scales help for a novice

grungebob · May 2014

Guy's can anyone enlighten me a bit here,

a few months ago I learnt the 5 positions for the minor pentatonic scale and today thought i'd learn the major, problem is the patterns seem identical just in a different order on the websites i've been looking at, I'm doing something wrong right it cant be as easy as the same 5 positions played in a different order can it?

Im that confused im now not sure if it was the minor or major I originally learnt

mike_l · May 2014

The major pentatonic and minor pentatonic use the same shapes. So by learning the minor, you've also learnt the relative major.

IE A minor is C major etc.

If you used the Am pent over an A5-D5-E5 blues progression it'll sound like Aminor. If you used the Am pent over a C5-F5-G5 blues progression it'll sound like C major.

grungebob · May 2014

thanks, its a long road ahead it seems!

JAYJO · May 2014

You have Am pentatonic which is A C D E G

You have C major pentatonic. C D E G A (The same notes!)

Am is the Relative minor of C major . Each major scale has a relative minor.

It is the 6th degree of the scale.

in C major C D E F G (A) B Am is relative

in D major D E F# G A(B) C# Bm is relative

You have learned both C major and Aminor pentatonic and most of the major scale. 2 more notes and you will have all your modes also. If you look at Cmajor scale you are only missing F and B

close2u · May 2014

Hi @grungebob.
Your question prompted me to dig around in my 'web archives' and I found two articles that may help you as they are directly concerned with your situation.
Check these out:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/16904/a-learning-practice-routine-to-blend-major-minor-pentatonics

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/16903/5-positions-of-major-minor-pentatonic-scales-using-caged-or-edcag#latest

grungebob · May 2014

Thanks guys that's a big help!

frankus · May 2014

It's about emphasis - and that's to do with note selection and that's EVERYTHING to do with beats of a bar.

If the key signature is C as @JAYJO's written above, then you'll have C major and it's natural/enharmonic minor A minor in it.

Pentatonic scales are scales for beginners (people use the wider interval stuff and they can be used for great expression... but) - all the corners have been taken off (the semi-tones).

C major : C D E F G A B C - removes the 4th and 7th notes.
A minor : A B C D E F G A - removes the 2nd and 6th notes.

So playing over a C major chord for one bar in 4:4 put the strong notes on the 2 and 4 beats, i.e.
1 _ 2 _ 3 _ 4 _
A D G G D A E E

try to avoid playing the root note on the strong beats (ie 2 and 4) as it sounds too obvious.

or in minor terms

1 _ 2 _ 3 _ 4 _
D D G A E D C C

ultimately all scales are is a tiny tiny instruction for a very finite application like a bit of a kata in a martial art - when someone attacks you with a knife like this react like this to defend yourself... the thing is like kata in martial arts they evolve so instead of "defend yourself like this" it'll be "defend yourself like this then punch him like this" ... then a little while later "block him, punch him, throw him" and "block him, strike his carotid and throw him" or "block him, strike his carotid and throw him then restrain him with this arm lock" or twist his head off.. the point is the pentatonic is the nursery slopes..

All the pentatonic scale is showing you is "if you want to sound melodic don't use the 4th and 7th note on a strong beat in a major scale" and "if you want to sound melodic don't use the 2nd and 6th note on a strong beat of a minor scale" ... once you've learnt with a small set of notes how their importance shifts as the underlying chords change you're ready to explore the risk of semitone clashes.

the scale patterns you've learned have two applications and it'll take a while for your body to let you use it for different things, you'll need to be patient with it... when it does the next step is the major scale and relative modes - the big picture can be learnt in one easy sentence - the details can take years.

Big picture: you can make all the every day modes of the major scale and some of the melodic minor scale - by sharpening or flattening those notes in red above.

Cacofonix · May 2014

Put very simply. Shape 2 of the minor pentatonic is shape 1 of the major pentatonic.

so Am pentatonic is A-C....etc Shape 2 is C-D...etc

Shape 1 of Cmaj pentatonic is C-D...etc.

