Slow guitar day (a custom build)

Tannin · June 2022

NEW BUILD - WHAT TIMBERS?

Early last year I paid a deposit and got into my local luthier's build queue. There are still a few jobs in front of me but we are getting close enough to a start to be selecting timbers and keeping an eye out for suitable sets. (Some of them are hard to get, so best to start looking early.)

Lots of things still to decide, but right from the start the plan has been to build a baritone, specs as follows:

* Baritone, tuned to C. (Same low note as a cello.)
* 730mm scale (29 inches).
* Big jumbo body, 450mm (18 inches) across the lower bout, 550mm long (22 inches).
* 15th fret neck-body join
* No cutaway.

These are the same dimensions as my wonderful old Tacoma Thunderhawk. I have played shorter scale baritones (mostly Taylors) and come away unimpressed. Long scale rULeZ!

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/201010_164105_7D2.jpg

(On the left, Tacoma Thunderhawk.)

Anyway, I want another one. Same theme, different variation.

We are going to use the same basic dimensions (as they work so well) but Paul will build it his way - that will mean:

* Paisley sound-hole ---> conventional round sound hole
* modified X bracing (lighter because of the mechanically superior sound hole placement) ---> falcate bracing (curved, very light braces constructed from balsa and carbon fibre)

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/m_build_bracing.jpg

(Falcate bracing. This is actually a build shot from my concert guitar, also made by Paul.)

Now we get to the big question. What timbers?

I'm thinking about a combination something along the lines of cedar and walnut, only in all-local tonewoods (if possible).

* Neck: probably Blackwood (Paul's usual go-to neck timber) or Queensland Maple. It's a very long neck so whatever he thinks will be nice and stable.

* Back and sides. Was going to be Tiger Myrtle (a type of Myrtle Beech, a Southern Hemisphere special unknown in the north) but I now have a Tiger Myrtle guitar (the one pictured just above) and although I think it would be tonally ideal, I'd like to go with something different (just because I love all those different beautiful timbers).

So I'm thinking of Blackheart Sassafras. It's a spectacular timber, but also said to be an excellent tonewood, fairly neutral in colour, broadly similar to walnut. Here are a couple of examples.

Paul cautions that the "blackheart" staining is a fairly rare fungus, so the wood is hard to get and by its very nature starting to decay (the fungus won't grow in a young, healthy tree). It will have cosmetic imperfections. I'm fine with that.

Fretboard: Ebony would be tonally right I think, but I'm looking to go all local. The most popular local fretboard timber is sheoak (any of several casurina species), with Mulga (sometimes called, incorrectly, "Desert Acacia") also becoming established. Mulga would be good but today I dropped a sample of Spotted Gum into Paul for him to play with.

Spotted Gum (Corymbia maculata) is native to New South Wales. It's a bloodwood (i.e., so closely related to the eucalypts that most people can't tell them apart) and is grown for specialist uses including outdoor decking in bushfire-prone districts (because it doesn't burn well) and (of all things) wooden bearings for old-style horse-drawn carts (because it is very hard and a bit oily and doesn't wear out). Having used bits of leftover Spotted Gum decking here at home for odd jobs, I have learned that it is heavy, very hard, and rather difficult to work. It blunts tools at a ferocious rate . In other words, it's just like ebony, so I reckon it might just make a brilliant fretboard material. Anyway, Paul can play with the sample I gave him and we can go from there.

* Top: not sure yet. King Billy Pine is a possibility. Maybe Bunya, maybe Huon Pine - I'm still thinking that over.

All thoughts welcome!

Tannin · June 2022

Below, a Blackheart Sassafras guitar. This one is a Maton but it should give an idea of what the timber looks like.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/sassafras.jpg

Paul completed his most recent build some time ago (I posted pictures of it in another thread). It's just been waiting for the case to arrive so that he can ship it off to his customer in Singapore. He ordered a Hiscox case in December. After a long wait, they said it would arrive in April. Then it was delayed again. Now Hiscox are saying they won't ship it until August. That's nine bloody months! And what's to say it will actually arrive even then?

