What came 1st - the (C) major scale or the piano keyboard ?

thing · May 2022

ToneControl said:

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

I've looked under every possible permutation on Google and can't believe I cant find any images. Trust me, it does exist, I've held a copy in my sweaty paws! Can't remember whether it was 16C or 17C. I think it was 16th so Tudor and printed so post 1480's for sure.

thing · May 2022

@Tone Control: see PM.

viz · May 2022

thing said:

ToneControl said:

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

I've looked under every possible permutation on Google and can't believe I cant find any images. Trust me, it does exist, I've held a copy in my sweaty paws! Can't remember whether it was 16C or 17C. I think it was 16th so Tudor and printed so post 1480's for sure.

Yes! Not uncommon in them days. In Elizabethan times. Normally with a melody and lute line, then the other 3 singers at right angles. John Dowland’s 1st songbook I think, for example, in 1597 or something.

viz · May 2022

Like this!

https://i.imgur.com/cbsgA8w.png

thing · May 2022

Ah where did you find that!!! Been looking for ages.

I've got some nice Dowland stuff transcribed for classical. Some of his stuff was a bit dirge like, weird ideas of upbeat music that the Tudors had but some of it is quite lively.

GuitarAndy2 · May 2022

Another good book that you might find interesting is Temperament by Stuart Isacoff, goes into a lot of the origins around different tuning types/styles and the reasoning/historical context behind them.

viz · May 2022

GuitarAndy2 said:

Another good book that you might find interesting is Temperament by Stuart Isacoff, goes into a lot of the origins around different tuning types/styles and the reasoning/historical context behind them.

Also that book called something like “true temperament and why it killed music and why you should care” or something has loads of good info about the development of Western scales and the tuning thereof.

Grangousier · May 2022

The other thing is that the fundamental mode (if you're generating a scale from the fifth harmonic), is the Lydian - building the scale by fifths would give you C-G-D-A-E-B-F#, This being the basis of George Russell's frankly inscrutable Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation.

KDS · May 2022

didn't Bach sort this issue out?

guitarjack66 · May 2022

KDS said:

didn't Bach sort this issue out?

Bach to the future?

digitalkettle · May 2022

guitarjack66 said:

KDS said:

didn't Bach sort this issue out?

Bach to the future?

Axe_meister · June 2022

Question is what came first? the C-Major scale or the A-Minor scale.
I'd say the A minor scale i.e. A to A without any sharps/flats.
Only when music started to become more major orientated did somebody decide
we should count from C to C

viz · June 2022

Axe_meister said:

Question is what came first? the C-Major scale or the A-Minor scale.
I'd say the A minor scale i.e. A to A without any sharps/flats.
Only when music started to become more major orientated did somebody decide
we should count from C to C

Lydian and its sister Dorian came first, along with Mixolydian and Phrygian. Then came the hypomodes, Ionian being hypolydian; Aeolian being hypodorian. (And then hypophrygian which was locrian. Hypomixolydian didn’t exist because it was just dorian again).

Basically major and minor arrived on the scene at the same time.

TheOtherDennis · September 2022

For a clear and entertaining explanation of how all of this comes together, I can recommend Howard Goodall (he of the Blackadder and QI theme tunes, amongst lots and lots else), who did a series and book called The Story of Music in which he touched on how this stuff came about.

I won't try to summarise it, because I'll get it as hideously wrong as the Pythagorean Comma, which is the big problem of natural harmonics and dynamics that we have solved uniquely using maths.

It's well worth reading, by the way. Howard isn't just an engaging and interesting presenter, he can write, too. (And he's a lovely bloke, by all accounts.)

Oh, and if anyone was wondering who invented the piano (ie specifically the piano, and not any old keyboard instrument, which have been around for hundreds of years before that) it was an Italian chap called Bartolemeo Cristoferi. And yes, I did get that nugget from Howard's books.

DuploLicks · September 2022

I did enjoy this video which has probably done the rounds here previously

I like and similarly terrified of having to not only tune the guitar but position the frets before playing!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjK4GVR1EcE

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What came 1st - the (C) major scale or the piano keyboard ?

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