NGD - Finished! custom Avalon L7-390 FC Ziricote/Sinker Redwood 12 fret jumbo Florentine + soundport

GTC · August 2019

Amazaque is referred to as Ovangkol by many makers - somewhere inbetween mahogany and rosewood tonally

thomasross20 · August 2019

That might actually really suit me....
Sapele is a bit brighter than mahogany and is on my Larrivee. I think I prefer it. Just that bit closer to rosewood.
Anyway sorry for thread hi-jack!

earwighoney · August 2019

thomasross20 said:

How does zircote sound, again?? Looks amazing !!!

Ziricote IMO is one of the best sounding back/side sets I've come across. A bit like a premium rosewood for the deep rich basses, but not like a rosewood for being scooped in the midrange - I'd say Ziricote is quite evenly balanced across basses, middles and trebles. Looks superb as well.

Ovangkol is quite common for guitars now, quite a lot of Taylor 400 series guitars are made with it.

thomasross20 · August 2019

I'll have a 12-fret Ziricote with cutaway, please

ToneControl · August 2019

earwighoney said:

thomasross20 said:

How does zircote sound, again?? Looks amazing !!!

Ziricote IMO is one of the best sounding back/side sets I've come across. A bit like a premium rosewood for the deep rich basses, but not like a rosewood for being scooped in the midrange - I'd say Ziricote is quite evenly balanced across basses, middles and trebles. Looks superb as well.

Ovangkol is quite common for guitars now, quite a lot of Taylor 400 series guitars are made with it.

I'm stunned by my small Ziricote/redwood Avalon, lovely balanced sounds, lots of mids, and a high end zing that is completely new to me, and easily the loudest steel strung I own, even louder than my Brazilian/Adirondack Dread

thomasross20 · August 2019

I like the sound of that in a smaller A-body style guitar with cutaway. How does that wood lend itself to fingerstyle?

ToneControl · August 2019

thomasross20 said:

I like the sound of that in a smaller A-body style guitar with cutaway. How does that wood lend itself to fingerstyle?

I play almost nothing but fingerstyle, really & am liking the Ziricote/redwood hugely for that, but remember my ears are not your ears, and I play with a bit of nail, might not be enough treble for someone not using nails - personal preference! Come and try it!

thomasross20 · August 2019

I am temped... I do have some holidays left...!

Kalimna · August 2019

I would also add (and, really, this is not to ignite a 'tonewood' debate) that the choice of B&S wood has much less impact than you might imagine for playing style. It is much more to do with how the builder has finessed the construction of the guitar. This comes from several years of viewing the MIMF forum.

Again, you are more than welcome to try my yew Brook, or macassar Bailey-build.

Cheers,

Adam

TimmyO · August 2019

Kalimna said:

I would also add (and, really, this is not to ignite a 'tonewood' debate) that the choice of B&S wood has much less impact than you might imagine for playing style. It is much more to do with how the builder has finessed the construction of the guitar. This comes from several years of viewing the MIMF forum.
Again, you are more than welcome to try my yew Brook, or macassar Bailey-build.
Cheers,
Adam

http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/hearing/the-guitar-experiment/

TimmyO · August 2019

TimmyO said:

Kalimna said:

I would also add (and, really, this is not to ignite a 'tonewood' debate) that the choice of B&S wood has much less impact than you might imagine for playing style. It is much more to do with how the builder has finessed the construction of the guitar. This comes from several years of viewing the MIMF forum.
Again, you are more than welcome to try my yew Brook, or macassar Bailey-build.
Cheers,
Adam

http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/hearing/the-guitar-experiment/

"Overall our results indicate the species of wood used for the back and sides of a steel-string acoustic guitar has at best a marginal impact on its acoustic properties and perceived sound, and that cheaper and sustainable woods can be used as substitutes of expensive and endangered woods without loss of sound quality. This page presented only a quick summary of the main results of the study. The paper presents the results of additional tests and more in depth discussions of the results shown here. The Leonardo Guitar Research Project, a project that is completely independent of our own study, has so far reached similar conclusions."

