What came 1st - the (C) major scale or the piano keyboard ?

sev112 · March 2022

A modern scale has 12 semitones - or on a piano 7 white keys and 5 black keys.

so the actual “physical musical” distance between an octave is 12/2 = 6 tones

so why did no-one in musical history split the octave up into 6 notes, each with 2 semi tones between them.
that would be C D E F# G# A# C
that would “seem” to be a “logical” approach

but instead our standard scale is major with 7 notes at the following interval steps :(TTstTTTst)
and if you play this on a piano starting from C , you only play the white notes.
which seems to be rather “convenient” and helpful.

So, which came first - the decision that scales would have 7 notes (rather than say 6), that the major sounding scale had those tone interval steps, or the invention of black and white keys on a piano ?

I find the invention of the piano keyboard to be an amazing piece of deduction but have no knowledge of who came up with the idea?

ArchtopDave · March 2022

To B or not to B, that is the question???

pintspiller · March 2022

Pythagoras came up with a lot of that stuff didn't he? Maybe there's one more for each day of the week or something arcane and witchy.

mrkb · March 2022

I wish they’d used 12 white keys - would make playing the piano much easier!!

Snags · March 2022

I suspect that the piano keyboard has 'evolved' along with Western musical traditions, in a kind of feedback loop. And once the piano became a fairly dominant instrument, away you go.

Certainly there are early keyboard-based instruments that don't follow a 12 note scale, or aren't equally tempered. And if I remember correctly music for earlier stringed instruments doesn't necessarily fall neatly within modern scales, although I'm sure it can be expressed within such, with modes and other things that are head-hurty.

viz · March 2022

The scale came first, then the piano keyboard, which is an ingenious model of it.

By the way, the answer to your deeper question about why isn’t it just 6 tones is truly amazing and requires a lot of explanation, which maybe we can get into if you’re really interested.

The other amazing model of our scale system is of course the circle of fifths. That and the piano model the same thing in slightly different ways.

it is very connected to pythagorean maths, but is all about fundamental and harmonic frequencies, rather than religious or paegan stuff. And actually the whole development and system is even more aligned to F lydan and G mixolydian than C major, which is why lydian and mixolydian are amongst the original greek modes but ionian isn’t, but that requires even more explanation.

Sporky · March 2022

mrkb said:

I wish they’d used 12 white keys - would make playing the piano much easier!!

It's actually a lot harder without the red keys.

sev112 · March 2022

viz said:

The scale came first, then the piano keyboard, which is an ingenious model of it.

By the way, the answer to your deeper question about why isn’t it just 6 tones is truly amazing and requires a lot of explanation, which maybe we can get into if you’re really interested.

The other amazing model of our scale system is of course the circle of fifths. That and the piano model the same thing in slightly different ways.

it is very connected to pythagorean maths, but is all about fundamental and harmonic frequencies, rather than religious or paegan stuff. And actually the whole development and system is even more aligned to F lydan and G mixolydian than C major, which is why lydian and mixolydian are amongst the original greek modes but ionian isn’t, but that requires even more explanation.

I’d be really interested @viz ;

GoFish · March 2022

pintspiller said:

Pythagoras came up with a lot of that stuff didn't he? Maybe there's one more for each day of the week or something arcane and witchy.

Pythagoras is credited with a lot of the basics, but Its part of the western tradition that just lumps knowledge to the oldest known possible originator. Not to say that he didn't walk past a blacksmiths and hear the notes or anything but it was a long long time ago and there's no evidence for any of it. Not even a sliver or a hint. He pre-dates classical greek civilisation itself.

The triangle stuff was known in the ancient world long before him ( though not to the Greeks obvs!). Seeing as lyres already existed in Greece, as did other stringed instruments though the near east , it's quite possible he "only" codified common knownledge or was just credited with it.I think scales as we think of them were a later thing, based on the resonance of string, so greek geometry, but not necessarily Pythagoras. He was well into Astrology, as was common, so would have been well pleased with making it fit into the 7 /12 distinction (see also Newton and the bloody rainbow)

TLDR: just a rant about epistemology. Sorry.

viz · March 2022

Look up “acoustic scale” first, which is built fromthe natural frequencies found in nature, that tells you how the notes arise, in order; the tonic, then the 5th, then the major 3rd, then the flat 7th, etc. basically from that the 12 notes get formed, which crucially involve the 5th (and by definition the 4th, which is the difference between an octave and a 5th); those are called “perfect” intervals. They have to be in the scale, because they’re the most fundamental harmonics, and are therefore the building blocks of harmony. They’re also in 19-note scales, 31-note scales, etc. BUT they’re not in 6-note scales.

Anyway, from that acoustic scale, you can start to build the modes.

GoFish · March 2022

@viz - I' love to hear more on this - it be absolutely fascinating!

viz · March 2022

GoFish said:
, it's quite possible he "only" codified common knownledge or was just credited with it.

