Martin prices - time for a rethink?

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

crunchman said:

@Tannin has raised some good points.

The caveat to that is that the Martin distributor in the UK is dreadful, and put enormous markups on their guitars. I haven't checked recently, but there was a time when some £2200 Martins in the UK were available at multiple retailers (not just Thomann) on the continent at around £1900.

When I was looking at buying a classical guitar made by Martin around 7 months ago, it was cheaper by a big enough margin to make it worth the effort to import the model from the US and pay import taxes on it, than it was to buy in the UK, and if you don't mind flying cattle class it was cheaper to fly to the US - including air fares, hotel, food and a reasonable daily budget, to buy it, than it was to buy the same model in the UK from a shop under 200 miles from me round trip. I honestly think they are pricing themselves out of the market already, if it wasn't for Martin's UK prices I wouldn't currently be speaking to a few small builders.

Tannin · March 2022

Cheers lads. @crunchman I don't think we can simply say that the UK Martin distributor is no good, or putting too much mark-up on, because we see very similar UK pricing patterns with Gibson, Guild, Taylor and Maton, and much the same pattern with Australian pricing of all the US makes, and the same again with US pricing of Australian makes. I think it's just a case of the accountants who run all modern companies charging whatever the market will bear.

@CavemanGrogg ; I know of people in the States who pay outrageous Reverb prices to buy Matons and Cole Clarks in Australia and ship them over - they pay maybe 10% extra over the standard Australian price, and pay freight, and pay state taxes and duties and insurance, and still wind up hundreds of dollars better off than they would be buying at US prices. And I know Australians who buy Gibsons in the USA and ship them here because the Gibson Australia are even more dedicated to outrageous markups than that the UK Martin mob. (And I've heard one or two tales of very shonky service too.)

One more thing. You have to wonder whether a lot of the benefit of marking up your overseas sales to the max and keeping home-market prices low is that you can take most of your profit wherever is most convenient to you. For example, Gibtin Music could manufacture in Chicago, sell to Gibtin Distribution Inc (Ireland), and have Gibtin (UK) buy from Ireland with the profit being taken in whichever jurisdiction has the lowest corporate tax rate.

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

Tannin said:

@CavemanGrogg ;; I know of people in the States who pay outrageous Reverb prices to buy Matons and Cole Clarks in Australia and ship them over - they pay maybe 10% extra over the standard Australian price, and pay freight, and pay state taxes and duties and insurance, and still wind up hundreds of dollars better off than they would be buying at US prices. And I know Australians who buy Gibsons in the USA and ship them here because the Gibson Australia are even more dedicated to outrageous markups than that the UK Martin mob. (And I've heard one or two tales of very shonky service too.)

I've always thought Australia to be very expensive for instruments, not just the US, UK, or premium brand instruments, but for budget instruments as well. I was shocked with the prices of brands like Sqiure, Stagg, Cort electric guitars I saw in Australia, forget the ''good'' stuff, the prices of the stuff I normally walk past and don't give a second thought to nevermind a first thought where shocking me.

Tannin said:

One more thing. You have to wonder whether a lot of the benefit of marking up your overseas sales to the max and keeping home-market prices low is that you can take most of your profit wherever is most convenient to you. For example, Gibtin Music could manufacture in Chicago, sell to Gibtin Distribution Inc (Ireland), and have Gibtin (UK) buy from Ireland with the profit being taken in whichever jurisdiction has the lowest corporate tax rate.

I've wondered about that too often, especially when you start adding ''Asian'' guitars - guitars made by an Asian brand or for the Asian market, to that list. But then it's not unusual for products to be more expensive in their native country than they are overseas, especially with food. Whisky is more expensive in Scotland than in any bottle shop in Australia, and Bundy is quite a bit cheaper here than it is in Australia. Then you have to wonder is their internal market large enough to support the company and it's competitors. It wouldn't surprise me if brands like Martin rotate prices, for so many years the people in ''X'' market are being squeezed to lower their prices in markets ''Y'' and ''Z'', when their sales drop to a level deemed to be too low in market ''X'', they see a drop in prices, but market ''Y'' gets squeezed to make up for the money they where making in market ''X'' before they lowered their prices in that market. I've noticed this pricing rotation happen in the past with Gibson, but that was during turbulant times for the company when there was a serious risk of them going bankrupt, it was a great time to be in the market for Gibsons in the UK, you could easily buy them for between 30% to 60% lower than they could be purchased in America at the same time for, American where buying and importing them from UK dealers.

