astonishing how little most singers know about music ...

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