Right. Yes, he studied it, he was a learned mathematician. He certainly didn’t start from scratch, and yep, these things existed in nature and culture before him.

merlin · March 2022

mrkb said:

I wish they’d used 12 white keys - would make playing the piano much easier!!

True but that fabulous Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder song would never have happened.

And the correct answer to the OP's question is...

"To get to the other side...."

viz · March 2022

Problem is, it’s such a massive subject, and i’ve got a new job so can’t really do it justice - we are talking about the evolution of western music here haha, but there’s masses on the intanets, wiki has loads of excellently written stuff. Happy to try and answer specific questions

Benm39 · March 2022

I love in depth explanations of this, fascinating stuff even though my theory is seriously rusty

tweedphan · March 2022

merlin said:

mrkb said:

I wish they’d used 12 white keys - would make playing the piano much easier!!

True but that fabulous Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder song would never have happened.

Every cloud…………..

GoFish · March 2022

tweedphan said:

merlin said:

mrkb said:

I wish they’d used 12 white keys - would make playing the piano much easier!!

True but that fabulous Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder song would never have happened.

Every cloud…………..

Are the black and white keys actually in "perfect harmony"?

sev112 · March 2022

viz said:

Problem is, it’s such a massive subject, and i’ve got a new job so can’t really do it justice - we are talking about the evolution of western music here haha, but there’s masses on the intanets, wiki has loads of excellently written stuff. Happy to try and answer specific questions

Hey @viz , hope the new job is /goes well

if you have one or two obvious web links I could start exploring from that would be really helpful

Tannin · March 2022

@sev112 Redit has an excellent set of articles covering these very questions. Let's see if I can find it ... hmmm ... not sure if this is what I'm looking for: https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index#wiki_history_of_music_theory_questions ;

... Yep. That looks like the stuff I remember. Poke around and you'll find answers to most of those questions. Redit can be a bit of a flea pit, but the music theory section can be very good.

sev112 · March 2022

Tannin said:

@sev112 Redit has an excellent set of articles covering these very questions. Let's see if I can find it ... hmmm ... not sure if this is what I'm looking for: https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index#wiki_history_of_music_theory_questions ;

... Yep. That looks like the stuff I remember. Poke around and you'll find answers to most of those questions. Redit can be a bit of a flea pit, but the music theory section can be very good.

Thnaks v much

viz · March 2022

That’s actually a really good resource!

personalnadir · March 2022

The keyboard layout is actually 200-300 years older than the piano. Glancing at the Wikipedia article it seems that it initially varied depending on the notes used in the music at the time and the instruments capabilities. Could see anything on how we wound up with a standard layout

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_keyboard

GoFish · March 2022

Tannin said:

@sev112 Redit has an excellent set of articles covering these very questions. Let's see if I can find it ... hmmm ... not sure if this is what I'm looking for: https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index#wiki_history_of_music_theory_questions ;

... Yep. That looks like the stuff I remember. Poke around and you'll find answers to most of those questions. Redit can be a bit of a flea pit, but the music theory section can be very good.

Bonza! Thank you

viz · March 2022

According to Early Keyboard Instruments, this is the earliest surviving music written for keyboard - 1320 - but it wasn’t the current configuration of keyboard. Keyboards existed before then, it’s just that the notated music from before then hasn’t survived. And no 15th century keyboard music has survived, oddly.

https://i.imgur.com/AslQaG3.jpg

In terms of instruments, the hydraulic organ was around as far back as 300BC, and the pneumatic organ was introduced (actually re-introduced apparently) to the West in 756AD. They also didn’t look the same as today. The Winchester organ in around 1000 had a diatonic scale with an extra Bb.

And according to English Keyboard Music, there is this key (

)section here; the extract at the top is from 1519. The 27 keys refered to are mainly white; there were some black keys inserted at the bottom, but these were 4ths or 3rds apart, not semitones. So the current system was still not around by 1519.

https://i.imgur.com/Q5cUHqW.jpg

It was well after that that the harpsichord and associated instruments came into existence, followed by the fortepiano, then the pianoforte.

thing · May 2022

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

ToneControl · May 2022

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

prowla · May 2022

Ah, the evocative name of the musical instrument "the piano" sounds so exotic:

piano = plane/flat, presumably because the keys are laid out flat

The full name is pianoforte, which is two verbs stuck together:

piano forte = soft + loud

Incidentally, there is also an Italian phrase "piano piano", which means calm down or take it easy.

Tannin · May 2022

"Piano piano" = "softly softly" = a 1960s TV show.

viz · May 2022

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon.

Teetonetal · May 2022

viz said:

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon.

A early example of passive aggressive behavior?

digitalkettle · May 2022

Teetonetal said:

viz said:

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon.

A early example of passive aggressive behavior?

Ppppppassive aggressive

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What came 1st - the (C) major scale or the piano keyboard ?

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