Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

maltingsaudio · August 2014

IMHO it sounds like a gain structure thing added to lack of EQ on the desk. So from the beginning plug acoustic into the desk with fader down and controls on the guitar set flat ie no added Bass or Mid or Highs and volume up to about 3/4's strum it adjust the input gain on the channel so that reaches about 0db on heavy strumming. If no way of telling this then strum it heavily until the peak light on the channel comes on then back it off until it just goes out. Now bring the fader up and listen to the guitar adjust the channel EQ to make it sound nice. Do bare in mind adding any EQ anywhere in the system adds gain therefor increasing the chances of feedback cutting EQ reduces gain.it is all a balance. Also remember t doesn't matter what the EQ on the desk looks like as long as it sounds right and is feedback free. It is also good to remember that the pick up on an acoustic works the same way as that of an electric in that they display different characteristics depending on the volume control so very often volume on 10 is not the best for a good clean acoustic tone.

( I would also add the Taylor expression system is great when it works unfortunately this is all too often not the case)

Si_ · August 2014

Is it worth investing in a sound hole plug thing (the plastic caps that cover the sound hole)

PinstripePhil · August 2014

I had the same issue with my Taylor and its Expression System. But I'm also an acoustic novice. Going direct to pa with anything always kills me.

Check with the desk graphic eq both on and off (if there is one and make sure ot looks like a mild smile). And also the effects that are running, again both on and off. Sometimes you can fall victim to a singer that has fiddled with the pa to compensate for the fact they can't actually sing.

Also, ask the band to turn down (a lot!). It is a rehearsal and if the speakers are pointing at your guitar you can only go so loud. If they refuse, at least you will know up front there is no point to all the usual lenghthy 'will we get signed' phone calls with the drummer, etc...lol.

PinstripePhil · August 2014

Sorry, I also meant to say, if they do not refuse, get there early and find your max volume in the room. They get then to adjust their volume to you. That singer will thank you.

maltingsaudio · August 2014

PinstripePhil said:

Check with the desk graphic eq both on and off (if there is one and make sure ot looks like a mild smile).

I agree with most of what you said @PinstripePhil but please this bit about the graphic is really crap advice sorry. Yes check with and without it but suggesting " a mild smile" sorry but words fail me. A graphic boosts and cuts frequencies, you cannot guess these you have to hear the results in the space you are working. You also have to look at what the frequencies your particular graphic is boosting and cutting, so making sure it has a mild smile without any reference to which frequencies are happy and which are sad is just a recipe for disaster.

I apologise if this sounds harsh.

mellowsun · August 2014

One of the good things about the Trace Elliot TAP-1 is that it has a notch filter, very useful for getting rid of feedback. I'm sure other decent acoustic guitar DI boxes have this too.

Going straight into the PA is probably asking for trouble, and the Taylor expression system seems to be known for being temperamental.

John_P · August 2014

I like the taylor exp system - tonight I'm hosting an open mic and playing - I'll plug the taylor in (oldish studiomaster powered mixer, pair of ev cabs and a pair of old peavey active wedges) tonight and it'll be fine... just set the gain, perhaps tweak the eq slightly and there will be plenty of volume and a decent sound. On sunday I'm playing at a festival - it'll be a huge PA so I'll just plug in one of my DI boxes and again it'll be fine.

If the gain is set correctly and the speakers are in a reasonable position it should be pretty much plug and play - the OP needs to check those and if it sounds poor then it's the cable or a fault in the pickup. Shouldn't take more than a few mins to work out which...

Danny1969 · August 2014

Wow

There's some really bad advice in this thread

I'm only posting this to maybe prevent Si buying something he doesn't need so @Si ignore it if you want to

The Taylor system is fine, it works great. As I said before we use it with insane foldback and don't have any problems. If you do have problems then chances are the gain staging is wrong, if there is too little gain from the output and you try to correct this with excessive mixer gain you will get problems, if there is too much output you will overdrive the desks channel strip and get problems.

Even if you get a DI box you still have to get the gain staging right so you may as well do it with what you have already

Advice like your better off with an acoustic sim cos you can't rehearse with an acoustic or you need top set the graphic into a smile is not really helpful.

ICBM · August 2014

Danny1969 said:
Advice like your better off with an acoustic sim cos you can't rehearse with an acoustic… is not really helpful.

I didn't say that. I said that it would be better to buy an acoustic sim than a piezo-loaded electric guitar. (Because they're far less expensive and don't really sound any worse, especially if you're just rehearsing.)

I would also like to help Si not buy anything expensive he doesn't need! I agree with you that a DI box may be a useful thing to have but is unlikely to fix this problem on its own - the problem is almost certainly as you say, incorrectly set gain levels at some point of the chain. It may also be that given the (lack of) quality of the PA and the size/layout of the room, it may be difficult to fix this.

streethawk · August 2014

@Danny1969

Or it could be a malfunctioning component. I think the advice in this thread has been balanced.

Si_ · August 2014

Unfortunately tomorrows practice was cancelled due to a death in the family, but I might book the room myself for an hour at the weekend and spend some time on my own finding the best solution. I can borrow a DI box from a mate just for testing purposes.

PinstripePhil · August 2014

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley_face_curve

Hey guys, I'm not seeking to stand my ground regarding a smile curve technique on a pa graphic eq. However, when a new band starts to rehearse we all know what it's like.
IMH view, it can actually be helpful to try this technique à la the well known Isle of Wight concert mix approach (as set out in the link).
The real solution as I suggested before is everyone turns down.
I am new to this website and forum. I now know how people treat you if they have a small disagreement with something you write.
Not for me.

maltingsaudio · August 2014

@PinstripePhil to begin with don't get upset about how your treated here if we didn't like you we'd ignore you!