Welcome aboard the theory express.

In terms of notes in the scale the pentatonic notes are:

Minor - 13457
Major - 12356

Starting on any minor chord, the middle note (the minor third) is the root note of its relative major.

Frankus already mentioned this (with a solo construction analogy bolted on) for Aminor.

So. Say D minor. The pentatonic notes are

13457 of the D minor scale. D, F, G, A, C
shape 2 plays F, G, A, C, D, which is F major pentatonic, I.e. 12356 of the F major scale.

Mark_R · May 2014

frankus said:

Big picture: you can make all the every day modes of the major scale and some of the melodic minor scale - by sharpening or flattening those notes in red above.

And that is where I suffer memory leak, remembering which of those notes is sharp or flat.

Thanks for the essay Frankus, you've got the basis for a good teaching book and encouraged me to noodle about with a different scale this evening.

frankus · May 2014

I wouldn't even bother with the notion of sharps and flats - if it's an unnecessary label - just remember the moods of the scales and the finger patterns that get you there... basically there are at least two minor third gaps (2 frets between played notes) in each pentatonic pattern (3 occurances when they occur on the E string) so it's about planting an extra finger down anywhere in that 2 fret gap, and remembering the results - recalling them emotionally as love or hate is best... just remember that over a different chord that love and hatred may change... should? change

Music is the language, western music notation is a narrative of that language (not even a translation) and these days teaching music theory seems to have people confused about what music is. Music is in the hairs on the back of your neck, the lump in your throat, the unexpected lightness of your heart and the narrative of that isn't even a poor shadow of that, so don't worry about it- worry reduces the ability to experience music.

People banging on about musical illiteracy are often adherents to the notion of "depth of knowledge" compared to "breadth of knowledge". Listen to sub-saharan blues, ursari, klezmer and travel the world

Really pleased you're going to have a noodle ... what is more important than that?

viz · May 2014

Great stuff from everyone. The only thing I would add, which is actually implicit in the comments above anyway, is this:

As has been said, any major key has a relative minor key (3 semitones down). And of course, any minor key has a relative major key (3 semitones up)!

So, if you are playing a pentatonic scale, in a minor key (penta meaning it has 5 notes instead of all 7 - it has the 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, but not the 2, 6), then if you move up a minor 3rd and play the relative major pentatonic scale, you use the same notes as with the minor pentatonic, but you start and end a minor 3rd above, so you obviously miss out the first note of the minor pentatonic, and you add an extra note at the top. And you find you are playing the 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, but not the 4, 7.

So, showing A minor penta with its relative major, C Major penta, the notes are mapped onto one another as follows:

Notes:--A---B---C---D---E---F---G---A---B---C

A min:--1--------3---4---5---------7---1

C Maj:------------1---2---3---------5---6--------1

frankus · May 2014

Mark_R said:

Thanks for the essay Frankus, you've got the basis for a good teaching book and encouraged me to noodle about with a different scale this evening.

@Mark_R did you get to noodle? I just about did for 5 mins in the evening on the Bass VI.

This morning I managed to reassemble an EHX small clone AND do 10 negative pull ups.

Mark_R · May 2014

frankus said:

Mark_R said:

Thanks for the essay Frankus, you've got the basis for a good teaching book and encouraged me to noodle about with a different scale this evening.

@Mark_R did you get to noodle? I just about did for 5 mins in the evening on the Bass VI.
This morning I managed to reassemble an EHX small clone AND do 10 negative pull ups.

I did indeed, I had a piece in Gm which had a small sequence in Dmaj9 so added the Gb to the play over that section, now looking at other chords in Dmaj9 that I can turn this two bar sequence into 4 bars and give it some life

Mark_R · May 2014

So @Francus, if I'm right about this, chords in Dmaj9 will be the same those in Dmaj7, but with the 9, so Em7 becomes Em9 and so on, right? So the piece that is in A and has a small section of Eaug I can add the C to A major major and in effect play Gb blues?