ToneControl · August 2019

Kalimna said:

I would also add (and, really, this is not to ignite a 'tonewood' debate) that the choice of B&S wood has much less impact than you might imagine for playing style. It is much more to do with how the builder has finessed the construction of the guitar. This comes from several years of viewing the MIMF forum.
Again, you are more than welcome to try my yew Brook, or macassar Bailey-build.
Cheers,
Adam

Sorry, disagree to some extent
Whilst it's true that a luthier can voice a guitar one way or another with construction techniques, they are only going to be able to change the sound derived from the wood choice by a limited amount

I've bought a few Avalons, and tried quite a few more, the ones made of the same woods sound similar, the ones made from different woods sound different. Same with other makers where I've owned or tried 3+ instruments, and I've have had to sell on certain wood combinations whilst keeping other wood combinations from the same maker

In particular, I don't think Mahogany B+S works for me, I've sold most of my guitars made this way, and expect to replace the last ones

There is always the issue of whether some makers cancel out the effect of the B+S whilst others might build on the effect. I think Nigel Forster (need to check) says that using a laminated back and sides to make the back and side even more rigid works with his designs. Whereas other makers insist on solid back and sides and welcome the effect.

Anyway, I need to play more woods to be sure of my personal opinions

Kalimna · August 2019

Actually, I quite agree with you - it's just that I don't think differences in timbers are such that one can be identified as being good or bad for a particular genre, personal preference aside.

I find the whole topic of guitar (especially acoustic) construction fascinating, both practically and psychologically, and unfortunately an internet forum is not always the best place to communicate nuanced discussion.

If you are ever up in Scotland, I would welcome a chat over a guitar and a beer!

Adam

thomasross20 · August 2019

Let's all meet !!!

ToneControl · August 2019

thomasross20 said:

Let's all meet !!!

I will try to get there one day

GTC · August 2019

ToneControl said:

Kalimna said:

I would also add (and, really, this is not to ignite a 'tonewood' debate) that the choice of B&S wood has much less impact than you might imagine for playing style. It is much more to do with how the builder has finessed the construction of the guitar. This comes from several years of viewing the MIMF forum.
Again, you are more than welcome to try my yew Brook, or macassar Bailey-build.
Cheers,
Adam

Sorry, disagree to some extent
Whilst it's true that a luthier can voice a guitar one way or another with construction techniques, they are only going to be able to change the sound derived from the wood choice by a limited amount

I've bought a few Avalons, and tried quite a few more, the ones made of the same woods sound similar, the ones made from different woods sound different. Same with other makers where I've owned or tried 3+ instruments, and I've have had to sell on certain wood combinations whilst keeping other wood combinations from the same maker

In particular, I don't think Mahogany B+S works for me, I've sold most of my guitars made this way, and expect to replace the last ones

There is always the issue of whether some makers cancel out the effect of the B+S whilst others might build on the effect. I think Nigel Forster (need to check) says that using a laminated back and sides to make the back and side even more rigid works with his designs. Whereas other makers insist on solid back and sides and welcome the effect.

Anyway, I need to play more woods to be sure of my personal opinions

I've tried a Lowden F25 (Rosewood B&S) and F23 (Walnut B&S) and the sound is very different although the only difference is the B&S woods. It could be that the Lowden design exploits the B&S woods whilst other designs normalise it. As GL says "Every guitar has its voice"

I've always thought that I could tell the difference between say, a rosewood B&S guitar and a mahogany B&S guitar blindfolded (an interesting variation on the stork / butter challenge!)

I've always viewed the soundboard / bridge as the sound generator - and the back & sides as a sound processor. However, things are rarely that simple

jellyroll · August 2019

My Rosewood and Mahogany Martin OMs (both Sitka top) are certainly very different sounding.

Perhaps I’m wrong but I find the idea that any reasonably experienced guitarist can’t distinguish between B & S in a blind test quite strange. Not all woods and not all of the time - but sometimes it’s deafeningly obvious.

The research in the link above refers to “guitarists” used in the blind tests. Since the basis of the conclusions is the views of these “guitarists” perhaps it’s the case that their ears weren’t that experienced.

Or maybe I’m just hearing what I expect to hear.

thomasross20 · August 2019

I can definitely hear the difference between mahogany and rosewood, I must say..!

ToneControl · August 2019

jellyroll said:

My Rosewood and Mahogany Martin OMs (both Sitka top) are certainly very different sounding.

Perhaps I’m wrong but I find the idea that any reasonably experienced guitarist can’t distinguish between B & S in a blind test quite strange. Not all woods and not all of the time - but sometimes it’s deafeningly obvious.

The research in the link above refers to “guitarists” used in the blind tests. Since the basis of the conclusions is the views of these “guitarists” perhaps it’s the case that their ears weren’t that experienced.

Or maybe I’m just hearing what I expect to hear.

The "Pro" ones could tell the difference, not sure who the others were