I offered to give Paul my case, which is identical in every way and in perfect as-new condition, and he can replace it whenever Hiscox actually feel like filling a nine-month-old order. Now his customer can get his long-awaited new guitar, Paul can get paid, and I won't miss having the case for a few months - the guitar seldom leaves the house and I have other cases I can use if I need to.

So today I dropped that case in and we had a look through his stash of wood for some King Billy Pine to make a top out of.

Yes, I've decided to make the top in King Billy, and it just so happens that Paul has a bit the right size. (It's a very wide lower bout, so most top sets aren't wide enough.) Lovely looking bit of timber. Next time I'm there I'll take a picture.

Now all we have to do is find a back and sides set. That is something he will have to buy in, he doesn't have any Blackheart Sassafras on hand. He hasn't built anything in it before but it is said to be a pleasant timber, easy to work. As for the King Billy, that is an old friend: there is a harp guitar hanging on his wall he built 20 years ago with a King Billy Pine top.

Soupman · June 2022

Fabulous! That neck looks a stunner too - what wood is it?

Mellish · June 2022

Not sure. I think if it was me, I'd go for something completely new, something that I hadn't had before.

Is there something you've always wanted but never pulled the trigger?

Mellish · June 2022

Read through, I see you've made up your mind

Well good luck mate, hope it turns out great.

Tannin · June 2022

@Soupman yes, it's certainly a spectacular timber. Every piece is different of course, so we have to hunt around and find something we like. Choice will be limited (a) because it is rare, and (b) because of the very large jumbo body we need an oversize set.

That neck pictured above is Blackwood, a very special example, almost certainly from the Otway Ranges in southern Victoria and supplied by this chap:

If I'm any guess, it will be a bit of the same tree that supplied the wood for the headstock veneer of my WA May (top right below).

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/220505_115815_1D4c.jpg

Both guitars were made by Andy Allen at the Maton Custom Shop, so it's likely. (It is very rare to see Blackwood with so much flame. One tree in hundreds, maybe thousands. I see that the guitar I nicked the picture of is selling for $8500 (£4900 plus VAT) so they have really cranked the price up for that one!)

Soupman · June 2022

Wow, loved the video - that guy is a real craftsman.

Tannin · June 2022

Mellish said:

Not sure. I think if it was me, I'd go for something completely new, something that I hadn't had before.

Is there something you've always wanted but never pulled the trigger?

Great question @Mellish.

Three answers are obvious:

1: something electric. (I only have acoustics.)

2: An archtop.

3: A resonator.

(1) is out of the question. I really, really suck at playing electric. And truth be told, I'm quite happy to let other people play electric, just as I'm happy to let drummers drum and violinists fiddle. It's not my instrument. Never was. I've owned a Rickenbacker and a good Les Paul back in the day and they didn't make me any less worse. In any case, I don't have anywhere to play it.

(2): Archtops. I love the look of them and the romance .... but to be honest I don't much care for the way they sound. Plink, plink, plink .... not really my thing.

(3) Resonators. They are too bloody loud! I owned one years ago and liked it a lot, and I might go that way again one day but I haven't played slide in 30 years and I'm not sure I really want to anymore. Not enough to make it worth buying one and practicing for ages anyway. There is a chap in Adelaide who makes resonators to order - http://www.donmo.com/Guitarsite/Guitars.html - and sometimes I toy with the idea of a nice brass tricone. But I'd have to go up to the shed to play it - Mrs Tannin is very easy-going but it pays not to push the friendship too far.

Classical? Maybe one day. I need to borrow one and see if I like it or not, but I don't have any friends who own one.

Banjo? Don't shoot me, I rather like banjo. Never played one.

I have reasons for wanting another baritone, which I'll bore you with some other time, but to summarise, I think it will be quite different to the Thunderhawk, as different as (say) a Lowden and a D-18.But I like your thinking.

Mellish · June 2022

I have a five-string openback banjo. Been playing for years. Nice as something different.

I don't know what brands are in Oz but Ome is a very good, small American company. I have their North Star

earwighoney · June 2022

@Tannin who is the local guitar maker you have commissions with?

I was in A&E a few weeks back, with a long waiting time without WiFi access and had a mild concussion. I wasn't able to do much so I penned the spec of a custom guitar which is unlikely to ever be commissioned. I'd prefer to move away from the use of endangered rainforest woods where possible, I own a few nice guitars with timbers of such a nature, I'd like something a little different if I commissioned something new.