ElectroDan · May 2014

Hi @grungebob

Am I right in thinking you are asking about the actual shape of the scale being the same for major and minor pentatonics?

If so, yes it is right. If you are playing A min and want to play A maj, you can move the shape down three frets and you will be playing the right notes.

An important thing to remember is that the shape has changed it's position relative to the notes. For example, if you are using the first position min pentatonic scale, 'A' will be played with your index finger on the 6th string fifth fret, followed by the flat third 'C' on the eighth fret (probably played with your little finger). Now when you move the shape down, 'A' is still going to be on the fifth fret, but now your little finger is going to be sitting over it. You will play 'A' with your little finger, then 'B' on the 5th string 2nd fret with your index finger.

I hope that makes sense. If not let me know and i'll try again. Of course this rigid way of looking at it is ok just to get the scale under your fingers. But if you like blues/rock you may find you get the most interesting licks from blending the maj/min scales, weaving from one into the other.

Good luck.

grungebob · May 2014

@Electrodan cheers bud that's cleared things up a treat

frankus · May 2014

Mark_R said:

So @Francus, if I'm right about this, chords in Dmaj9 will be the same those in Dmaj7, but with the 9, so Em7 becomes Em9 and so on, right? So the piece that is in A and has a small section of Eaug I can add the C to A major major and in effect play Gb blues?

There are three types of chords Dominants, Major and Minor (says Joe Pass) So Em7 - Em9 - Em11 - Em13 same thing. Dmaj7 - Dmaj9 and so on same thing just with more notes of the same scale... for instance the full spelling of Dm13 (not achievable on a guitar)

D F A C E G B (the whole scale)

The next bit... is keys, non-diatonic chords and trivia... Gb is rarely used as a key, it's got lots of flats and the flat keys are generally used by brass instruments only... that's the trivia out of the way (which I like the most) and onto number-wang.

Something in the key of A is generally something where root note and incidentals make it easiest to read if the sharps are defaulted for F, C, G... I'll be honest I generally use C, G, F, Bb, Eb as keys to play in

Diatonic chords of A

A maj
B min
C# min
D maj
E dom
F# min
G# m7 b5

But there's modulation where the key signature shifts for a measure... which might be happening - the trick is if you know your modes as relative modes then modulation is easier to hear cos the root note sounds the same but all the intervals move around it... modulation is when the root note changes...

aug notes are generally found in the melodic and harmonic minor diatonic chords if memory serves... often found in pieces written in minor keys... because the fifth chord is generally mangled in all keys to be a dominant chord so the cadences stay the same ... fifth degree of scale as a root note to a dominant 7th chord resolving to a major chord with the root of the scale as it's root note.

Mark_R · May 2014

@Frankus so let me get this right, dominant chord of Am would be E7, which could be substituted with Emaj7? Then could I use that Emaj7 as a passing chord from Am to say Cm?

frankus · May 2014

Other people are more qualified to answer that @clarky for instance as this is bordering on classical music theory - I'd say suck it and see

Clarky · May 2014

here goes….

chord V in Am is Em in a diatonic sense

during a perfect cadence in the key of Am, the Em chord is replaced with E7 because is sounds more final.

whilst the E7 is sounding, the scale needs to be modified so that it can handle the G# from the E7 chord

this gives rise to A harmonic minor [Am with a major 7th]

E harm min has a large interval between notes 6 and 7 [F to G# is a sharpened major 2nd - it'll sound just like a minor 3rd]

the alternative is A melodic minor [a minor scale with a maj6th and maj7th] which reduces this big interval to a major 2nd..

the Emaj7 to Am transition has problems

Emaj7 can be:

I in the key of E, IV int he key of B or III in the key of C#m in VI in the key of G#m

so substituting E7 for Emaj7 don't really work on paper..

