Martin neck bow

AlbertC · July 2021

I bought a brand new Martin 00-18 in April. The neck/action was fine when I bought it.
I picked it up today having not touched it for about 3 or 4 weeks and immediately saw the action has become very high (5mm+ on low E) and the neck has clearly bowed. Should I be concerned with a sudden shift like this? My other acoustics (kept in the same room) are all fine.
Presumably the shop I bought it would remedy this for free but it's probably a 2 hour 30 min round trip. Should I just by the necessary truss rod adjustment tool and do it myself?

Amigo · July 2021

Over the last few weeks I noticed that all my guitars sounded higher pitched when I picked them up after a while, which I assumed was due to the wet weather of late that followed a rather long dry spell. The necks were not visibly affected though.

ICBM · July 2021

AlbertC said:

Should I just by the necessary truss rod adjustment tool and do it myself?

Yes.

AlbertC · July 2021

ICBM said:

AlbertC said:

Should I just by the necessary truss rod adjustment tool and do it myself?

Yes.

Well that's pretty emphatic!
Cheers, better buy myself the appropriate tool then

Amigo · July 2021

Didn't the guitar come with its own tool?

malcolmkindness · July 2021

That seems like a dramatic increase at the 12th fret, I would certainly be concerned. I keep the action on my guitars about 2.30mm on the low E, perhaps your guitar was very dry when you bought it and is now very damp. Personally I would bring it back to the shop, a truss rod adjustment is not going to sort that out.

guitarjack66 · July 2021

Martins are getting a bad rep these days. This kind of problem is not uncommon it seems.

ICBM · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

That seems like a dramatic increase at the 12th fret, I would certainly be concerned. I keep the action on my guitars about 2.30mm on the low E, perhaps your guitar was very dry when you bought it and is now very damp. Personally I would bring it back to the shop, a truss rod adjustment is not going to sort that out.

Maybe, maybe not. I would definitely try adjusting it first. It does sound like quite a lot, and it's possible the top has pulled up a bit as well. You may or may not be comfortable taking down a bridge saddle slightly yourself...

malcolmkindness · July 2021

ICBM said:

malcolmkindness said:

That seems like a dramatic increase at the 12th fret, I would certainly be concerned. I keep the action on my guitars about 2.30mm on the low E, perhaps your guitar was very dry when you bought it and is now very damp. Personally I would bring it back to the shop, a truss rod adjustment is not going to sort that out.

Maybe, maybe not. I would definitely try adjusting it first. It does sound like quite a lot, and it's possible the top has pulled up a bit as well. You may or may not be comfortable taking down a bridge saddle slightly yourself...

It's a brand new Martin and a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop. Once he starts messing with it he could be in real trouble quite quickly and then the shop will blame him for making the problem worse. Sounds like a "no-brainer" to me, back to the shop straight away.

ICBM · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

It's a brand new Martin and a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop. Once he starts messing with it he could be in real trouble quite quickly and then the shop will blame him for making the problem worse. Sounds like a "no-brainer" to me, back to the shop straight away.

Well, for me it's an absolute no-brainer that you perform a simple adjustment which every guitarist should know how to do and which will not harm the guitar *before* you make a 2-1/2 hour trip which may then be completely unnecessary.

If after that the action still isn't low enough, *then* maybe think about having a professional look at it if you're not comfortable shaving down a bridge saddle yourself.

malcolmkindness · July 2021

ICBM said:

malcolmkindness said:

It's a brand new Martin and a 2 1/2 hour round trip back to the shop. Once he starts messing with it he could be in real trouble quite quickly and then the shop will blame him for making the problem worse. Sounds like a "no-brainer" to me, back to the shop straight away.

Well, for me it's an absolute no-brainer that you perform a simple adjustment which every guitarist should know how to do and which will not harm the guitar *before* you make a 2-1/2 hour trip which may then be completely unnecessary.

If after that the action still isn't low enough, *then* maybe think about having a professional look at it if you're not comfortable shaving down a bridge saddle yourself.

Of course I'd agree with your suggestion if it was a guitar that he had owned for years or just bought second hand, but he bought it new in a shop less than three months ago, surely he has some kind of warranty?

john_uk · July 2021

Seriously, if you are having to ask what to do, don't even think about it...make that 2hr 30 min trip. Wish you all the best

drofluf · July 2021

john_uk said:

Seriously, if you are having to ask what to do, don't even think about it...make that 2hr 30 min trip. Wish you all the best

As someone who has habitually tinkered with stuff until it needs professional help (my motto should be “if it isn’t broken ‘fix’ it until it is”) I’d heartily endorse this approach.