The linked to article if you read it begins with " This page has some issues" which should give you some clues. You mention the well known Isle of Wight technique, I regret I've never heard of it but the article does go on to say this was applied to the recordings, with no mention of it being used in the live performance, and then only to get a hang on how the recordings should sound I'm guessing it is a personal thing of the engineer quoted.

The article then goes onto mention it being used as a preset in many sound playback systems car audio disco and on bass guitars, but also states that "Though the graphic equalizer was intended to tailor a system's response to match existing venue and performance conditions, the smiley face curve is often applied before the user has heard the system's frequency response." and there is the problem with using the curve before you've listened to the system flat in a room.

Now getting back to the original problem of the OP, he has feedback from his guitar, at this point we don't know at what frequency his feedback is occurring, if it is bass feedback then putting a smiley in to begin with will only cause even more problems like wise if it is a high frequency feedback. If the feedback is in the mid frequency it may solve the problem but as we don't know where the bottom of the smiley will be because that frequency hasn't been stated we can't say. We also don't know over what frequencies the particular graphic is working,so if lets say you are using a system with no subs and you start your smiley at the extreme left hand fader of a 32 band graphic the first 3 sliders will make no signficant change to the sound because the system can't reproduce them and like wise the last three faders . Can you see what I'm trying to get at here?

This isn't meant in any other way than education and thought provocation.

ICBM · August 2014

The smiley-face EQ is *totally* wrong, sorry. You're boosting the exact frequencies which are most likely to cause feedback - the boomy howl the OP is getting from his acoustic guitar and shriek from vocal mics.

The first important rule of thumb with a GEQ for room compensation and feedback control is never to boost any frequency. It's not always 100% true but if you start with that you won't cause more problems than you have already.

The second rule is never to assume which frequencies are to be cut, or by how much.

You can only find this out by pushing the system very close to feedback and pulling down the culprit frequency slightly until it stops. (Do this after setting the basic 'sound' for each channel with the channel EQ.) You then repeat this process until you can't push the level any higher without feedback occuring chaotically at random frequencies. The system is now EQ'd for the room.

At that point, I can guarantee the EQ will not look like a smiley face, or probably any even pattern at all.

The 'smiley face' will help a fairly poor-quality PA sound better for recorded music playback, but that's about all I can think it would be useful for without any reference to the room or what's going through it.

Evilmags · August 2014

If you have a digital EQ you can set it up so it will only cut out a very small band of frequencies. On the screen it will look like a sharp inverted peak. You need two of these peaks. Get the guitar feedbacking then sweep the whole spectrum with the first peak. At the frequency of the feedback it will reduce the feedback dramatically. Then place the other peak where the first harmonic of the feedback is. I´ve experimented a fair bit with my Yamaha digital recording devise and monitors, and by doing this can get a lot more volume.

Si_ · August 2014

Just picked up a Fishman Aura pedal as part of a trade deal so hoping that will help me out live.. Reading online reviews it seem sot be perfect for live use.

Lewy · August 2014

The Aura is great but not designed to be used with soundboard transducers/body sensors which if I'm not mistaken are part of the Taylor ES aren't they? You may need to go easy on the Aura's image blend control......... just found this from Fishman: ""Unfortuantely, the Aura is only going to work well with single source pickups. The best results are achieved with single source under saddle piezo systems, like our Matrix. You can also get solid results with soundhole magnetic pickups like our Rare Earth. Systems which blend multiple sources, like the Taylor ES, do not provide usable results with Aura. It is my understanding that the ES systems currently let you disengage the soundboard sensors, and go with just the mag pickup. This may give more usable results with the Aura. I don't know for sure, so I wouldn't be able to say one way or the other. You can still use the active DI and EQ functions, but you would want to turn the blend to 100% pickup, if you were using the blended ES output."

Si_ · August 2014

Bummer.

Although, the Taylor GS-Mini has the cut down ES pickup without the soundboard, it's just a piezo bridge system so might work. I'll give it a go tomorrow and if not I'll just sell it on.

koneguitarist · August 2014

ICBM said:

To be perfectly honest I detest all onboard electrics in acoustic instruments! They are the bane of my life as a repair tech.

Far better to have a passive transducer onboard and do all the rest with an external preamp and DI (separate or combined) in my opinion. It makes troubleshooting and upgrading far easier, is a lot more reliable in the first place, and if something does go wrong it's much easier to bypass it all and get by, even if the sound isn't as good.

If God had meant acoustic guitars to be plugged in he wouldn't have invented the Telecaster .

Good grief that's twice this year I have agreed with you !

koneguitarist · August 2014

mellowsun said:

One of the good things about the Trace Elliot TAP-1 is that it has a notch filter, very useful for getting rid of feedback. I'm sure other decent acoustic guitar DI boxes have this too.

Going straight into the PA is probably asking for trouble, and the Taylor expression system seems to be known for being temperamental.

I hate the trace amps, worst acoustic sound I have ever heard, turns even the best Martin into an ovation !

richardhomer · August 2014

Si_;334185" said:
Although, the Taylor GS-Mini has the cut down ES pickup without the soundboard, it's just a piezo bridge system so might work. I'll give it a go tomorrow and if not I'll just sell it on.

Correct. It is the EST system (as opposed to 'ES' system).

The EST simply an under-saddle piezo with shoulder mounted ES style controls. Until recently, it was the only system available on Mexican made Taylors.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

Comments