Size - 12 Fret 00.

It doesn't seem to be the preferred choice for many, but I am a big fan. It is the closest to the classical/flamenco guitar. Our ears are subjective, and this body size be most for 12 frets seems to be the most balanced for my fingerstyle needs. The 12 fret Martin 00-21 is my reference point of sorts behind the build.

Soundboard

Spruce of some kind, I own a few nice guitars with European Spruce, which sounds spectacular, but I've noticed they are very temperamental to humidity, and I'd be a little apprehensive to get another with European Spruce, but again it's one of the ones which I'd lean towards whichever variety of spruce the luthier is the most comfortable with.

Braced to luthier's choice.

Back and Sides

At this moment in time, I am leaning towards Black Locust. I've read some great things about it, it's a reasonably common tree in Europe, and is supposed to sound a lot like Indian Rosewood. The great luthier John Arnold is a huge fan of it, prefers it to the latter, it's supposed to be incredibly stable as well and quite cheap as well.

Fretboard/Bridge/Frets

Rocklite for the fretboard, Indian Rosewood for the bridge, Medium EVO Gold Frets, no inlay on the fretboard.

Neck

Again, this is something which is the luthier's choice, but I'd like something which is laminated, reinforced with graphite, 2 way truss rod.

Neck Shape,

I have a 00-14 with a C to V neck, which is absolutely wonderful, and I'd ask for something along those lines.

Nut width & String Spacing at the saddle

1 13/16" at the nut, 2 5/16" at the bridge

Headstock/Tuners

Slotted headstock (a paddle head on a 12 fret body doesn't look right to my tastes!). Gotoh SEP-700 tuners.

Tannin · July 2022

Woops! I wrote this last month and neglected to hit "Post comment"! I love the way the Fretboard software remembers these things and preserved the ramblings below for me.

Cheers @earwighoney Paul Mineur is based in Hobart. He builds just a few guitars each year, alongside other work from repairs and setups to jewellery boxes and engravings. At the moment he's doing (of all things) an autoharp. Also in progress he has a very small travel guitar which looks like a ukulele but isn't (I'll be interested to hear what that one sounds like when it's done!) and then I think my build is next after that. https://www.paulmineur.com.au/gallery ;

On to your thoughts. I'd never heard of Black Locust, so reading up on that was a bit of a rabbit hole. It sounds like a great idea - like you, I am over this caper of raping tropical forests looking for more and more rosewood and ebony and mahogany. There are so many other great timbers to explore! (I do have rosewood and mahogany guitars, but only one of each. One is enough.)

12-fret: now there is a good thought. I don't have a 12-fretter. That could go on my one-of-these-days list. I haven't played a Martin 00-21 but the thought of a bass-rich small Martin body in rosewood or similar in a 12-fretter is intriguing. (I'm imagining something a bit like a rosewood 000-18.)

I had to dig out a spreadsheet to work out what on earth 1 13/16" means but it turns out to be 46mm - the perfect nut width in my opinion.

I have always liked wide necks. I learned on a cheap classical guitar, and my first "real" guitar was a Eston (Eko) 12-string. I had that for many years. Not long afterwards, I bought a Yamaha 12-string which I had for another 30-odd years. I've had various other guitars but one way or another I've done most of my playing on wide necks, 48 and 50mm in the main. That just feels natural to me.

My Thunderhawk has a 48mm nut. I was going to make the new baritone the same, however starting about a year ago I've been battling with left-arm injuries. I've worked out that five things do the damage:

(1) Playing a lot
(2) Playing high-strength shapes (e.g., barring with the little finger; hammering on and pulling off with a finger which is a long way away from the centre of my hand).
(3) Heavy strings and high actions. These multiply the strain.
(4) Playing stretchy shapes, Four-fret chords tend to impose more strain. Five fret chords are worse, The same shapes played on the lower frets are harder than they are up the neck where the frets are closer together.
(5) Wide necks. I play better and faster and cleaner on wider necks, but they do put more strain on my arm muscles.

So I'm going with a nut width between 46 and 47mm as the best compromise.