BingMan · July 2021

5mm seems extreme... i'd be hesitant to mess around with it and send it back

ICBM · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

Of course I'd agree with your suggestion if it was a guitar that he had owned for years or just bought second hand, but he bought it new in a shop less than three months ago, surely he has some kind of warranty?

A truss rod adjustment is not a warranty issue, it's a user adjustment.

Would you drive 2-1/2 hours to take it back under warranty if a string broke? Replacing a string is at about the same level of technical difficulty as adjusting a truss rod.

john_uk · July 2021

A diagnosis is always a first quest before any adjustment and an acceptable level of experience is of the essence. Anyone can turn a nut, not everyone understands why! You can't compare the changing of a string to a truss rod adjustment.

Easier to copy and paste an answer..........................................

"The risks when adjusting a truss rod are:

The nut is stuck or you over-tighten and snap/round it off.
You loosen it too far and the relief becomes too great and/or the rod rattles.
You tighten it too much causing back bow.
You tighten it too much and it cracks the neck.

Only the first and last are permanent.

The long term risk is that the last one may not happen immediately. A change in humidity or string tension in the future may cause it to crack weeks or months after the adjustment.

Any neck where the truss rod has caused damage will have had some preexisting defect. If there is no defects present you will be able to over tighten the TR until the guitar is basically impossible to play and not cause any damage. I don't recommend trying it but guitar necks are incredibly strong and generally only fail from impacts or due to defects"

ICBM · July 2021

john_uk said:
"The risks when adjusting a truss rod are:
The nut is stuck or you over-tighten and snap/round it off.
You loosen it too far and the relief becomes too great and/or the rod rattles.
You tighten it too much causing back bow.
You tighten it too much and it cracks the neck.

Snap the rod? Crack the neck? Don't be ridiculous.

You're actually more likely to damage a guitar trying to get a stuck bridge pin out if you don't know what you're doing than by adjusting a truss rod.

People are so ludicrously scared of these things it's untrue, and repeating myths about them just perpetuates it. It's a simple adjustment that anyone who has enough manual dexterity to actually play the thing can do themselves.

john_uk · July 2021

Not much more I can say really...you have all the answers

ICBM · July 2021

john_uk said:

Not much more I can say really...you have all the answers

No, I don't - but the idea that a truss rod adjustment is a warranty issue that can only be done safely by a professional is just stupid. It's a user adjustment that any guitarist can and should be able to do themselves - it's often necessary a couple of times a year as temperature and humidity change. Obviously if you use the wrong tools or go at it like a gorilla then it's possible to cause damage, but that applies to everything you do on a guitar including changing strings. Do you do that yourself, or would you advise getting a shop to do it?

If it matters - yes, if you use the wrong size Allen key then you can potentially damage the truss rod nut. But snapping a roughly 6mm diameter steel rod with the amount of torque you can put on with a hand tool is just not going to happen, so why exaggerate? And the only time you're likely to crack a neck by adjusting one is on a pre-1985 Rickenbacker with the very strange rods they used.

I've been setting up guitars professionally for over thirty years and I can assure you that damaged truss rods are very rare - far, far rarer than guitars which are badly set up simply because the owners have read all the myths and nonsense about how if you turn it a fraction too far the neck will explode or something...

Your own quote goes on to say -

john_uk said:
Any neck where the truss rod has caused damage will have had some preexisting defect. If there is no defects present you will be able to over tighten the TR until the guitar is basically impossible to play and not cause any damage. I don't recommend trying it but guitar necks are incredibly strong and generally only fail from impacts or due to defects"

Which is true.

john_uk · July 2021

ICBM said:

john_uk said:

Not much more I can say really...you have all the answers

No, I don't - but the idea that a truss rod adjustment is a warranty issue that can only be done safely by a professional is just stupid. It's a user adjustment that any guitarist can and should be able to do themselves - it's often necessary a couple of times a year as temperature and humidity change. Obviously if you use the wrong tools or go at it like a gorilla then it's possible to cause damage, but that applies to everything you do on a guitar including changing strings. Do you do that yourself, or would you advise getting a shop to do it?

If it matters - yes, if you use the wrong size Allen key then you can potentially damage the truss rod nut. But snapping a roughly 6mm diameter steel rod with the amount of torque you can put on with a hand tool is just not going to happen, so why exaggerate? And the only time you're likely to crack a neck by adjusting one is on a pre-1985 Rickenbacker with the very strange rods they used.

I've been setting up guitars professionally for over thirty years and I can assure you that damaged truss rods are very rare - far, far rarer than guitars which are badly set up simply because the owners have read all the myths and nonsense about how if you turn it a fraction too far the neck will explode or something...