Tannin · March 2022

I can't comment on electrics CMG, but good quality acoustics in Oz are about the same as the UK for the US made ones, much cheaper for Australian-made, and the same as everywhere for Japanese ones. I don't know about Chinese and Indonesian-made instruments at the lower end of the market.

crunchman · March 2022

Tannin said:

Cheers lads. @crunchman I don't think we can simply say that the UK Martin distributor is no good, or putting too much mark-up on, because we see very similar UK pricing patterns with Gibson, Guild, Taylor and Maton, and much the same pattern with Australian pricing of all the US makes, and the same again with US pricing of Australian makes. I think it's just a case of the accountants who run all modern companies charging whatever the market will bear.

I haven't checked recently, but that definitely hasn't been true in the past. If I looked at Fender and Gibson, by the time I added in duty etc, their prices were reasonably in line with their US prices. With Martin, and PRS before they changed distribution, there was always an extra 10 or 15% on top.

Even with that example I gave of the guitars that were cheaper on the continent (£1900ish) than here (£2200ish), that wasn't true of other brands. A Fender Strat on Thomann was a very similar price to a Fender Strat at GAK. With Martins that just wasn't the case. I haven't looked in recent times, as I'm reasonably happy with the guitars I have, so I don't know if it has changed, but historically, the UK Martin distributor has put a bigger mark up on than the distributor who covers Germany. Martin were actually losing out there. They were probably selling at the same price to both, so it's the distributor who was making the extra profit. However, the higher prices would have cost them sales, so Martin were selling less guitars.

PAL · March 2022

We buy instruments and guitars and go by what's on the headstock ! but there are many other guitar builders who make really good acoustic guitars it's a case of being open minded and trying out guitars and finding one that gives you the sound you are looking for.

Jez6345789 · March 2022

@Tannin ; some sterling work crunching the numbers.

I think one thing not really demonstrated is it is not just a straight-up charge or tax in foreign markets.

As far as I am aware Martin still uses a distributor in the UK and probably in Australia as a distributor of non-guitar products just about every line has been dramatically impacted by shipping component costs etc. Mahogany and Rosewood ebony does not grow local to Pennsylvania so a lot of their core woods will have had serious cost increases. Their UK distributor will be looking to make a living paying people to unload containers check delivery pay reps etc.

Also, the cost of doing business is high in the UK Rates power property etc.

In the US Martin are their own distributor supplying dealers direct and handling warranty in-house.

In fairness, I also do business in and around Nazareth and a lot of the guys I work with have family and friends who are working at Martin many are multi-generational employees and Martin is spoken about as a good employer health care etc, that many US companies run roughshod over. That in this day and age of people giving half a bowl of rice per day in some harsh factory conditions in the latest remote offshore location is to be commended. Especially as those companies quickly move on when the costs start to rise.

There is obviously a certain amount of brand tax and that is normal but it's not the big figure people think as Martin has plenty of competition in the acoustic guitar market not least of all Taylor.

On the distribution side, I think it was quite telling a few years ago when PRS bought out his distributor and worked with him to set up their European distribution hub he commented for the first time in years we might actually make some money in UK and Europe.

I as much as the next man likes a good bargain and there are so many great options in the guitar world these days with good guitars to fit everyone's budget unfortunately products like Martin and other US brands can only go so far to reduce costs. They can't just pickup the brand and start making it in Asia.

Mellish · March 2022

Here in the UK the Martin distributor is Westside, up north. No idea who in Oz

DavidR · March 2022

Interesting to get the perspective of Jez6345789 from Nazareth in the US, home of Martin, who argues that, from there, Martin's pricing regime seems more reasonable. And justified by trading conditions, material costs, good employee conditions etc.

I think his/her example of employees in other jurisdictions working for 'half a bowl of rice a day' is exaggerated - or perhaps tongue in cheek - in which case I agree in principle.

There is also the point of ethical resourcing of wood. This might not be a priority outside of US, UK, Europe and has cost implications.