Tannin · July 2022

Progress, of a sort. I sat down with Paul the other day and fleshed out some details.

Here is the back and sides set we have our eye on. Paul is going to go and have a look at it in person over the weekend and if he likes it, that will be the one. https://www.tasmanianacoustictonewood.com.au/collections/blackheart-sassafras/products/tasmanian-blackheart-sassafras-acoustic-guitar-tonewood-bha9

We already have the King Billy Pine top set. As for the neck, Paul likes Blackwood and has several suitable bits, but he also mentioned (to my considerable surprise) Celery Top Pine. This is yet another of the Tasmanian specials, found in no other place. Paul says it is quite hard and heavy for a pine, and he'd be happy to use the right piece of it for a neck. Now Blackwood would probably look a little nicer, but I'm a sucker for different timbers and I think I might go that way. All else aside, it would give me the full set of all five special Tasmanian timbers: Huon Pine (Cole Clark Angel top), King Billy (baritone top), (Celery Top (baritone neck), Tiger Myrtle (Mineur concert back and sides), and Black-heart Sassafras (baritone back and sides).

That leaves only the fretboard to select. Do I want to go all-Tasmanian? In that case, a bit of she-oak would do nicely. My old Cole Clark 12-string had a River She-oak (Casuarina cunninghamiana) fretboard. I liked it. Picture below. Drooping She-oak, Allocasuarina verticillata, which grows in Tasmania - River is from NSW) - is similar.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/210324_202258_5D4.jpg

On the other hand, I have a strong connection to two readily available fretboard timber trees species from the outback: Mulga (Acacia aneura) and Gidgee (Acacia cambagei). Paul has examples of each in stock. They are darker and a bit harder, and Mulga in particular is a recognised fretboard timber. (Maton use it for their excellent Australian model, which also features Blackwood and Bunya.) Gidgee is the darker of the two and I'm leaning that way.

FOR TREE AND TONEWOOD GEEKS ONLY

Huon Pine: https://www.huonpine.com/
King Billy Pine: https://www.tasmanianspecialtimbers.com.au/king-billy-pine/
Celery-top Pine: http://livingwoodtasmania.org.au/celery-top-pine/
Mulga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_aneura
Gidgee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_cambagei

earwighoney · July 2022

@Tannin

Do you have a timeframe for how long you will have to wait for your Paul Mineur guitar? His work looks very tidy indeed. I've commissioned 3 guitars before, and the wait is always long, but at the same time, it's never long enough to find the funds to hand over!

When it comes to 'rare' exclusive woods sourced from jungles that no longer exist, after buying a few nice guitars with such a wood used for the back and sides, I've come to appreciate they do make a difference but not as much as I used to believe. There are many other timbers that are also excellent for making guitars. I've read Black Locust and Osage Orange are supposed to be great at creating the rosewood sound, but are also readily available. Black Locust in latter in the UK (and Europe) are everywhere, there's a massive one in front of a block of flats on my road that could probably be cut into a number of guitar sets.

My 'nice' acoustic guitar is a spruce/rosewood 14 fret 00, which isn't a really bassy guitar, but with the rosewood back and sides, it's as bassy as I would like. I've got a Eastman Red Spruce/Mahagony 12 fret 00, which to surprise packs more of a punch than I expect. It's a body size which my ears find to be quite balanced.

A shame to read of your left arm struggles. Have you tried a 12 fret guitar for this? I noticed if I am playing something with a capo at the second fret, my left arm is in a more comfortable position than if it was on a 14 fret guitar. Some good observations about the factors which cause pain though. I've not been able to use heavier strings for many years due to right hand picking pains, 12-52 is as much as I can muster and even then that would downtuned to my open tuning of choice (Open D).

Both those acacias seem like they'd make fantastic fretboards, seem to be the in the same mass as African Blackwood and very hard wearing I imagine.

Kalimna · July 2022

A fascinating thread, thank you. I have a Brook guitar, of Devon, a 12-string jumbo with a Huon Pine top - incredible figuring and strangely, a smell! Partnered with a cocobolo B&S, it sings

I realise that your choices are fairly locked in now, but have you considered minnerichi as a fingerboard? I have the most stunning piece of rpippled (!) minnerichi to use on a future build - i might also have king billy and she-oak sets too..... Mmmm. You have got me thinking!
Looking forward to further updates.