and having just tried it on a piano, it's note exactly convincing my ear either…

viz · May 2014

Correct, in a minor key, the major 7th on the dominant (V) chord can never work diatonically because it transfigures the Am into an Am Lydian (neopolitan or hungarian minor scales). That's why the phrase "dominant 7th" keeps coming up - it's the natural 7th in the Dominant (V) chord (the word 'dominant' has nothing to do with the 7th per se, it has to do with the V chord) and that Natural 7th LEADS to the Tonic (the root chord, in this case, the Am). - that 7th, the D, is the 4th note of the tonic, and the 4-1 cadence is very natural and pleasing. And on that Dominant (V) chord, it's also very pleasing to have an actual dominant chord (eg E7, which is an E Major with a Natural 7), not a Minor 7 chord, because the Major 3rd in the dominant chord (being the semitone below the tonic (I) chord) is the 'leading note' of the Tonic, and therefore also leads nicely into that Tonic (regardless of whether the tonic is major or minor).

mike_l · May 2014

The way the 7th was explained to me was, it's either a major 7 (IE from the major scale), or a dominant 7 (IE from the minor scale).

I understand the difference, but cannot understand that just because it comes from the minor scale that it's dominant.

Surely it would be either a major 7 or a minor 7.

But maybe I just didn't understand the explanation properly.

I do understand exactly what Clarky and Viz have said about the 7th and how it fits in, so maybe the original explanation was a bit crap.

viz · May 2014

OK @Mike_L, what you have is this:

Each mode, and therefore triad chord, of the diatonic scale is either major, minor or diminished. But when you add the 7th note, the chords become either major, minor, diminished OR DOMINANT, as follows (all based on the key of C):

1st mode (ionian): Cmaj7 (C, E, G, - MAJOR 7th. (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

2nd mode (dorian): Dmin7 (D, F, A, C) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

3rd mode (phrygian): Emin7 (E, G, B, D) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

4th mode (lydian): Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E) - MAJOR 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)

5th mode (mixolydian): G7 (G, B, D, F) - DOMINANT 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 3)

6th mode (aeolian): Amin7 (A, C, E, G) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)

7th mode (locrian): Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab) - DIMINISHED 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 3, 3 - ok this breaks away from the diatonic - the chord BDFA is called the half-diminished 7th, or minor 7 flat 5 and is very unstable.)

So you see, there is that Dominant 7th. It's the only one with a major triad and a minor 7th, and hey presto, it's in the Mixolydian scale, ergo it's in the V position, which is called the dominant chord (regardless of whether you play the 7th or not). Each note in the major scale, and thus the chord that stems from each, has a name - as well as being called I, II, III, V etc, they are also called Tonic, Supertonic, mediant, Subdominant, DOMINANT, sub mediant, leading note, and then back to Tonic. So the Dominant is always the V chord, and if you add a natural 7th to it, you get a dominant 7th chord, and it always leads to the chord a 4th above (or a 5th below) - the tonic.

So whoever told you that was wrong. The Dominant 7 chord is based on the major triad (mixolydian, the V chord), and it has a Natural (or minor) 7th. Its fret intervals are 4, 3, 3, the only one in the set that has that.

mike_l · May 2014

@viz ; cheers, I do get what you've said, and your previous explanation. My non-understanding was with the way thing were originally explained.

viz · May 2014

Yep, thought as much

Clarky · June 2014

viz said:

OK @Mike_L, what you have is this:

Each mode, and therefore triad chord, of the diatonic scale is either major, minor or diminished. But when you add the 7th note, the chords become either major, minor, diminished OR DOMINANT, as follows (all based on the key of C):
1st mode (ionian): Cmaj7 (C, E, G, - MAJOR 7th. (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)
2nd mode (dorian): Dmin7 (D, F, A, C) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
3rd mode (phrygian): Emin7 (E, G, B, D) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
4th mode (lydian): Fmaj7 (F, A, C, E) - MAJOR 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 4)
5th mode (mixolydian): G7 (G, B, D, F) - DOMINANT 7th (Fret intervals are 4, 3, 3)
6th mode (aeolian): Amin7 (A, C, E, G) - MINOR 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 4, 3)
7th mode (locrian): Bdim7 (B, D, F, Ab) - DIMINISHED 7th (Fret intervals are 3, 3, 3 - ok this breaks away from the diatonic - the chord BDFA is called the half-diminished 7th, or minor 7 flat 5 and is very unstable.)