So that's all counterargument to OP (me!).

But my original point, that Martin's are getting a tad costly in the UK remains valid. They've never been cheap. But they're moving towards unaffordable for the enthusiastic player with a bit of hard-earned cash to splash.

What can be done about that? Perhaps nothing. Circumstances change.

I wish Martin well. They make great guitars.

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

DavidR said:

What can be done about that? Perhaps nothing. Circumstances change.

I wish Martin well. They make great guitars.

Parallel import, you would be surprised just how much you can save, the models I was looking at, I could import directly from the US, pay import taxes on, and it still worked out a sizable % cheaper than buying in the UK and you can import them from countries that have free trade or at least a better import tax rate, there was that big a difference that even flying to the states for no other reason than to buy one to bring back is cheaper than buying one in the UK.

crunchman · March 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

DavidR said:

What can be done about that? Perhaps nothing. Circumstances change.

I wish Martin well. They make great guitars.

Parallel import, you would be surprised just how much you can save, the models I was looking at, I could import directly from the US, pay import taxes on, and it still worked out a sizable % cheaper than buying in the UK and you can import them from countries that have free trade or at least a better import tax rate, there was that big a difference that even flying to the states for no other reason than to buy one to bring back is cheaper than buying one in the UK.

This is because of Westside. If you look at a US Fender, by the time you pay all the taxes etc, you can't legally import it and save any real money. The same is true for most of the other big US brands. Mesa/Boogie used to be distributed by Westside in the UK, and their prices were eye-watering. I don't know whether they have got better now they seem to have ditched Westside.

Martin should do what the other big US manufacturers do and set up their own distribution here. They could cut their prices by 10%, sell more guitars, yet still make more profit per guitar.

Ricjo · March 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

DavidR said:

What can be done about that? Perhaps nothing. Circumstances change.

I wish Martin well. They make great guitars.

Parallel import, you would be surprised just how much you can save, the models I was looking at, I could import directly from the US, pay import taxes on, and it still worked out a sizable % cheaper than buying in the UK and you can import them from countries that have free trade or at least a better import tax rate, there was that big a difference that even flying to the states for no other reason than to buy one to bring back is cheaper than buying one in the UK.

What are the countries with the best import tax rates into the UK? Have been eyeing US and Japan based Martins and am typically adding 30% on top of guitar price + shipping. I assume that’s accurate enough. However, I don’t seem to find a price difference greater than around £200 than if bought in the UK. Which is not worth the hassle, I don’t think.

crunchman · March 2022

I would want to try a Martin first. It's hard to find a bad one, but some do sound better than others. I wouldn't be bringing one in from abroad. I wouldn't even buy one online here, where I have the 14 day return option.

They are over priced here though. I wouldn't buy one now. Depending on budget I'd get an Atkin or a Furch.

Tannin · March 2022

Ricjo said:

What are the countries with the best import tax rates into the UK? Have been eyeing US and Japan based Martins and am typically adding 30% on top of guitar price + shipping. I assume that’s accurate enough. However, I don’t seem to find a price difference greater than around £200 than if bought in the UK. Which is not worth the hassle, I don’t think.

Bear it in mind that we are talking about import tax" as a euphemism for "excessive markup by distributors". The actual tax component is very small.

In the UK, I think it is 2%. (Used to be 3.2% pre-Brexit, but of course zero for EU-manufactured goods.) In Australia it can be 5% (imports from the few countries we don't have a free trade agreement with) but is usually zero. In the USA it is either zero (goods made in Canada, Mexico, Australia, and some other places I'm not up to speed on) or 8.7% (everywhere else).

Countries from which the UK excessive markup (what I called "import tax") is lowest would very likely be Japan and anywhere in Europe. (I didn't check the prices of made-in-Japan guitars this time, but last time they were practically identical in the US, the UK, and Australia so long as you allow for local taxes such as the 20% UK VAT, the 10% Australian GST, or the variable state sales tax in the USA.

malcolmkindness · March 2022

crunchman said:

I would want to try a Martin first. It's hard to find a bad one, but some do sound better than others. I wouldn't be bringing one in from abroad. I wouldn't even buy one online here, where I have the 14 day return option.