Adam

Roland · July 2022

Tannin said:

That leaves only the fretboard to select. Do I want to go all-Tasmanian?

It would be a shame not to.

Tannin · July 2022

Perhaps you are right, @Roland Thinking about it, every other part is Tasmanian, so why not complete the set? Anyway, I spoke to Paul about it today and we are going with Tiger Myrtle, the same timber Paul used for the back and sides of my concert-size guitar, described and pictured here https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/211843/ngd-yes-again It's quite hard and very dense (both desirable qualities in a fretboard), is a medoum-darkish colour (shows the dirt less) and ought to work pretty well.

Meanwhile, Paul slipped over and had a look at that timber I linked to. Sadly, while it looks magnificent, it has a knothole and associated cracks located such that it won't do for such a large jumbo. The same vendor had two more suitable ones, neither as visually appealing, but both structurally superior. So I left it to Paul to decide if it was better to buy one of those two, or wait and hope something else comes along. Given that one of the two we considered has just gone "SOLD" on the vendor's website, I guess Paul has bought it.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/5.jpg

The knots need to be omitted. Ignore the chalked dreadnought outline, my guitar is bigger. I'm not sure if Paul plans to flip the bookmatch so that the pale parts are in the centre, or invert it with the neck at this end, or both. I trust his eye - I know his work and he will have a scheme in mind which will delight me when I see it. (Never hire a dog and bark yourself!)

Tannin · July 2022

Kalimna said:

A fascinating thread, thank you. I have a Brook guitar, of Devon, a 12-string jumbo with a Huon Pine top - incredible figuring and strangely, a smell! Partnered with a cocobolo B&S, it sings
I realise that your choices are fairly locked in now, but have you considered minnerichi as a fingerboard? I have the most stunning piece of rpippled (!) minnerichi to use on a future build - i might also have king billy and she-oak sets too..... Mmmm. You have got me thinking!
Looking forward to further updates.

Cheers @Kalimna One of these days I'm going to order a UK-made guitar. (If I live long enough and don't run out of money first, I also want one from a few other places to "complete my set" so to speak. Also on my radar, Japan and continental Europe.) I'll very likely be ordering blind - we hardly ever see UK-made guitars in Oz, the only one I have ever played was an electric, a Burns Flyte many years ago. Anyway, I read all the acoustic posts here on the Fretboard religiously with that "blindfold purchase" in the back of my mind. It will be few years yet, but at present Brook is on the top of my list. Everything I hear about them is good. (BTW, I'd be looking for something as nearly as possible in all-local timbers. Oak or walnut, maybe.)

Huon Pine is known for its smell! For a few dollars you can buy a few grams of Huon Pine shavings which you can put in yor room to make it small nice. It works too, though the scent gradually fades. But yes: when people who know timber meet my Huon Pine Angel then sniff the soundhole.

It's an interesting timber for a guitar top, not as loud as (say) spruce but with a lovely tone. The crispness of 0cocobolo would match it well, I reckon.

BTW, it a difficult timber to glue because of the natural oils in it. Paul says that you have to take special care to get a bridge to stay put - but the chaps at Brook would know that.

You've mentioned minirichie before. You may have missed my reply in an earlier thread so I'll copy a precis in below.

(Just before I do that, oddly enough, Paul was showing me a bit of it in his workshop earlier this week. Too short to make a fretboard from, really just for curiosity. Lovely deep red colour, and very, very heavy!

Tannin · July 2022

"Minnerichi" could be any of several eucalypts and acacias but I'm guessing it will be Red Mulga (Acacia cyperophylla). If so, it's a stunningly beautiful thing.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/110921_131457_.jpg

Here is a detail from one growing in an inland river bed near the corner country (the area where Queensland, New South Wales, and South Australia meet, 1000 kilometres from the coast). (Click to enlarge.)

