It's quite astonishing how little most singers know about music ...

CaseOfAce · September 2022

...and frankly don't care.

I don't think I've ever worked with a singer who knew what keys songs were in let alone chords, scales, arrangements etc. It's almost like "you play guitar - why can't you make it sound like the record?"
At most it's "what note do I come in on this?"

Guitar gear is dark arts stuff - I think I've only used one piece of gear a singer remarked on in the last 10 years and that was a wah-wah pedal. I sometimes wonder if they even know what my amplifier does other than "make a guitar sound".

It's not just amateurs - check out the This Is It / Michael Jackson doc on netflix right now - and see MJ mimicking musical sounds and beats and how it "needs to sound like on the record" to his musical director keyboardist when working out a song!

vasselmeyer · September 2022

You're 100% right on that. Pretty much all the singers I have worked with use "key", "chord", "register", and "range" interchangeably and you just have to work out the context they're using.

Our current singer can sing a harmony instinctively and she has no idea what she's doing but it sounds great.

thecolourbox · September 2022

I think singing for people who are natural at it (rather than an instrumental player who sings a bit) is a different experience as they act on instinct and from knowing what their voice does, compared to say learning a guitar or Piano where you can learn from a set of defined things the instrument can do for anybody. Singing is very specific to each individual and while you can learn new techniques, music theory isn't really necessary.

To a guitarist, knowing what key it's in changes where you fret your chords, but for a singer it's just "can I get high/low enough" so not really a case of adapting, it's can I or can I not. Ask a guitarist to play an A note and you can do it on demand, it's uncommon for a singer do be able to do that without a guide, but whether do they need to add they'll just listen to what is accompanying them and come in where they need to as appropriate

JMS96 · September 2022

And they invent some total BS about why we have to play it in the original key…
… and then randomly play the tambourine whenever it suits them over your guitar solo…

digitalkettle · September 2022

JMS96 said:

… and then randomly play the tambourine whenever it suits them over your guitar solo…

But only at gigs...having never rehearsed singing and rattling the tambo' simultaneously!

Rocker · September 2022

I don’t like these cheap shot threads that belittle the efforts of fellow band members. Does it really matter if the singer does not know what key he/she sings a song in? Finding out that information is one of the tasks needed at rehearsals.

I remember many occasions, at wedding receptions, when the bride got on stage to sing her party piece. Most of the did not know the name of the song let alone the key or tempo. It goes like this ......., while we the band work out the key and tempo on the fly.

stickyfiddle · September 2022

I've just joined my first band in almost a decade and thankfully our singer is great - she understands the concepts of everything if not the mechanics of it all.

We have more singers lining up, and a potential guitarist we haven't met yet - they're making me far more nervous right now!

CaseOfAce · September 2022

Rocker said:

I don’t like these cheap shot threads that belittle the efforts of fellow band members. Does it really matter if the singer does not know what key he/she sings a song in? Finding out that information is one of the tasks needed at rehearsals.

I remember many occasions, at wedding receptions, when the bride got on stage to sing her party piece. Most of the did not know the name of the song let alone the key or tempo. It goes like this ......., while we the band work out the key and tempo on the fly.

Hey lighten up, Francis!
It's an observation I've found to be true over the years- nothing more, nothing less.
There's no malicious intent involved.

EricTheWeary · September 2022

I've auditioned singers who were used to singing at home/karaoke who could hold a tune but got lost in any kind of band setting because it meant they lost what they were using as cues ie the existing vocal. So their timing is all over the place. I don't think music theory matters ('can we try this a bit lower because I can't hit the highest notes' is fine) overly much but the ability to count to four goes a long way.
I think my music theory is okay but having been in a band with two music teachers who seemed to think it was their duty to correct me so a)my theory is lacking and b) they knew what I meant so why does it matter...

thecolourbox · September 2022

For some people, the best thing about knowing music theory is that they get to correct others. Similar to those who correct spelling, evangelical vegans or ex-forces, or expert wine tasters

Snags · September 2022

It's not just singers. I frequently chat with people who play and sing regularly, and they say "do you want to do X?" and I'll say "What key are you doing it in?" and get a blank look. Or "Do you want to change the key to make it easier to sing?" and get a blank look. End up having to translate to "what chord do you start and end on?".

Or the other one, with fucking guitarists when you say "What key are you playing it in?" and they confidently say "G!" so you start playing, it sounds gash, and you look over and discover they're playing G shapes at capo 3 ...

mudslide73 · September 2022

Our singer often asks where he should come in. I say "well, I know when I come in!". There's a lot he's very good at though so I can't complain.

Keefy · September 2022

Bars.

No singer knows what a bar is. To them it’s just whatever chunk of time they want it to be.

