Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

Si_ · August 2014

Hi all, just after an hint or tips I can get.. I used my acoustic with the band for the first time (Taylor GS-Mini E), connected it to the PA with the correct cable and all is working, however it sound terrible. very toppy and shrill and it was feeding back like a BITCH, I had to get the volume on the guitar so low to stop it that you couldn't hear it anymore with the band. EQ on the desk was all at noon, and using the 2 EQ dials on the guitar did very little.

Any hints or tips on what I'm going wrong?

Bidley · August 2014

I assume your guitar has a proper onboard preamp? Because it sounds like crappy-piezo-with-no-preamp-syndrome.

Feedback-wise, those rubber soundhole covers can help a lot. Monitor/mic positioning is key as well.

Si_ · August 2014

I believe it has the Taylor Expression System.

John_P · August 2014

I use the Taylor exp system and it sounds great - It sounds like something isn't wired correctly for it to sound the way your describe it.

Si_ · August 2014

I took a straight cable from the guitar jack to an input on the desk, as per the manual used a TRS to XLR cable.

A quick google shows the GS-Mini use the ES-T pickup system.

Si_ · August 2014

Ah.. found this video with might be useful.. I don't remember reading about this little phase switch in the manual.

John_P · August 2014

Mine is the built in system on a 314ce but it sounds loud and clear and I've never had feedback, playing through some loud rigs...

If the pickup is fine then I'd double check the gain on the desk channel is set right and then double check the cable - I haven't checked out the pickup on the GSmini but it shouldn't sound like that.

ICBM · August 2014

Sounds like a desk problem - possibly the channel clipping. That would cause terrible feedback and a nasty scratchy shrill sound, and it would probably make the guitar EQ controls seem to do nothing - since the top-end (and any boomy bottom-end too) would be a product of the distortion, not the guitar signal itself. Reducing the guitar volume below the point the channel clipped would cure it.

Where was the channel gain set? If that wasn't too high it's possible (though I wouldn't think likely) that the input simply won't take the level from the guitar. Is it your PA, and can you test it away from a gig?

streethawk · August 2014

Have you tried it through an amp?

Touch the endpin and see if it quietens down.

If it does you might try contacting Taylor and see if they'll give you a grounding kit.

Si_ · August 2014

It was the Rehearsal room PA so probably cheap and nasty. I con't recall the clip light coming on, but will check next time. Desk gain was at noon.

I'm sure the above might have an influence, but not sure it was all of the problem, I could actually "feel" the feedback in the guitar, I could feel it vibrating. Also seemed to build up to be VERY boomy, and I could feel that in the guitar.

ICBM · August 2014

Si_ said:

It was the Rehearsal room PA so probably cheap and nasty. I con't recall the clip light coming on, but will check next time. Desk gain was at noon.

I'm sure the above might have an influence, but not sure it was all of the problem, I could actually "feel" the feedback in the guitar, I could feel it vibrating. Also seemed to build up to be VERY boomy, and I could feel that in the guitar.

Feedback does make the guitar body vibrate, that's normal - it's getting such severe feedback that's not.

Definitely try the desk gain a long way below noon - maybe even all the way down (depending on whether it's a to-zero scale). Run the channel level (fader) up higher to get the volume you need. It's also possible the clip light wouldn't come on if the input gain stage was where the clipping occured, rather than after the gain control. If that's the case you need to do the opposite - run the guitar volume low and turn *up* the gain to compensate.

It could also just be that in a confined space and at a fairly high volume, you're at the point where the closed-loop gain is above where feedback will always occur though.

stickyfiddle · August 2014

if in a rehearsal room the feedback will be made worse by having the speakers pointing at you (and therefore the guitar), as is often the case in practice rooms. Get away from the speakers if at all possible!

crunchman · August 2014

If your preamp is active, it might put out a pretty hot signal - it may too hot for the desk even with the gain set really low. XLR inputs are normally designed for mic level stuff.

The channel on the desk may have a pad button, or maybe something saying line/mic. You may need to use that.

wayneirie · August 2014

You need a di box, straight into the desk will always be pony.

Si_ · August 2014

I thought the Taylor electronics were Ok straight into the Desk.. at least that's what it advises in the manual..

wayneirie · August 2014

Toppy and shrill, with no body to the sound would indicate, either an impedance mismatch or a phasing issue. To me I think a di would probably solve your problems. At any decent sized gig you'll be asked to plug into a di box. Regardless of whatever on board preamp. You do or don't have.

ICBM · August 2014

wayneirie said:

Toppy and shrill, with no body to the sound would indicate, either an impedance mismatch or a phasing issue.

There's plenty of body, it's giving boomy feedback and a shrill sound which appears to not be controllable by the guitar EQ - which sounds like clipping distortion to me.

wayneirie said:

At any decent sized gig you'll be asked to plug into a di box. Regardless of whatever on board preamp. You do or don't have.

Agreed, which is why I found it a bit puzzling that Taylor should design such a system - but they did, and it does have a balanced output, so it *should* be possible to plug it straight into the desk. This is not the same problem as plugging a standard unbalanced electro into a PA.

I agree that a DI box may fix it, but it shouldn't be necessary to buy one just for practicing in a rehearsal room.

Si_ · August 2014

I'll be using it live from october when the gigs start with the new band so might as well pick up a DI box now as I'll probably need it.. Ill see if that fixes the issue or not.

wayneirie · August 2014

It seems like the same sound you get when you plug an unbalanced cable into a desk channel. So possible fixes would be testing cables used, using alternate desk channel. Testing jack on guitar. I would also look at the battery as well, that it works and it's seated properly. I'm aware it has an on board preamp and desk gain does sound high. I'm merely suggesting possible faults.