So you see, there is that Dominant 7th. It's the only one with a major triad and a minor 7th, and hey presto, it's in the Mixolydian scale, ergo it's in the V position, which is called the dominant chord (regardless of whether you play the 7th or not). Each note in the major scale, and thus the chord that stems from each, has a name - as well as being called I, II, III, V etc, they are also called Tonic, Supertonic, mediant, Subdominant, DOMINANT, sub mediant, leading note, and then back to Tonic. So the Dominant is always the V chord, and if you add a natural 7th to it, you get a dominant 7th chord, and it always leads to the chord a 4th above (or a 5th below) - the tonic.

So whoever told you that was wrong. The Dominant 7 chord is based on the major triad (mixolydian, the V chord), and it has a Natural (or minor) 7th. Its fret intervals are 4, 3, 3, the only one in the set that has that.

you don't really need modes to describe all this…

you're simply deriving chords from each degree of a major scale..

so if you were in the key of C major, all of those chords would apply.. and if when playing a piece in C, and the chord Am showed up, you would never be playing Aeolian mode.. you'd still be playing in the key of C over chord VI

viz · June 2014

Oh absolutely @Clarky, yes, thanks for clarifying; I'm not intending to imply that you modulate to G every time you play the dominant scale or the dominant chord. My aim was just to point out that the dominant scale, the 5th degree of the major scale, which is called the V, and shares its notes with the mixolydian scale, is called 'dominant' because it is so important in pointing to the tonic, and that adding the 7 to the triad emphasises this.

I thought for those who understand the degrees of the major scale it might be helpful to have all the information in one place - the chord notes, the name of the scale on which they're based, the name of each scale's root note, and the intervals - sorry if I misled anyone!

frankus · June 2014

like here @digitalscream: motivation vs information

I know my music theory but I've skim-read the last load of posts.. TMI IMO, I know clarky has more on tap but I think on the internet noone can see their student go cross-eyed.

Clarky · June 2014

just a little FYI sort of thing....

I see guys that are new to the academic side of music majorly get their lil' nix in a twist regarding modes.. so when I teach all this to my students, here's how I go about it...

get them to learn the chromatic scale first [cos it's essentially learning the alphabet]

then the major scale

derive the triads and 7th chords from the major / chord spelling

the minor scale and point out the beautiful coincidence that the relative minor shares the same pool of notes as it's 'parent' major scale.. being very concious to ensure they understand that Am and C are totally different keys / scales...

when they 100% convince me that they understand the relationship between major and relative minor [especially that these are totally difference scales that just happen to share the same note pool], then getting them to understand modes is just more of the same and actually it then becomes quite simple..

Clarky · June 2014

I think the biggest confusion is folk trying to think in terms of using modes over every chord whilst not changing key..

so in C, when G7 is sounding they think they are playing mixo rather than being in the key of G over chord V.. thinking like that just leads them into a world of confusion..

frankus · June 2014

Well that's confused me!

If I'm playing G7 in the key of C, the V chord is G7 and if the next chord is Cmaj - I'm going to go batshit crazy... if it's not I'll play G lydian dominant or G mixo

But then I grew up not knowing the difference between relative and derivative methods of modes... the two serve vastly different purposes that are essentially the same thing but serve people in different ways..

Relative - good for pitch axis over static vamps
Derivative - good for fast moving diatonic stuff in a known key.

IMO

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