DesVegas · September 2022

A songbird can't read music either

monquixote · September 2022

How much do you know about singing?

The number of bands I've played in where musicians whinge about playing in a key which suits the singers range. It's not like you have a vocal capo.

fastonebaz · September 2022

The singer sings in the key i tell them the song must be played in. Can't be doing with those flat and sharp root chord songs.

Tannin · September 2022

thecolourbox said:

I think singing for people who are natural at it (rather than an instrumental player who sings a bit) is a different experience as they act on instinct and from knowing what their voice does, compared to say learning a guitar or Piano where you can learn from a set of defined things the instrument can do for anybody. Singing is very specific to each individual and while you can learn new techniques, music theory isn't really necessary.

As an instrumental player who sings a bit, I'm going to put my hand up here and observe that while I'm generally fairly conscious that I'm playing (say) a flat 5 or a major 7 on the guitar, I usually have no clue what I'm singing. I just do it. I'm thinking about timing and phrasing - and trying to remember the damn words! - and keeping one eye on my guitar playing 'coz I don't want to mess that up just because I'm singing.

Are we all like that? ("All" meaning "all of us who play an instrument and sing a bit".)

Tannin · September 2022

Keefy said:

Bars.

No singer knows what a bar is. To them it’s just whatever chunk of time they want it to be.

Contrast with drummers, who (in my experience) always know exactly where the bar is and, if they are not playing, can usually be found in front of it. Or in some cases under it.

thecolourbox · September 2022

Tannin said:

thecolourbox said:

I think singing for people who are natural at it (rather than an instrumental player who sings a bit) is a different experience as they act on instinct and from knowing what their voice does, compared to say learning a guitar or Piano where you can learn from a set of defined things the instrument can do for anybody. Singing is very specific to each individual and while you can learn new techniques, music theory isn't really necessary.

As an instrumental player who sings a bit, I'm going to put my hand up here and observe that while I'm generally fairly conscious that I'm playing (say) a flat 5 or a major 7 on the guitar, I usually have no clue what I'm singing. I just do it. I'm thinking about timing and phrasing - and trying to remember the damn words! - and keeping one eye on my guitar playing 'coz I don't want to mess that up just because I'm singing.

Are we all like that? ("All" meaning "all of us who play an instrument and sing a bit".)

That's interesting, I'm not like that personally but I can understand that people might be - there's something about singing in general that's more about feeling and natural instinct than an instrument.

I'm not like that because I was heavy schooled in the music theory stuff as a kid doing piano lessons so I'm always very conscious and aware of exactly what notes I'm playing or singing and what they look like written on the page haha much to my detriment - hence my singing is very limited and... To be honest... Quite dull

darthed1981 · September 2022

Snags said:
Or the other one, with fucking guitarists when you say "What key are you playing it in?" and they confidently say "G!" so you start playing, it sounds gash, and you look over and discover they're playing G shapes at capo 3 ...

You been jamming with Noel G?

Everything is capo 3 with him these days.

Danny1969 · September 2022

To be honest a lot of musicians in bands have very little idea what's really going on. With guitarist generally being the worse. They can play the song because they have learnt it either by ear or tab but they don't understand what's happening interval wise so in a lot of cases can't instantly transpose the piece or harmonise without working it out first.

Even something as simple as the key is often misunderstood with a lot of people assuming the first chord played is the key of the song. Then during solo's completely avoidable mistakes are made because they don't know what notes are in the key and they don't know what chords they are playing over.

I see a lot of pub bands with some players who have a lovely feel and really nice control of bends and expression f#ck up constantly because they haven't bothered to study a bit of theory.

I always think no one expects everybody in the band to be some kind of musical professor but to not bother to learn anything at all theory wise is kind of making life difficult for the sake of it ... like some weird badge of honour.

TheBigDipper · September 2022

Danny1969 said:

<snip>
I always think no one expects everybody in the band to be some kind of musical professor but to not bother to learn anything at all theory wise is kind of making life difficult for the sake of it ... like some weird badge of honour.

This ^^^

In the past few months I've come into contact with two people (one singer, one guitarist) who don't understand basic time signatures and the idea of a bar of music. They couldn't even come in on the first beat of a bar. In a 4/4 piece, we'd count 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and they'd start on the 4, not the next 1.

And as for the drummer I played with in one band who insisted that 6/8 and 3/4 were the same thing because they lasted for the same length of time...

fretmeister · September 2022

Me: Hey Singer! I have an idea. Why don’t we try that again but this time do the first and last verse in G, the 2 verse in C#, the chorus in Fminor and the bridge in B flat.

Singer: How will I remember all that?

Me: Just do what you did last time!