They are over priced here though. I wouldn't buy one now. Depending on budget I'd get an Atkin or a Furch.

I think you would be right to choose an Atkin or a Furch unless you were looking for a very specific Martin model. Also, I can't understand buying an expensive instrument without playing it first, I wish we could get back to the old fashioned idea of a shop!

jellyroll · March 2022

Have you seen Atkin prices recently?

Ricjo · March 2022

Tannin said:

Ricjo said:

What are the countries with the best import tax rates into the UK? Have been eyeing US and Japan based Martins and am typically adding 30% on top of guitar price + shipping. I assume that’s accurate enough. However, I don’t seem to find a price difference greater than around £200 than if bought in the UK. Which is not worth the hassle, I don’t think.

Bear it in mind that we are talking about import tax" as a euphemism for "excessive markup by distributors". The actual tax component is very small.

In the UK, I think it is 2%. (Used to be 3.2% pre-Brexit, but of course zero for EU-manufactured goods.) In Australia it can be 5% (imports from the few countries we don't have a free trade agreement with) but is usually zero. In the USA it is either zero (goods made in Canada, Mexico, Australia, and some other places I'm not up to speed on) or 8.7% (everywhere else).

Countries from which the UK excessive markup (what I called "import tax") is lowest would very likely be Japan and anywhere in Europe. (I didn't check the prices of made-in-Japan guitars this time, but last time they were practically identical in the US, the UK, and Australia so long as you allow for local taxes such as the 20% UK VAT, the 10% Australian GST, or the variable state sales tax in the USA.

Thanks for the info.

I have an Atkin and know how great they are. But am after a specific Martin. In any case, whilst I do believe you get more value for money with an Atkin, they’re not cheap either. Even the second hand market, where you could get great deals until recently, prices are only going up. But it’s obviously happening across the board.

crunchman · March 2022

jellyroll said:

Have you seen Atkin prices recently?

The Essential D is only about £200 more than a D18. I know which one I'd rather have.

jellyroll · March 2022

crunchman said:

jellyroll said:

Have you seen Atkin prices recently?

The Essential D is only about £200 more than a D18. I know which one I'd rather have.

Sounds like you prefer Atkins.

I think I misread your earlier post - I thought you were suggesting Atkin was a cheaper alternative to a Martin, which as you say it generally isn’t (or not by much).

But it sounds like you’re actually saying that at that price point you just prefer Atkins….which I totally get. They’re great guitars. I’ve owned and played quite a few.

crunchman · March 2022

jellyroll said:

crunchman said:

jellyroll said:

Have you seen Atkin prices recently?

The Essential D is only about £200 more than a D18. I know which one I'd rather have.

Sounds like you prefer Atkins.

I think I misread your earlier post - I thought you were suggesting Atkin was a cheaper alternative to a Martin, which as you say it generally isn’t (or not by much).

But it sounds like you’re actually saying that at that price point you just prefer Atkins….which I totally get. They’re great guitars. I’ve owned and played quite a few.

If budget wasn't an issue I'd get the Atkin. Otherwise I'd look at something like a Furch.

I would want a 1 11/16 nut width which rules out most of Martin's current range.

Mellish · March 2022

@crunchman ; - I get you over 1 11/16 as it's my preferred nut width too. Saying that, I have a 2019 Martin HD-28 which takes me into 1 3/4 territory. I get by (it's a great guitar) but I'd be that bit happier with 1 11/16 and a low profile neck

thomasross20 · April 2023

As noted in another thread, I tried a truly amazing Martin custom shop today. I mean... it was mind-blowingly good. Slightly shorter scale, deep bass, adirondack top... haven't been as impressed with a guitar since my Larrivee's (as silly as that may sound to some).

Sweet Lord - £5500... that's the same cost as Collings etc (and only $3300 in USA)

My luthier does a lot of neck rests on Martins, bindings too. I read a guy on a Martin forum saying that neck resets are to be expected. Err what!? Tell you what, though - I am lusting after that guitar and I know I shouldn't.

Th4fonz · April 2023

How much would the difference be for a trip to USA and pick up a used old Martin vs a new one here. Prob evens itself out I bet.

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Martin prices - time for a rethink?

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