That's deep outback and hungry country - the creek would flow for a day or two once or twice a year on average. The Red Mulgas are the two in the middle distance centre, and probably the near-dead one at right; on the left you can see a small Coolibah (Eucalyptus coolabah) - yes, the one in the song, though the one the Jolly Swagman sat under would have been much bigger.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/110921_130658_va.jpg

And just because I can't resist, one more close up of that amazing bark:

earwighoney · July 2022

Huon Pine sounds very interesting, I think it could be used for back and sides as well. Seems to be quite similar to Spanish Cypress in density and odour.

An all English guitar is possible, but there aren't many options for an English soundboard. English walnut would probably be the easiest one to source, but I have seen a few other elusive suitable ones. Port Orford Cedar, Western Red Cedar and maybe even Redwood!

Tannin · July 2022

Huon Pine is an interesting one, @earwighoney It is a very rare timber and expensive, so it will never be used for more hand handful of instruments. It was logged to buggery in the early rape-and-pillage days, much of it criminally wasted on idiotic things like fence posts, log shacks, and the like, but also used for semi-sensible things like shipbuilding. (It doesn't rot, so you can imagine how useful that can be.)

The bulk of it was logged out a hundred years ago. Today, it is illegal to cut down a living tree, and you need a permit even for dead timber. The only sources of it are stray logs which occasionally float down rivers (finders keepers!), recycling of existing structures built years ago, and most of all, hoarded stockpiles from 50 years ago or more. It grows so slowly that it will probably never be harvested again, certainly not in our lifetimes.

As a tonewood, it is controversial. Some regard it as over-rated. Others regard it as the Holy Grail. I don't agree with either viewpoint. I've only ever played two Huon Pine guitars.

One is my own Cole Clark Angel 3 (Huon Pine top, Silky Maple back, sides, and neck). It is a very quiet guitar and very treble-heavy. Sometimes I say it is "an acoustic Telecaster on the bridge pickup". And yet, although it strums treble-heavy, it has excellent definition on all notes, including the bass ones, and a lovely balanced tone, light but rich and full. I always struggle to put things like this into words, but think of a clarinet - actually a very trebly instrument but it has those rich, smooth lower tones and we don't realise just how much of a clarinet's tone is treble. I was guitar shopping in 2020 and it was out of the question, more than double my budget. I played it, just out of curiosity ... and put it on my short list. One by one I crossed off a nice second-hand Guild, a Maton TE, a Martin D-28, a Taylor, and eventually another Maton TE which I really liked at half the price of the Cole Clark and bought the Huon Pine Angel anyway. I have never regretted it. Through the day I mostly play one of the others, but later in the evening when I just want to sit by the window and state out at the stars, playing quietly, it is my go-to every time.

The other was another Cole Clark Angel, but this time Huon Pine back and sides and a King Billy Pine top. Very different! It was an odd-looking guitar and I have to say I think it was a waste of good Huon Pine. Not because it was no good - it was a lovely thing to play - but because unless I miss my guess, 95% of the sound was the product of the King Billy top and they could have used something less precious than Huon Pine for the back and sides: Anyway, the shop was kind enough to let me play it and it was completely different, and totally unlike any other Cole Clark I have ever played, more like a Martin 000 or a Lowden, or my luthier-made concert guitar - very responsive, almost too responsive for my taste.

I'd be interested to hear the views of @Kalimna on the sound he gets out of his Huon Pine 12-string.

Kalimna · July 2022

Tannin said:

Kalimna said:

A fascinating thread, thank you. I have a Brook guitar, of Devon, a 12-string jumbo with a Huon Pine top - incredible figuring and strangely, a smell! Partnered with a cocobolo B&S, it sings
I realise that your choices are fairly locked in now, but have you considered minnerichi as a fingerboard? I have the most stunning piece of rpippled (!) minnerichi to use on a future build - i might also have king billy and she-oak sets too..... Mmmm. You have got me thinking!
Looking forward to further updates.

Cheers @Kalimna One of these days I'm going to order a UK-made guitar. (If I live long enough and don't run out of money first, I also want one from a few other places to "complete my set" so to speak. Also on my radar, Japan and continental Europe.) I'll very likely be ordering blind - we hardly ever see UK-made guitars in Oz, the only one I have ever played was an electric, a Burns Flyte many years ago. Anyway, I read all the acoustic posts here on the Fretboard religiously with that "blindfold purchase" in the back of my mind. It will be few years yet, but at present Brook is on the top of my list. Everything I hear about them is good. (BTW, I'd be looking for something as nearly as possible in all-local timbers. Oak or walnut, maybe.)