DefaultM · September 2022

The original post describes 98% of guitarists.

VimFuego · September 2022

I kinda get what people are saying about music theory etc, and I think they are very valid points. In order to communicate with other musicians, especially ones who play different instruments, you need to speak the same language.
The caveat to that is that the single most important skill a musician can have is their ears (a skill I lack in bucket loads, not something I am proud of). One of my all time fave musicians is a chap called Andy Cutting. He's a completely self taught and un schooled melodeon (button accordion) player, who is one of the most in demand session musicians on the folk circuit. He can't read, by his own admission, a single note, but he has an exceptional ear and can quickly pick up stuff, then improvise and improve it.

HAL9000 · September 2022

I remember seeing a band advertising for musicians and a singer - says it all really doesn’t it?

Danny1969 · September 2022

VimFuego said:

I kinda get what people are saying about music theory etc, and I think they are very valid points. In order to communicate with other musicians, especially ones who play different instruments, you need to speak the same language.
The caveat to that is that the single most important skill a musician can have is their ears (a skill I lack in bucket loads, not something I am proud of). One of my all time fave musicians is a chap called Andy Cutting. He's a completely self taught and un schooled melodeon (button accordion) player, who is one of the most in demand session musicians on the folk circuit. He can't read, by his own admission, a single note, but he has an exceptional ear and can quickly pick up stuff, then improvise and improve it.

Being able to read music isn't that important in my experience. Mainly because you can't move around on stage with the various spots and flashes going on and be able to read a sheet of paper. A great ear is a wonderful thing but the it kind of says it in the description ... you need to "hear it" before you can play it right. a bit of fiddling around and within seconds it's there. A bit if theory applied to that great ear will generally remove the need to hear it and that 2 seconds. Im my experience anyway.

Hattigol · September 2022

CaseOfAce said:

.
It's not just amateurs - check out the This Is It / Michael Jackson doc on netflix right now - and see MJ mimicking musical sounds and beats and how it "needs to sound like on the record" to his musical director keyboardist when working out a song!

You probably couldn't have picked a worse example.

In Bob Geldof's autobiography, he talks about when he went to the States for the recording of We Are The World. They gave Jacko the sheet music and asked him to give it a run-through on the vocals. Never seen it before - nailed it first take.

Producer then says could you do a harmony on the fifth? Sure no problem. Done Then a harmony on the third? Again, nailed.

If that's not knowing much about music, I hate to think what level most of us are at...

thecolourbox · September 2022

Presumably MJ was just talking in a language the people he was instructing would understand.

PolarityMan · September 2022

Danny1969 said:

To be honest a lot of musicians in bands have very little idea what's really going on. With guitarist generally being the worse. They can play the song because they have learnt it either by ear or tab but they don't understand what's happening interval wise so in a lot of cases can't instantly transpose the piece or harmonise without working it out first.

You're right but in some styles it doesn't matter. Its like you can be as hot as you like on intervals but you're not going to be able to transpose a lot of stuff on the fly because of the importance of the open strings in making it actually physically possible to play.

There's also the people who just cowboy chord a song then transpose it that way and basically lose the entire essence of the guitar part. I've seen this done with stuiff like nothing else matter for example.

In my opinion there's a lot of rock music that can only be transposed acceptably by re-tuning (or with pedals I guess these days).

CaseOfAce · September 2022

Hattigol said:

CaseOfAce said:

.
It's not just amateurs - check out the This Is It / Michael Jackson doc on netflix right now - and see MJ mimicking musical sounds and beats and how it "needs to sound like on the record" to his musical director keyboardist when working out a song!

You probably couldn't have picked a worse example.

In Bob Geldof's autobiography, he talks about when he went to the States for the recording of We Are The World. They gave Jacko the sheet music and asked him to give it a run-through on the vocals. Never seen it before - nailed it first take.

Producer then says could you do a harmony on the fifth? Sure no problem. Done Then a harmony on the third? Again, nailed.

If that's not knowing much about music, I hate to think what level most of us are at...

Interesting but my take would be "could Jacko vocalise the top line melody of a piece of sheet music at first glance?" Possibly.
Perhaps he had piano lessons as a kid, learnt to read music?
Or perhaps someone sang him the basic part and he took it and made it his own?

As for harmonies - I'd say someone like that who'd been in studios since a young age with the Jackson Five and then later with Quincy Jones doing a 100 takes of Billie Jean etc.. yeah - Quincy says do a fifth harmony - Jacko would have got know the sound of particular harmonies well... and could reproduce 'em on tap.

So ... my take is that Jacko was one of those people with a "great ear" for music - much like McCartney..

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It's quite astonishing how little most singers know about music ...

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