ICBM · August 2014

To be perfectly honest I detest all onboard electrics in acoustic instruments! They are the bane of my life as a repair tech.

Far better to have a passive transducer onboard and do all the rest with an external preamp and DI (separate or combined) in my opinion. It makes troubleshooting and upgrading far easier, is a lot more reliable in the first place, and if something does go wrong it's much easier to bypass it all and get by, even if the sound isn't as good.

If God had meant acoustic guitars to be plugged in he wouldn't have invented the Telecaster

.

Danny1969 · August 2014

You won't normally have any problems with a Taylor straight into a decent desk, we use a 6 and a 12 string with the expression system and don't have a prob. I'm a big fan of the expression system it works really well for live and recording

You need to PFL the channel to make sure your not clipping the input channel, some mic pres on a desk have a minimum gain which could still be too high so if so look for a pad or plug the guitar into the line input.

Si_ · August 2014

I'm still having problems with this.. I've been trying it this morning at home, just home levels plugged into the clean channel of my guitar amp rather than through a PA, not at crazy volumes, just standard home bedroom levels and I'm still struggling with feedback, it's almost impossible to us sit without it feeding back really badly.. Even sitting with my back to the amp at the other side of the room..

Danny1969 · August 2014

Is the battery good ?

Si_ · August 2014

I believe so, the Taylor has a battery indicator LED which is showing all is good (it flashes when the battery is low).

Danny1969 · August 2014

Ok we'll the only hassle I've seen before on these is bad jack sockets and ground buzz but it's possible yours had a fault change the battery though anyway and clean the socket by putting some contact cleaner on the tip of a jack plug and push it in and out a few times then see what you have

Danny1969 · August 2014

Sorry for lack of punctuation on a phone

ICBM · August 2014

If it's feeding back the problem is too much level, not too little, so it's unlikely to be a bad contact or a bad battery - but try the battery anyway just to be sure.

Acoustic guitars do feed back badly when played through electric guitar amps usually, even on a clean channel. An electric guitar amp is inherently more compressed than an acoustic amp or PA.

I have seen quite a lot of fault on the Taylor ES, but almost all due to dead transducers, which means it doesn't work at all. One was some kind of preamp fault which made it distorted the whole time, but I can't remember if it resulted in feedback or not.

Honest question, and I hope I'm not insulting your intelligence here (apologies if I am) - are you familiar with playing an amplified acoustic? ie, is this problem something new to you because you've used electro-acoustics before and not experienced it, or is it new to you because you've never used electro-acoustics before?

Electro-acoustics do feed back. I have joked about this I know, but the Telecaster comment is half serious! I used to use electro-acoustics with bands - and admittedly I did use electric guitar effects on them, even including distortion sometimes which very much does not help - but in the end I gave up trying to fight the feedback issues (even with clean sounds) and got a semi-solid electro-acoustic. It can be done, but it's much easier on a big stage with a sound engineer and/or dedicated feedback suppression.

Danny1969 · August 2014

I don't experience any problems with feedback these days, the acoustic guitarist in my band uses a 12 string Taylor and a Gibson J200 and he (due to him being a little deaf) use's an insane amount of stage level of acoustic via the 2 wedges in front of him and there's no problems generally.

Generally if it feeds back too readily then either there's either a problem with the gain staging, or an impedance miss match.

Si_ · August 2014

ICBM said:

Honest question, and I hope I'm not insulting your intelligence here (apologies if I am) - are you familiar with playing an amplified acoustic? ie, is this problem something new to you because you've used electro-acoustics before and not experienced it, or is it new to you because you've never used electro-acoustics before?

Electro-acoustics do feed back. I have joked about this I know, but the Telecaster comment is half serious! I used to use electro-acoustics with bands - and admittedly I did use electric guitar effects on them, even including distortion sometimes which very much does not help - but in the end I gave up trying to fight the feedback issues (even with clean sounds) and got a semi-solid electro-acoustic. It can be done, but it's much easier on a big stage with a sound engineer and/or dedicated feedback suppression.

I've never played acoustic live before, just in the house, so this is all new to me.. and obviously a steeper learning curve than I expected. Usually I've played in typical electric guitar based rock bands, but my new band plays 2 acoustic tracks which is a totally new experience for me. When we're gigging we'll have a guy doing the sound so it may not be a problem, might just be when rehearsing I'm going to struggle.

Might have to keep my eye out for a Piezo equipped Electric instead.

ICBM · August 2014

Si_ said:
I've never played acoustic live before, just in the house, so this is all new to me.. and obviously a steeper learning curve than I expected. Usually I've played in typical electric guitar based rock bands, but my new band plays 2 acoustic tracks which is a totally new experience for me. When we're gigging we'll have a guy doing the sound so it may not be a problem, might just be when rehearsing I'm going to struggle.

Might have to keep my eye out for a Piezo equipped Electric instead.

If it's for rehearsing, just get an acoustic simulator pedal. They're fairly crap but it will let you get the basic sound, as well as a piezo-equipped electric will. To get the proper sound and feel you need something that's built more like an acoustic (wooden bridge etc) and with acoustic strings.

You'll probably find it much less of a problem at a gig - more space on stage, quite possibly lower volume on stage, speakers pointing away from the guitar instead of towards it, separate monitor mix, sound engineer...

mellowsun · August 2014

Can you get hold of a decent acoustic DI box or pre-amp? I used to use one of these, still the best out there imho

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trace-Elliot-TAP1-acoustic-guitar-preamp-peadal-/181294059183?nma=true&si=YTMKYhW1OuQZ2Oza2QdF4DoZwgk%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

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