Huon Pine is known for its smell! For a few dollars you can buy a few grams of Huon Pine shavings which you can put in yor room to make it small nice. It works too, though the scent gradually fades. But yes: when people who know timber meet my Huon Pine Angel then sniff the soundhole. It's an interesting timber for a guitar top, not as loud as (say) spruce but with a lovely tone. The crispness of 0cocobolo would match it well, I reckon.

BTW, it a difficult timber to glue because of the natural oils in it. Paul says that you have to take special care to get a bridge to stay put - but the chaps at Brook would know that.

You've mentioned minirichie before. You may have missed my reply in an earlier thread so I'll copy a precis in below.

(Just before I do that, oddly enough, Paul was showing me a bit of it in his workshop earlier this week. Too short to make a fretboard from, really just for curiosity. Lovely deep red colour, and very, very heavy!

Ahh, sorry about that - i tend to forget whst ive posted in the past, and unfortunately the replies that follow.
The 'minnerichi' board i have was from Tim Spittle (i think his name is) of Australian Tonewoods, and is a deep chocolatey brown with ripples throughout. A very 'plinky' tap to it too.

Tannin · July 2022

Re an English soundboard, I was going to ask about that. It sounds as though the options are pretty limited.

Timeframe for this one? Paul works very slowly. He does one or two a year, three at very most. (He also does a lot of other work, from repairs and rebuilds to sculptures and music boxes.) He has finished the body of the one in front of me in his queue, hasn't done the neck yet. So I guess he'll start mine in earnest later this year and finish early next year. That's fine. He works at his own pace and I have other guitars to play.

How much difference do rare and exotic woods really make? Well, I reckon not much. Paul is a softly-spoken, easy-going sort of chap and he hasn't really got it in him to be scathing, but if he did I suspect that he would be on this topic. As far as he is concerned, the timbers, so long as they are properly quarter sawn and more-or-less suitable, are not the point. Timbers are for looking at, you get sound from skill and craftsmanship. (He wouldn't say that; I'm putting words into his mouth.)

earwighoney · July 2022

@Tannin

Thanks for the info. Seems Huon Pine went the way of Cuban Mahogany of sorts, which also was largely all cut down around 100 years ago, but it grows it pretty quickly whilst Huon Pine doesn't.

Huon Pine seems quite heavy for a soundboard, it's weight at Wood Database is listed at 560kg/m cubed, whilst European Spruce is 405kg/m3. Huon Pine seems closer to Spanish Cypress which is 535kg/m3, and it could be used to make a flamenco guitar, but I couldn't really see the point considering how rare it is and there are other great woods that would cost a fraction and are sustainable that produce exceptional instruments nonetheless.

Tannin · March 2023

Cheers @earwighoney (8 months late!)

Yes, Huon Pine is a middle-density timber. Very roughly, we can divide tonewoods up into four groups:

* Top woods are light
* Back and sides woods are medium weight
* Fretboard woods are heavy
* All-rounder woods are light-medium.

Huon Pine is heavier than classic soundboard tonewoods (spruce, cedar etc.) but pretty much the lightest of the "all-rounder" tonewoods (things like mahogany and Blackwood and Koa).

(Once again, as seems to be my habit, I opened this thread to update it just now and discovered a three-parts-finished reply in it.)

Tannin · March 2023

We have progress!

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_rosette.jpg

King Billy Pine top, rosette is Huon Pine, Tiger Myrtle, Blackwood and ebony.

Now for the sides -

These are Blackheart Sassafras.

Am I starting to get excited? Yes. Is it far too early for that? Yes. When will it be finished? Not sure, I haven't spoken to Paul about that lately but at a guess around about spring (i.e., autumn in the UK). I've been on the waiting list since 2020, a bit longer will do no harm.

(But I'm still getting a bit excited.)

