scales help for a novice

Clarky · June 2014

I'm just talking about novice players just taking their first steps into the basic of theory and stuff..

if the piece of music is in C, it don't matter what chords from the key of C are happening, you're still in the key of C..

it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.. the prob is.. they tend not to learn much from it..

EDIT: I feel the need to add to the comment above to ensure that I'm not misunderstood..

there's a lot of us that are so comfortable with music academia, that when asked a question we answer it.. and oh fk do we answer it.. we can easily get carried away trying to stuff everything we know into some fellas head thinking that we're actually helping.. I've done this so many times that folk stopped asking me stuff.. they'd ask "Clarky, give me the short version".. and then I'd still go off on one… so after time, I've actually come to understand that often the best answer to a question is not the fullest one that eventually ends up at sub-atomic levels.. but the simplest one that can actually be understood by the person asking.. which then hopefully sticks with them..

so this.. "it's a piece of piss to blow away noobs with demonstrations of extreme cleverness.." is actually a comment about me.. unintentionally wiping out a noobs brain whilst thinking to myself "yeah.. I really helped that guy".. I'm hoping it's a habit I've killed off now.. which is why I was trying to avoid bring the whole modes mess into answering the question.. a simple question should hopefully get a simple answer..

Clarky · June 2014

mike_l said:

The way the 7th was explained to me was, it's either a major 7 (IE from the major scale), or a dominant 7 (IE from the minor scale).

I understand the difference, but cannot understand that just because it comes from the minor scale that it's dominant.

Surely it would be either a major 7 or a minor 7.

But maybe I just didn't understand the explanation properly.

I do understand exactly what Clarky and Viz have said about the 7th and how it fits in, so maybe the original explanation was a bit crap.

@mike_l

Try looking at it like this. A scale generates chords whereby each note of the scale can be a root of a chord.

before we start, we need to know a few things up front.

intervals and chord 'spellings'

each of these intervals is 1 semi-tone [1 fret] further from the tonic [the starting note] than the next

Tonic

min2nd [think 'the next fret above']

maj2nd [think '2 frets above']

min3rd [3 frets above]

maj3rd

perfect4th

augmented4th / diminshed5th

perfect 5th

min6th

maj6th

min7th

maj7th

we also need to know how to "spell" triads:

major: root, maj3rd, perf5th

minor: root, min3rd, perf5th

diminished: root, min3rd, dim5th

If you look at the C major scale, we can create the chords by stacking up intervals a 3rd apart.

example:

The scale of C is: C, D, E, F, G, A, B

chord I = C, E, G [all of these notes are a 3rd apart basically because I skip a note and choose the next]

the interval C to E is a maj3rd, the interval C to G is a perf5th, so the chord is C

chord II = D, F, A

the interval D to F is a min3rd, the interval D to A is a perf5th, so the chord is Dm

and so on.. you should be able to work out the remainnig triads for yourself..

the killer part is that you should notice that a major chord occurs 3 times, a minor chord 3 times and adim chord once.. this means that when looking at a single major tried in isolation, you can cosider that it has the possibility of belowing to three different major scales.. this therefore means that you have more options open to you than the obvious "C belows to the key of C, Cm belongs to the key of Cm"

mike_l · June 2014

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

Clarky · June 2014

to get the chords of the 7th, you simply stack the next 3rd in the scale on top of the triad you have..

7th chord spellings:

maj7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, maj7th

dominant7: root, maj3rd, perf5th, min7th

min7th: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th

half diminished 7th [aka m7b5]: root, min3rd, perf5th, min7th

so... using the scale of C, chord I7 = C, E, G, B, C triad with a maj7th = Cmaj7

chord II7 = D, F, A, C, Dm triad with a min7th = Dm7

and so on

Clarky · June 2014

you should now notice that things change a bit.. in a major scale there are two maj7 cohrds, three min7 chords, one dom7 and one m7b5.. so when chords of the 7th show up, it starts screwing down your scale options... and as chord V7 only occurs once, you generally [but not always] consider it to be chord V of a given key..

for example.. A7 is chord V of D, C7 is V of F, G7 is V of C..

in the event that you see a dom7 chord, that is not chord V of the key you're in, you still treat it as if it were chord V of the key it should relate to..

example..

progression: Em / D / Am / C7

chords Em, D and Am are in the key of Em, C7 is not. C7 is V of F, so when the C7 is sounding, you can start playing licks / choosing notes from the key of F.. you are now playing modally just over this chord.. you'll be plaing C Mixolydian.. when the progression starts over with the Em chord, you return to the key of Em..

this sort of thing id a nice way to start dipping your toe into the pool of modal playing..

Clarky · June 2014

mike_l said:

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

ahh ok... I thought maybe you was having a bit of agg getting your head around some of the nuts and bolts..

mike_l · June 2014

Clarky said:

mike_l said:

@Clarky cheers dude, I appreciate the explanation, I was really getting at (probably badly) that when the 7th was explained to me originally it was done badly.

ahh ok... I thought maybe you was having a bit of agg getting your head around some of the nuts and bolts..

No worries, thanks again for the explanation. It has cleared the last of the murk.

Clarky · June 2014

I think the killer thing is to learn everything in the right order..

chromatic scale, then intervals, then the scale, then chord spellings.. and then to see the chords fall out of the scale and work out what they are..

learn a little at a time and make sure that each of those lil' things is 100% nailled before moving on.. because each topic builds on the previous and paves the way for the next..

then it'll all make sense and stick

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scales help for a novice

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