Your own quote goes on to say -

john_uk said:
Any neck where the truss rod has caused damage will have had some preexisting defect. If there is no defects present you will be able to over tighten the TR until the guitar is basically impossible to play and not cause any damage. I don't recommend trying it but guitar necks are incredibly strong and generally only fail from impacts or due to defects"
Which is true.

If you know what you are doing then go ahead and make the adjustment. If you are having to ask what to do then go back to the shop. Thats the point.
You have turned this whole discussion into a futile argument for arguments sakes. There is no valid point to what you are saying in context to what is being asked...just a futile analysis of nothingness.

You even said to the guy "If after that the action still isn't low enough, *then* maybe think about having a professional look at it if you're not comfortable shaving down a bridge saddle yourself."Why not just ask him to do a neck reset whilst your'e at it.

Truss Rods... I didn't realise I was reading Myths and conveying nonsense !! We will just have to agree that we disagree.
Anyway, good luck with setting up guitars and hopefully making it to 31 years

I'm done.

BingMan · July 2021

I think the other thing here is that it might not just be a simple case of adjusting the rod... It might be being caused by the top bellying or the bridge tilting or something. If you're unsure it'd be worth getting someone who knows what to look for to give it the once over

malcolmkindness · July 2021

BingMan said:

I think the other thing here is that it might not just be a simple case of adjusting the rod... It might be being caused by the top bellying or the bridge tilting or something. If you're unsure it'd be worth getting someone who knows what to look for to give it the once over

Exactly, especially as the guitar is only three months old and presumably under warranty.

malcolmkindness · July 2021

ICBM said:

malcolmkindness said:

Of course I'd agree with your suggestion if it was a guitar that he had owned for years or just bought second hand, but he bought it new in a shop less than three months ago, surely he has some kind of warranty?

A truss rod adjustment is not a warranty issue, it's a user adjustment.

Would you drive 2-1/2 hours to take it back under warranty if a string broke? Replacing a string is at about the same level of technical difficulty as adjusting a truss rod.

You are simply assuming that the truss rod needs adjusting, there is no proof of this whatsoever.
You also seem to be a very rude and arrogant man who likes to argue to no purpose, I have better things to do.

GTC · July 2021

There's absolutely nothing to be frightened of about truss rod adjustments. Just go carefully.

However Martin's factory settings for the low-E is about 3mm - and movement to 5mm sounds excessive and there may be a greater issue in play. You would expect a neck on a new Martin to move a bit in the early stages of ownership - but by less than 1mm.

Before I got in the car I'd ring whoever I bought it from first (a) to register there might be a problem and (b) get their advice on a remedy.

ICBM · July 2021

malcolmkindness said:

You are simply assuming that the truss rod needs adjusting, there is no proof of this whatsoever.
You also seem to be a very rude and arrogant man who likes to argue to no purpose, I have better things to do.

And you have no proof whatever that it isn’t. Why not find out first before wasting everyone’s time?

If you want to hugely overreact to what is most likely a minor setup issue then I’ll argue that you’re wrong. The purpose is to save the OP an unnecessary two and a half hour drive.

We’ve got to a ludicrous level where any minor problem is immediately regarded as a warranty claim when there is no evidence for it at this point. By all means treat it as such if a simple adjustment doesn’t fix it.

john_uk · July 2021

Just when I thought I was done you keep coming back.

And you have no proof whatever that it isn’t. Why not find out first before wasting everyone’s time?

Seriously ...will you not listen to anyone and perhaps understand a little common sense?

If you want to hugely overreact to what is most likely a minor setup issue then I’ll argue that you’re wrong. The purpose is to save the OP an unnecessary two and a half hour drive.

You mean like shaving a bridge saddle if you're comfortable doing so? The purpose is to fix his guitar in a safe manner. You have the priorities wrong, a two and a half hour drive to get your guitar fixed is not too demanding by any ones standard.

We’ve got to a ludicrous level where any minor problem is immediately regarded as a warranty claim when there is no evidence for it at this point. By all means treat it as such if a simple adjustment doesn’t fix it.

We have got to a ludicrous level ??? Who determined that..you?? Was it all evidence based on what you think or are you going to provide evidence based references?? Where do you get all this information??? Do you just make it up as you go along??
For someone with 30 years experience you worry me immensely that you can't reason nor listen to people and you display a complete disregard to everything said. In your own words.......
" If you want to hugely overreact to what is most likely a minor setup issue then I’ll argue that you’re wrong." That sort of sums you up I guess. In fact your nothing more than a common bully ! Stop nit picking on people!