Tannin · March 2023

More progress! Inside the mould:

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_mould.jpg

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_mould2.jpg

The top complete with bracing. Top is King Billy Pine, falcate bracing is King Billy Pine and carbon fibre. The theory of falcate bracing is that it is lighter, stronger, and more evenly distributes the stresses. Whether that makes the result sound better is beyond my ken, but I'm happy to report that the concert-size guitar of Paul's that I own plays very nicely. Better than an otherwise-identical X-braced instrument? No idea.

King Billy Pine is very light and quite stiff along the grain but very flexible (I'd describe it as "floppy" across the grain. (All timbers are weaker across the grain than along it, but King Billy Pine more so than most.) It is a noted tonewood often said to have a rich, mellow sound similar to cedar, but it is mostly used for small instruments, mandolins in particular. How will it respond to employment in a very large jumbo? No idea.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_bracing.jpg

I'm trying to figure out what the bridge plate is made from! It looks a bit like Radiata Pine, which it certainly won't be. For durability reasons, bridge plates are normally something fairly hard (maple is a common choice), and I can't think of a likely-sounding hardish timber which looks like that. (I'll ask next time I see him.)

Soupman · March 2023

@Tannin there's not many can say they know their guitar inside out. My only knowledge comes via a small mirror when fitting a jack socket!
Judging by the first picture I reckon it'll be heavy with sides that thick......

Looks great - you must be drooling in anticipation

Tannin · March 2023

Yes @Soupman - well, not drooling yet, trying to stay calm for awhile longer. Paul works at his own pace so he'll probably have it finished and ready to pick up around about the time I am in in England ordering a Brook

(This year is going to win a prize as my all-time most expensive. Two new guitars, a trip to Europe, and I just had a tooth implant which should set my dentist up for a comfortable retirement. I cannot possibly go on spending at this rate. But buggerit, no-one lives forever.)

Mellish · March 2023

@Tannin ; I still say try a Martin OM-28 Re-imagined when you can,or preferably a couple or more to compare.

I was lucky. They only had one in-store but great tone, low action...
Less volume than a dread? Well maybe, just a bit, but comfort wise much better than a dread playing seated, this being the only way I play.

Tannin · March 2023

I've played OM-28s, @Mellish. Lovely guitars. Back in 2020 I spent a long time cross-playing every interesting guitar in town. (Hobart has four good music shops - 2 new, 2 used and vintage - plus an odd one that occasionally has something nice like an old Gibson, so a pretty fair selection.) In the end, I narrowed it down to three - as it happened all three in the same shop - and I spent ages deciding which of the three I liked best. The Martin OM-28 and the Maton Messiah were about the same price, the third one (another Maton) was $1000 cheaper, but I had decided to ignore price and just buy the one I liked best.

I could have taken any one of the three home and been happy. With the Martin, I liked the slightly wider neck (half a millimetre, but enough to notice) and the extra warmth. ("Warmth" seems an insufficient word to describe that rich, subtle tone.) With the Messiah, I liked the balance, the cleaner bass, and the open, slightly glassy top end. Oh and the Maton was better finished, but I didn't really care so much about that.

Two lovely guitars. I bought the Messiah, but I could easily have gone the other way.

In retrospect, I think I got it right. I play with my fingers, flesh or nail or both at once with three fingers, just the callus on my thumb for the bass notes. The famous Martin bass sound is great but it is dull and thuddy and flirts with being downright muddy. For most players, it's just a whisker this side of those things.With my thumb technique, I have to work to avoid flub and thud. (Not that I mind doing that. I'm bound to add a Martin to my little collection one of these days, probably an HD-28 but OM-28 and D-18 are certainly possibilities.)

As for volume, I don'rt care - except that at night, in order not to annoy Mrs Tannin, I never play the Guild or the Mineur (both very loud guitars) and go easy on the cedar dred and the Messiah (an 808 - same size and shape as a Martin OM only deeper, like a dred) 'cause they can be pretty loud too. Mostly I play the Cole Clark Angel at night. Or the baritone - it's quite loud but never shrill the way normal guitars can be.

Anyway, I know OM-28s and like them..

Tannin · March 2023

Progress!

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_body_top.jpg

Top: King Billy Pine

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_body_top2.jpg

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/B_body_back.jpg

Back and sides: Blackheart Sassafras

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