A little bit of info from C F Martin....
Dear

Thanks you for your interest. We warrant our new guitars for life and do not include a truss rod wrench as someone might actually be tempted to try and use it which, in many cases, increases our warranty liability.

Best Regards

Teyeplayer · July 2021

Amigo said:

Didn't the guitar come with its own tool?

And miss add-on sales?

In all seriousness, it is one of the reasons I despair with most guitar companies, truss rod tools and adjustment should be common place to guitarists -in full agreement with @icbm that this should be a simple task that all guitarists are comfortable with. I’d go so far to say, that if the op is not comfortable with truss rod adjustment, now is the time to watch a YouTube tutorial and to try it as it has a huge impact on playability. Then if there is still a problem, straight back to the shop.

Kilgore · July 2021

Truss rod adjustment.

It's the first thing I learned to do on my first cheap Fender acoustic years ago. It's not rocket science, it's a simple adjustment. There are loads of YouTube tutorials to walk you through the process.

If it doesn't improve playability then take it back to the shop if you don't feel comfortable with further adjustments like lowering the saddle.

ICBM · July 2021

john_uk said:

Just when I thought I was done you keep coming back.

I thought you said you were done with this?

To be fair, there is one thing that neither of us have mentioned yet and which I should have, so I admit I missed that.

Check the relief. That will tell you straight away whether it’s the problem or not.

For the OP - this is very easy, all you need to do is hold the guitar in the playing position and fret a string - I use the G since it’s in the middle of the neck - at the first fret and the first over the body (usually 15th on an acoustic). Have a look at the gap between the string and the 7th fret. If it’s about the same as the thickness of the top E string or half that of the G string, or a bit less, that’s fine. If it’s bigger than that (or no gap at all) then the truss rod does need adjusting.

I’m not bullying anyone. I’m saying that advising that what is most likely a minor setup issue requires a warranty claim is a total overreaction borne of the myth that adjusting a truss rod is a difficult or risky job that an owner shouldn’t attempt, whereas the opposite is true.

When I started working on guitars there was no internet and very little information anywhere for guitarists, and things like truss rods had myths attached to them which made them scared of learning that in fact, setting up a guitar is usually quite straightforward and with very few exceptions (eg cutting a nut) well within the ability of anyone with the manual dexterity to play one. It’s frustrating to find that some of these myths are still alive and well, and I want to pass on what I learned the hard way by experience so other people don’t have to, so I will call them out. That is all.

Lewy · July 2021

Adjusting a truss rod is analogous with changing a fuse or topping up the oil in your car. I suppose it is conceivable that someone could do harm if they approached it with absolutely no information and the wrong tools. Theoretically you could take the oil and misguidedly smear it all over the windscreen, or you could smash the back off the plug while it’s still plugged into the wall to get to the fuse holder ….that’s the kind of thing you’d have to do to damage your guitar adjusting the truss rod.

Kilgore · July 2021

john_uk said:

Just when I thought I was done you keep coming back.

And you have no proof whatever that it isn’t. Why not find out first before wasting everyone’s time?

Seriously ...will you not listen to anyone and perhaps understand a little common sense?

If you want to hugely overreact to what is most likely a minor setup issue then I’ll argue that you’re wrong. The purpose is to save the OP an unnecessary two and a half hour drive.

You mean like shaving a bridge saddle if you're comfortable doing so? The purpose is to fix his guitar in a safe manner. You have the priorities wrong, a two and a half hour drive to get your guitar fixed is not too demanding by any ones standard.

We’ve got to a ludicrous level where any minor problem is immediately regarded as a warranty claim when there is no evidence for it at this point. By all means treat it as such if a simple adjustment doesn’t fix it.

We have got to a ludicrous level ??? Who determined that..you?? Was it all evidence based on what you think or are you going to provide evidence based references?? Where do you get all this information??? Do you just make it up as you go along??
For someone with 30 years experience you worry me immensely that you can't reason nor listen to people and you display a complete disregard to everything said. In your own words.......
" If you want to hugely overreact to what is most likely a minor setup issue then I’ll argue that you’re wrong." That sort of sums you up I guess. In fact your nothing more than a common bully ! Stop nit picking on people!

A little bit of info from C F Martin....
Dear

Thanks you for your interest. We warrant our new guitars for life and do not include a truss rod wrench as someone might actually be tempted to try and use it which, in many cases, increases our warranty liability.

Best Regards

I'm fairly certain that Martin only provide a (limited) lifetime warranty to guitars purchased in the US and Canada and only through authorised dealers. They will only accept warranty claims for work carried out by authorised techs. Fine if you live in North America. Not so easy elsewhere.

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